bookmaking gambling

[NewEnglandHere]

has legalized sportsbook put a serious dent into bookmakers? also is there still a numbers racket in nyc ?

[newera_212]

I don't know how anyone could quantify that. There have been threads on it before and it's a pretty good argument coming from both sides. There are some pros and cons for both. Just speaking off of my personal experience, and I don't bet heavy - pretty casual - I personally like betting with a 'regular' bookmaker out of loyalty and also because I can bet on credit and settle up once a week. No taxes. But at the same time, my winnings/losses aren't anything to where I'd have to be worried about getting dented on taxes regardless. At the same time, I like the insane amount of options available on the big corporate apps, the beautiful intuitive interface(s), and the overall ease of use.

My 'illegal' bookmaker's PPH site does now finally allow for in-game betting, but the technology is so far behind what Draftkings has, it's insane. That's the only issue I see... the options and crazy shit you can do with the corporate apps would attract casual 'lottery' type of betters - people that aren't betting the moneyline for the entire day's MLB pitching form, but would love to throw $20 on a a 10 way player prop parlay here and there

I don't have anything to back this up besides anecdotes but I still think super serious bettors use 'illegal' bookmakers - multiple PPHs and multiple books - and bet on credit. I would find it hard to believe that guys who make a living off this, as sick as that sounds, are loading up Fanduel and Draft Kings (although I know there ARE people making big livings off of the Fantasy Sports on those platforms...). I'm talking about the old Sharps here.

As far as the numbers goes...again, anecdotes, but I know a black guy who plays the numbers in Paterson NJ at a Spanish Bodega. That's the only time I've ever heard of anybody in my lifetime and around my age range playing an illegal lottery. An old co-worker of mine from the Bronx who was from the Dominican Republic said her mother use to play religiously up there somewhere as well. So, I think it still goes on, to what scale - who knows - and it seems like it's relegated to immigrant communities.

[NJShore4Life]

I’ve heard from multiple bookies here in Jersey that their business hasn’t been impacted at all from legalized sportsbooks here and we have now had legalized Sportsbooks for three years this June.

Who wants to have to constantly deposit the money into your account and front the cash up front to bet on sporting events?

No one is going to ever want to do that , especially when you’re a degenerate betting on 11 games a day during Football season.

The betting on credit and settling once a week in straight cash with the illegal mob bookies here in Jersey isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, trust me.

-Dante

[PHL_Mob]

In Philly there was a huge numbers bust (Creagh family) which has ties to the Downtown mob. I was amazed at the money they were pulling in so it still is around... I agree I use both legal and street books cuz betting on credit and if I’m outside of PA I can still get bets in without the BS. But you’re right that they just don’t offer what the legal books have for instance with teasers and props etc

[FriendofHenry]

I’ve heard from multiple bookies here in Jersey that their business hasn’t been impacted at all from legalized sportsbooks here and we have now had legalized Sportsbooks for three years this June.

Who wants to have to constantly deposit the money into your account and front the cash up front to bet on sporting events?

No one is going to ever want to do that , especially when you’re a degenerate betting on 11 games a day during Football season.

The betting on credit and settling once a week in straight cash with the illegal mob bookies here in Jersey isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, trust me.

-Dante

Although I'm not a sports better, this is pretty much the same story I hear from the BMs I know from Youngstown. Somethings never change

[PolackTony]

I don't know how anyone could quantify that. There have been threads on it before and it's a pretty good argument coming from both sides. There are some pros and cons for both. Just speaking off of my personal experience, and I don't bet heavy - pretty casual - I personally like betting with a 'regular' bookmaker out of loyalty and also because I can bet on credit and settle up once a week. No taxes. But at the same time, my winnings/losses aren't anything to where I'd have to be worried about getting dented on taxes regardless. At the same time, I like the insane amount of options available on the big corporate apps, the beautiful intuitive interface(s), and the overall ease of use.

My 'illegal' bookmaker's PPH site does now finally allow for in-game betting, but the technology is so far behind what Draftkings has, it's insane. That's the only issue I see... the options and crazy shit you can do with the corporate apps would attract casual 'lottery' type of betters - people that aren't betting the moneyline for the entire day's MLB pitching form, but would love to throw $20 on a a 10 way player prop parlay here and there

I don't have anything to back this up besides anecdotes but I still think super serious bettors use 'illegal' bookmakers - multiple PPHs and multiple books - and bet on credit. I would find it hard to believe that guys who make a living off this, as sick as that sounds, are loading up Fanduel and Draft Kings (although I know there ARE people making big livings off of the Fantasy Sports on those platforms...). I'm talking about the old Sharps here.

As far as the numbers goes...again, anecdotes, but I know a black guy who plays the numbers in Paterson NJ at a Spanish Bodega. That's the only time I've ever heard of anybody in my lifetime and around my age range playing an illegal lottery. An old co-worker of mine from the Bronx who was from the Dominican Republic said her mother use to play religiously up there somewhere as well. So, I think it still goes on, to what scale - who knows - and it seems like it's relegated to immigrant communities.

I’ll second the claim that numbers/bolita is still a thing uptown/the Bronx. I know Dominicans with family running numbers out of their bodegas in Washington Heights/Inwood and the Bx. It is alive and well among Dominicans at least.

[Wiseguy]

Years ago, before there were other sources of credit, mob loansharks serviced a wider clientele. Now it's a more narrow niche, i.e. gamblers, drug dealers, small businesses, etc.

At first, it might seem logical that bookmaking will go the same route. Before, people didn't have a legal way to bet on sports. Now they do. But are those players betting with Draft Kings or whatever long time bettors who have suddenly abandoned their bookie or are they more newer, more casual players who feel they can now play through a legal platform? I tend to think it's more the latter.

When you think about it, not just anyone can bet with an illegal bookmaker. There has to be some kind of connection, introduction by someone else, relationship of trust, etc. That alone makes it a more narrow niche. Add to that it will be the bettor who wants (or has to) bet on credit, cares about avoiding taxes, etc.

Seems to me two different types of players are being serviced, though the illegal bookie will naturally have a more narrow niche. However, as some have pointed out, even if some players are drawn away to legal outlets, some bettors who run out of money but still want to play may seek out an illegal bookie where they can bet on credit.

People may try to draw comparisons to the numbers racket and the effect the legal state lotto had. In New York, there hasn't been a mob-connected numbers bust in a decade. Prior to that, there was at least a few every year. I've wondered if it's a generational thing and the players who bet the number all their lives are dying out. As said above, it seems it's most often found in immigrant communities nowadays.

[joeycigars]

Wine & Spirits are legal , they get bootlegged

Cigarettes are legal they get bootlegged

Weed is legal in a lot places ...bootlegged

all pills that are legal and get you high are bootlegged ,

The same for betting on anything , If you are a betting service that does it right your still doing business .

Your question "A serious dent into bookmakers" yes it did, but its still big business,Your competing now with the States and Indians

[Cheech]

a serious dent? no. has it moved some money out of their arena, sure. not enough as of yet to put them out of business like lotto did the number. i dont think it ever will, not in my lifetime.

[Dave65827]

I forgot which newspaper clip I saw but it had John Alite and some former mob bookie turned chef. He said the average gambler is not the clientele for the mob. Instead it’s degenerate high stakes gamblers with no credit and people that don’t want to pay taxes.

[Wiseguy]

I forgot which newspaper clip I saw but it had John Alite and some former mob bookie turned chef. He said the average gambler is not the clientele for the mob. Instead it’s degenerate high stakes gamblers with no credit and people that don’t want to pay taxes.

That was Angelo Lutz, Philly mob associate.

Legalized gambling won't hurt the mob "because the guy who has no money in his pocket and is betting on the come is still gonna call the local bookmaker to bet. Because he could bet with no money," says Lutz.

Ford, with a straight face (who is the guy advocating for here?), asks, "But won't the illegal bookmakers lose some of their business?"

“Yes. But who cares? [Illegal bookies will lose the] casual bettor," Lutz says. “[The mob] wants the degenerate gamblers to bet with [them]. You’re not looking for John and Nancy Adams to walk in and order champagne cocktails and pomegranate martinis…that ain’t where you draw your money from," he says.

[NJShore4Life]

Legalalized betting has been here in Jersey for three years now and I have yet to use a legal Sportsbook, not once.

I am a heavy sports better, usually betting 1-3 dimes a game everyday , year round. I have been with the same guy since I was a young adult, we have a solid relationship and understanding.

I am a degenerate, always need the action!! Especially during Football season.

LCN Sportsbooks aren’t going anywhere in my lifetime, I’m with Cheech on this one.

Marijuana is now legal in Jersey too and the LCN weed rings won’t be going anywhere either as legal weed is heavily taxed and sometimes double the price on the black market.

They’re always going to find a way to make money here in Jersey and it’s ingrained in our culture, we are one of the most heavily Italian-American states in the USA.

-Dante

[Wiseguy]

a serious dent? no. has it moved some money out of their arena, sure. not enough as of yet to put them out of business like lotto did the number. i dont think it ever will, not in my lifetime.

That brings up a related question. How much, and how quickly, did the legal state lotto affect the numbers racket? I've read conflicting reports over the years. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference there was from 1967 (when the NY lotto was created) to, say, 1987 or 2007.

Similarly, how much, and how quickly, did Atlantic City, Indian casinos, etc. affect the mob's floating card and dice games over the years.

[Wiseguy]

The New York State Gaming Commission recommended these mobile NY sports betting operators be licensed:

Bally Bet
BetMGM
DraftKing Sportsbook
FanDuel Sportsbook
Caesars Sportsbook
PointsBet
Resorts World
Rush Street Interactive
WynnBET
Kambi

Apparently a license comes with a high price. A one-time $25 million licensing fee, as well as a 51% tax on gross gambling revenue.

As for the players, gambling winnings in New York are subject to a 24% federal tax rate, as well as a 4% to 8.82% state tax rate depending on taxable income.

Seems the 24% federal tax is the same for every state, including New Jersey. But the state tax in NJ for players is 3%.

After an initial $100,000 licensing fee, gross gambling revenue taken in by the legal sportsbooks is taxed 8.5% annually in Jersey, plus an additional 1.25% that goes towards tourism and marketing programs in Atlantic City.

[Stroccos]

I’ve heard from multiple bookies here in Jersey that their business hasn’t been impacted at all from legalized sportsbooks here and we have now had legalized Sportsbooks for three years this June.

Who wants to have to constantly deposit the money into your account and front the cash up front to bet on sporting events?

No one is going to ever want to do that , especially when you’re a degenerate betting on 11 games a day during Football season.

The betting on credit and settling once a week in straight cash with the illegal mob bookies here in Jersey isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, trust me.

-Dante

Although I'm not a sports better, this is pretty much the same story I hear from the BMs I know from Youngstown. Somethings never change

We will see once Ohio legalizes it next year . But the betting on credit will always appeal to some people