Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Wiseguy]

Cue the posters who let alone dont believe that arrests in both countries constitute a crime family/syndicate but who will now discredit an informant who knew all the guys in the past and present and proclaims it to still exist.

Nothing to see here. No organized crime family at all. Just a bunch of hunches from journalists, law enforcement and informants. They are all lying for their own benefit.

Some bullet points from Ron Fino get you that hot and bothered huh?

And what law enforcement are you talking about? The FBI has never agreed with this ridiculous theory.

[NickleCity]

Some bullet points from Ron Fino get you that hot and bothered huh?

And what law enforcement are you talking about? The FBI has never agreed with this ridiculous theory.

Respectfully, statements regarding each arrest in this case (Massechia, Gerace, Bongiovanni) have indicated the FBI has played a role in the investigation. Additionally, this operation/investigation has been lead, for the most part, by the HSI (Homeland Security Investigations) which I understand to be a law enforcement agency. I won't take the time to pull up each instance but here is an example from the Office of Inspector General which has played a significant role.

On February 28, 2021, the owner of Pharaoh’s Gentlemen’s Club in Buffalo, New York was arrested in Florida following a superseding Indictment charging him with one count each of bribery of a public official, conspiracy to defraud the United States, maintaining a drug involved premises, conspiracy to distribute controlled substances, and conspiracy to commit sex trafficking. According to the Indictment, at various times between in or about 2005 and in or about 2019, Peter Gerace paid a former DEA Special Agent in exchange for the former DEA Special Agent taking various actions to shield Gerace and his business from narcotics and sex trafficking investigations by law enforcement agencies, including the DEA and FBI. The investigation is being conducted by the OIG’s New York Field Office, HSI, and the FBI.

Perhaps the FBI and the DEA haven't taken a lead on this because Bongiovanni was shielding the accused coconspirators from investigation by these law enforcement agencies, and they are being looked into as well. It would be reasonable that they are being looked into as well. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there is culpability in the FBI. But can we trust any organization (especially any law enforcement like the FBI) to truly police themselves and not cover-up improprieties that may have taken place?

I wish they could, and maybe they can, but IMHO it is better for outside organizations to lead this process because of the human tendency to protect oneself and one's organization. Hence HSI and Office of the Inspector General have taking the lead.

Of course this is conjecture on my part about why HSI has taken the lead, but I believe may reasoning to be sound.

What is unsound is to insinuate the FBI believe this is such a "ridiculous theory" that they are not involved in the investigation when numerous reports and press releases indicate otherwise.

[Newyorkempire]

Cue the posters who let alone dont believe that arrests in both countries constitute a crime family/syndicate but who will now discredit an informant who knew all the guys in the past and present and proclaims it to still exist.

Nothing to see here. No organized crime family at all. Just a bunch of hunches from journalists, law enforcement and informants. They are all lying for their own benefit.

Some bullet points from Ron Fino get you that hot and bothered huh?

And what law enforcement are you talking about? The FBI has never agreed with this ridiculous theory.

Like I said. On cue.

What Nickle said and has been said countless times before by others.

The only ridiculous theory is insinuating theres nothing to warrant calling it an Organized Crime Family

[Newyorkempire]

Now cue another 5 threads of Wiseguy trying to dissuade everyone from believing the FBI, RCMP, Homeland Security, Paul Manning, Paul Cherry, Antonio Nicaso, Dan Herbeck, Dominic Violi, Jonny Catz, Pat Musitano, Ron Fino and all the other evidence that points to an Organized Crime Family existing in Western NY and Southern Ontario

[Pogo The Clown]

And none of the above say what you are claiming. And just ignore the fact the prosecutor in this latest case all but publically admitting that there is no structured group in Buffalo.


Pogo

[Newyorkempire]

Was waiting on you Logo. Welcome. "All but said". What does that mean and where is a specific quote where he says that? Oh thats right just another attempt to minimize evidence in order to push your narrative. Nothing going on in Buffalo, just a big farce. When Joe T comes out and admits he has been boss all this time then Wiseguy and Pogo will finally be enlightened. The stamina these two have is impressive, its like they are paid to try and make us believe nothing exists. FBI handlers perhaps? Seeing what they can flush out? One has to wonder what horse they have in this race. Its fascinating.

[Newyorkempire]

Nothing going on in Buffalo. Everyone is lying. It doesnt have to be the same Mafia we are use to seeing in movies to be the Mafia. This is present day stuff. Evolution, mutation, syndicate over hierarchy. This isnt that hard to figure out what exists and in what form. Wise guy and Logo are waiting for the Carlo Gambino of Buffalo to get hit with Rico and 10 captains and 100 soldiers to be arrested before they concede. And even then they'll argue that its not real and nothing exists anymore. Stay true to your beliefs guys, we believe you over all the organizations and people I just mentioned.

[Pogo The Clown]

Not be required to "prove at trial" is a tacit admission that they have no such proof.

The U.S. Attorney’s Office has responded in court papers that it does not have to provide the foundation for the Italian Organized Crime allegations or provide any proof that it exists.

“… the government will not be required to prove at trial the actual existence of the mafia or the ‘existence, structure, and alleged activities of IOC in Buffalo,’” wrote Assistant United States Attorney Joseph M. Tripi, in response to the one of the defendant’s motions.

“It will not alter the quantum of proof in the defendant’s favor if the government were to prove, or the defendant to disprove, the ‘existence, structure, and alleged activities of IOC in Buffalo.’”

https://www.wivb.com/news/crime/italian ... o-you-ask/

[Wiseguy]

Perhaps the FBI and the DEA haven't taken a lead on this because Bongiovanni was shielding the accused coconspirators from investigation by these law enforcement agencies, and they are being looked into as well. It would be reasonable that they are being looked into as well. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there is culpability in the FBI. But can we trust any organization (especially any law enforcement like the FBI) to truly police themselves and not cover-up improprieties that may have taken place?

I wish they could, and maybe they can, but IMHO it is better for outside organizations to lead this process because of the human tendency to protect oneself and one's organization. Hence HSI and Office of the Inspector General have taking the lead.

Of course this is conjecture on my part about why HSI has taken the lead, but I believe may reasoning to be sound.

What is unsound is to insinuate the FBI believe this is such a "ridiculous theory" that they are not involved in the investigation when numerous reports and press releases indicate otherwise.

Yes, these agencies are investigating organized crime activity. That happens in a lot of areas. We have yet to see anything to indicate the FBI has changed its stance on the existence of a present day family in Buffalo. And the indictments that have come forth certainly haven't shown anything resembling an active family. Just what has been described by law enforcement already - people, some of them loosely connected, engaged in Mafia style crimes. But I've pointed this out only about 50 times, right? As far as your conjecture about the FBI, I'm not interested in adding another theory to the ones that have fueled all this from the start.

Like I said. On cue.

What Nickle said and has been said countless times before by others.

The only ridiculous theory is insinuating theres nothing to warrant calling it an Organized Crime Family

I had already seen Nickle's post and wasn't going to comment. Everyone knows what Ron Fino thinks. Fino says a lot of things.

It's when you stuck your worthless 2 cents in that I responded.

Now cue another 5 threads of Wiseguy trying to dissuade everyone from believing the FBI, RCMP, Homeland Security, Paul Manning, Paul Cherry, Antonio Nicaso, Dan Herbeck, Dominic Violi, Jonny Catz, Pat Musitano, Ron Fino and all the other evidence that points to an Organized Crime Family existing in Western NY and Southern Ontario

Ron Fino - already commented on him and his view. Which, which by the way, was there were just some remnants of the family still around as recently as 2017.

FBI - Again, they don't agree with you. Quit acting like they do. It's disingenuous.

Homeland Security - they're simply investigating loosely connected people and their crimes. I realize the "Tell us about the Mafia" tag line gets you excited but doesn't prove anything.

Paul Cherry and Antonio Nicaso cover Canadian organized crime and can weigh in on Hamilton but they hardly counterbalance what the FBI has said. Same goes for the RCMP.

Dan Herbeck - he and the local Buffalo press have reported on the cases surrounding Bongiovanni, Gerace, etc. but the theory they've floated about a resurgent Mafia family has yet to turn into established fact in any way.

Johnny Catz and Pat Musitano - Sorry, did these guys weigh in on all this before they died? Why are you even mentioning them?

Dominic Violi - one of a whopping 2 members of the family indicted in over 20 years. Still waiting for a single one of the "30 guys" he mentioned, other than the dozen or so already known, to be positively identified. Not exactly getting my hopes up.

Aside from there only being a couple members indicted in decades, aside from there only being 12 members (most old and inactive), aside from there being no real real functioning structure, aside from the indictments against Bongiovanni, Gerace and a few drug dealers or conmen with loose connections not showing anything remotely resembling a family, try reading what Coppola, Tony Bruce, Adam Cohen, and Peter Ahearn have said. People who would actually know.

[Newyorkempire]

Wiseguy. You can pitter and patter until youre blue in the face. To me, what you say is not genuine. Now what? Your inability to see that people dont agree with how you narrate evidence is fascinating but means nothing to more than just myself. What are you confused about?

[Newyorkempire]

What horse do you have in this race and why do you care so much of people believe that there is still a Mafia family around?

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy. You can pitter and patter until youre blue in the face. To me, what you say is not genuine. Now what? Your inability to see that people dont agree with how you narrate evidence is fascinating but means nothing to more than just myself. What are you confused about?

I'll tell you now what. Time will go by, everything you and others have claimed, theorized and wished over won't come about, and this nonsense will just fade away. People like you will sneak out the side door, not wanting to return to the topic, or will have already lost interest.

In short, Detroit all over again. Not nearly as many big mouths harping about them as there used to be. Buffalo will be no different.

What horse do you have in this race and why do you care so much of people believe that there is still a Mafia family around?

The only horse is reality. And I loathe mob fan boys who buy into this kind of nonsense because an active family is more exciting than a dead one. That's all this has ever been about and it's just juvenile.

[Newyorkempire]

All im saying is I don't think your analysis and narrative of the evidence is genuine. You can tell me all you want. What dont you understand that not everyone agrees with what youre saying? No one is sneaking out the back door. You loathe mob fan boys so you have employed yourself to fight for justice and make sure we arent fans is what youre saying? Lol what the fuck? That sounds way more sick than being a fan boy. You are on here monitoring peoples beliefs to make sure they believe you and not mountains of evidence. You are really fascinating. Thank you for fighting for justice for all of us in the great pursuit to eliminate Mafia lore. Lol wtf

[Wiseguy]

All im saying is I don't think your analysis and narrative of the evidence is genuine. You can tell me all you want. What dont you understand that not everyone agrees with what youre saying? No one is sneaking out the back door. You loathe mob fan boys so you have employed yourself to fight for justice and make sure we arent fans is what youre saying? Lol what the fuck? That sounds way more sick than being a fan boy. You are on here monitoring peoples beliefs to make sure they believe you and not mountains of evidence. You are really fascinating. Thank you for fighting for justice for all of us in the great pursuit to eliminate Mafia lore. Lol wtf

I'm not sure you even understand the meaning of the word "genuine." What, do you think I don't believe all the evidence I've gone over ad nauseum for years now?

Don't take my word for it.

The lack of indictments over an extended period of time speak for themselves.

The lack of a present RICO case speaks for itself.

What several former Buffalo FBI agents have said speak for themselves.

What the Bongiovanni, Gerace, etc cases didn't show speak for themselves.

That we can only identify a dozen old, mostly inactive members speaks for itself.

The evidence we've put forth actually supports our point. The evidence you put forth doesn't. That's the difference.

Bottom line, you want to there is be a family in Western NY. And, yes, I find that highly annoying. If you want to indulge in fantasy, go to the GBB.

[Newyorkempire]

Wiseguy.

I seriously want to thank you for fighting for justice on this issue. I will now start to believe you, who distorts evidence in order to dissuade others from having their own set of beliefs, is not from Buffalo, monitors "fan boys" but whos moniker is "Wiseguy" to make sure they arent fans and them pretends like he knows how many actual members there are based on nothing, just because a formal record printed by the FBI has not come out recently. I d ont know where Id be without you. Thank you for all your retrospective. Means a lot to me and others. Hopefully your anger for people who believe in different things than you will subside as you mature and get older.