General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[PolackTony]

One example on how the territorial boss system works...like i previously said, Costello probably expected for LaPorte to talk to Alex and Ferraro and so heres an example of a guy who allegedly didnt follow protocol and how Luzi was introduced....



And few other examples...

Thanks for posting these. Great discussion. Perhaps Costello indeed expected LaPorte to bring the matter to Alex and Ferraro. I personally don't think we can get that from the Costello/Mooney convo though, where to me it seems just as likely that Costello wanted LaPorte to intervene himself, as he was in control of liquor licensing in the Region. If it was just a matter of bringing the beef to Fusco's direct superiors so that they could tell him to knock it off, I still would think that Costello's capodecina could do that himself. In the Alderisio/Luzi thing you posted, it seems to me that Alex's issue was that one of LaPorte's "buttons" brought the matter to them without going through his capo (LaPorte), violating the protocol regarding the chain of command. If the chain of comman went Costello -> Costello's capo -> LaPorte, then that could've been an issue for Costello's complaint. I don't see that this was necessarily the case though. I'd imagine that Costello or Giancana would've mentioned this if this were the problem. Also, given that Costello twice described his superior specifically as a "capodecina" (just to make it clear that it's not me putting words in his mouth!), I'd also imagine that his capo would have the prerogative to advocate for one of his guys to another capo or the admin (hard to imagine how he would be a "capo" if he didnt have that right). When LaPorte wasn't responding to Costello's entreaties for assistance, Costello's capo told him to go to Giancana to get the beef with Fusco straightened out.

One of things that continues to make these questions challenging, is how to square a formal rank like "capodecina" with terms like "district boss", "ward boss", "territorial boss", "crew boss". I still wonder how much terms were like district boss were used within the actual "Chicago LCN family". While sometimes this was likely just casual street usage (e.g., calling Lombardo the "boss" of Grand Ave, etc.), along the lines of New York guys calling someone a "captain" or "skipper", I'm always wary that some of this nomenclature could have been imposed by LE. An example was the description of Vince Solano as a "territorial boss" attributed to Joe Eto. Was this the term actually used by Eto to describe Solano, or a term imposed by the FBI in their interrogations of Eto and in preparing his testimony for court? The question becomes all the more tricky when we consder sources that weren't made vs. made guys. Whatever the truth was about these terms, it's notable that neither Costello nor Giancana use them (neither did their mysterious Italian interlocutor, of course). Instead they use formal, precise LCN terms like capodecina and avvocato. This would make sense, given that this was a beef between two made guys being arbited by the boss of the family.

The fact that Curry answered to LaPorte I don't think really bears on this discussion one way or the other, as he was not a made guy (as Mooney would've said: "he ain't in the clique").

[Villain]

Yep, this was the passage that I was quoting from of course. LaPorte was living in Cali at the time and thus was not in Chicago to intervene on Costello's behalf with Fusco. The reason why I still am on the fence is that I don't see how what was actually stated in this conversation necessarily entails that LaPorte outranked whoever Costello's capodecina was, in the formal sense of a chain of command that would be implied by the territorial boss theory. To me all of this could just as well be consistent with LaPorte's input being necessary because he had tons of political clout in the "Region" and controlled liquor licensing. In other words, to me, this doesn't prove that LaPorte was Costello's boss's boss, rather than both being formal equals (even if LaPorte was "first among equals", just in terms of the sort of de facto power he wielded) and both answering as capos to Giancana. I know that you draw on lots of different lines of reasoning to support your theory, my point being that this convo isn't sufficient to make a closed case.

It goes without saying that I'm bringing this up to play Devil's "avougat", as debate on these things can only serve to clarify our arguments and contribute to a better understanding of what will remain a somewhat murky and opaque topic.

Yes, I agree that this particular info doesnt close the case but instead its just one addition to the numerous examples that I already presented in the past. Off the top of my head...another good example is when Battaglia told both Amabile and Nick Palermo to answer to Pranno who in turn controlled all western suburbs for the Battaglia aka west side faction.

Recently, Snakes gave me another idea in which he labelled these territorial bosses as "group bosses", meaning there was a group of capos and crew bosses within one faction and one of them was either first among equals or as you already stated, that same capo held more connections and obviously had more seniority then the rest of the guys in that same group, but examples like the "Battaglia" one say otherwise. We also have same situation within the North Side faction with Solano and DiVarco, or in the South Side faction with Alex and Caruso. We can see the same situation with LaPorte and Costellos capo.

In addition, Accardo also used the term "avougat" to describe Lanskys role on the national commission.

[Villain]

I agree. I think that the South Suburban faction of the Outfit (as with the Northside) has gotten short shrift and there's still plenty we don't really know and understand about them. An important area that hasn't really been grappled with enough centers on their connections to Italy and (the likely associated networks of) narcotics trafficking. There's that one pic that Matt Luzi had of the Heights bosses hanging out with their "amici" in Calabria. My personal suspicion is that the Ruberto/Emery/LaPorte group had close ties to what became the infamous 'Ndrangheta clans of the Simbario/Nicastro area. The local "Picciotteria" was already well-established there by the late 19th century and included a clan boss by the name of Antonio Ruberto.

Nice thinking. We also have the same situation when Morgano got deported, meaning Zizzo used to send cash to Italy with the help of North Side member Ernest Sansone which completely makes sense since Morgano was a former member of the old North Side faction. But in Robertos case, we have capos going back and forth to Italy, meaning they didnt send bagmen but instead they went there personally and they did the same thing for 3 decades.

[Villain]

Thanks for posting these. Great discussion. Perhaps Costello indeed expected LaPorte to bring the matter to Alex and Ferraro. I personally don't think we can get that from the Costello/Mooney convo though, where to me it seems just as likely that Costello wanted LaPorte to intervene himself, as he was in control of liquor licensing in the Region. If it was just a matter of bringing the beef to Fusco's direct superiors so that they could tell him to knock it off, I still would think that Costello's capodecina could do that himself. In the Alderisio/Luzi thing you posted, it seems to me that Alex's issue was that one of LaPorte's "buttons" brought the matter to them without going through his capo (LaPorte), violating the protocol regarding the chain of command. If the chain of comman went Costello -> Costello's capo -> LaPorte, then that could've been an issue for Costello's complaint. I don't see that this was necessarily the case though. I'd imagine that Costello or Giancana would've mentioned this if this were the problem. Also, given that Costello twice described his superior specifically as a "capodecina" (just to make it clear that it's not me putting words in his mouth!), I'd also imagine that his capo would have the prerogative to advocate for one of his guys to another capo or the admin (hard to imagine how he would be a "capo" if he didnt have that right). When LaPorte wasn't responding to Costello's entreaties for assistance, Costello's capo told him to go to Giancana to get the beef with Fusco straightened out.

One of things that continues to make these questions challenging, is how to square a formal rank like "capodecina" with terms like "district boss", "ward boss", "territorial boss", "crew boss". I still wonder how much terms were like district boss were used within the actual "Chicago LCN family". While sometimes this was likely just casual street usage (e.g., calling Lombardo the "boss" of Grand Ave, etc.), along the lines of New York guys calling someone a "captain" or "skipper", I'm always wary that some of this nomenclature could have been imposed by LE. An example was the description of Vince Solano as a "territorial boss" attributed to Joe Eto. Was this the term actually used by Eto to describe Solano, or a term imposed by the FBI in their interrogations of Eto and in preparing his testimony for court? The question becomes all the more tricky when we consder sources that weren't made vs. made guys. Whatever the truth was about these terms, it's notable that neither Costello nor Giancana use them (neither did their mysterious Italian interlocutor, of course). Instead they use formal, precise LCN terms like capodecina and avvocato. This would make sense, given that this was a beef between two made guys being arbited by the boss of the family.

The fact that Curry answered to LaPorte I don't think really bears on this discussion one way or the other, as he was not a made guy (as Mooney would've said: "he ain't in the clique").

As I previously stated, whenever Fusco had a problem, he went straight either to Alex or Ferraro. But if look at another example in which involves Caruso, he first went to Marcy who in turn went to Alex or Ferraro which again gives suspicion on whether Fusco previously held some high position within the organization.

Regarding the Alex/Luzi story, we dont know if that individual was a button or capo or even a simple associate. I also believe that you already gave the answer on your own, meaning LaPorte wasnt responding and so Costellos capo told him to go straight to the boss. This situation might be explained with the Caruso example or situations on the North Side in which guys first went to DiVarco who in turn later went to Prio or Solano. DiVarco didnt go straight to Giancana, Battaglia or Aiuppa but instead he went to his territorial or group boss who later went to the boss.

Again interesting thoughts on those terms like district boss but we should not take that same term as actual boss of one or two districts. For example Alex controlled whole areas but was labelled as district boss.

Regarding Curry....he controlled one of the largest areas and also most lucrative operations for the Chi Heights faction and was very close associate of Ricca but above all, Curry had more than few made guys under his rule for quite a long time, operational or not. When Curry died in 1970, none of the made guys took over his coin ops but instead they were inherited by his son and everything was approved by the bosses aka Ricca, Accardo and LaPorte.

[southside tony]

Here's a name worth checking on, V.J.Mamolella.(spelling may be off a bit)He operates a salvage auto parts yard in Chicago. I hear his name come up often in certain circles

[Villain]

Here's a name worth checking on, V.J.Mamolella.(spelling may be off a bit)He operates a salvage auto parts yard in Chicago. I hear his name come up often in certain circles

Cool info and thanks bud but i think that you should re-post that same info in this thread....

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6465&hilit=current+chicago+players

[Villain]

In addition, heres one small part of Eto's testimony which PolackTony previously referred to...



And these two which were given by the feds...i hope they r visible...

[Villain]

In addition, Eto mentioned Pilotto as one of the territorial bosses and on top of that, he also mentioned LaPietra and Ferriola at the same time, well when Eto became informant, Pilotto was already in jail and so it is obvious that Eto wasnt aware regarding the changes that occurred after that.

Tocco was made in 1983 and was sponsored by Palermo who in turn was either an infulential soldier or some type of capo who previously served under territorial boss or Pilotto by inheriting Catuaras previous position..

We have reports that from the late 1970s onward, the so-called Cicero or Ferriola crew began entering the Chicago heights area and it seems that after Pilotto's and LaPietra's imprisonments, the whole invasion possibly intensified and by 1984/85, Ferriola possibly received jurisdiction over the Heights faction, the same way the Heights faction previously had jurisdiction over nw Indiana, meaning Eto obviously witnessed Ferriolas rise (Zizzo also died around this time). Thats why Betty Tocco said that her husband was afraid of being killed by Ferriola and thats why during the mid and late 1990's Monteleone (originally a Cicero guy) and Spano Sr also had interests around Chicago Heights and Nw Indiana, especially in the vending and poker machine businesses and union locals that were stationed in those same areas.

[Snakes]

I think that guys who went to prison (Pilotto, LaPietra, Lombardo) still held their capo status. Upon their release, other guys acted as capos of those crews because of parole restrictions that limited interactivity with street guys or felons.

However, in Pilotto's case there was nothing to come back to when he got out.

I think that other crews having interests in the Heights is merely them obtaining an interest or partnership in rackets or businesses in those locations as opposed to any supervisory or jurisdictional position. I know there are newspaper clippings out there that hint at that but based on the files that I have, it would seem to indicate that the Heights still operated as independent crew. This doesn't rule out someone like Ferriola being a funnel for money from that crew to the bosses, though. We also don't know the true circumstances of why Tocco would be fearful of Ferriola. Perhaps Ferriola was tasked with supervising the disposal of the bodies and handed them off to Tocco for final burial? If so, he had every right to have been displeased with the way the burial was handled and could have petitioned Carlisi to have Tocco killed for screwing it up, hence the fear on Tocco's part.

[Villain]

I think that guys who went to prison (Pilotto, LaPietra, Lombardo) still held their capo status. Upon their release, other guys acted as capos of those crews because of parole restrictions that limited interactivity with street guys or felons.

However, in Pilotto's case there was nothing to come back to when he got out.

I think that other crews having interests in the Heights is merely them obtaining an interest or partnership in rackets or businesses in those locations as opposed to any supervisory or jurisdictional position. I know there are newspaper clippings out there that hint at that but based on the files that I have, it would seem to indicate that the Heights still operated as independent crew. This doesn't rule out someone like Ferriola being a funnel for money from that crew to the bosses, though. We also don't know the true circumstances of why Tocco would be fearful of Ferriola. Perhaps Ferriola was tasked with supervising the disposal of the bodies and handed them off to Tocco for final burial? If so, he had every right to have been displeased with the way the burial was handled and could have petitioned Carlisi to have Tocco killed for screwing it up, hence the fear on Tocco's part.

We cant believe that the Ferriola crew entered the Chi Heights area but we can believe that Tocco was made in 83 and instantly bumped to a capo position who also had jurisdiction over Indiana?

I dont know what your files say but what about the extortions and wreckings that occurred during the early 80s around the Heights area and C City? The same situation occurred back during the late 60s when Buccieri tried to enter LaPortes territory. It wasnt like they were obtaining an interest or partnership in rackets, but instead it looked like an invasion.

[Snakes]

I think that guys who went to prison (Pilotto, LaPietra, Lombardo) still held their capo status. Upon their release, other guys acted as capos of those crews because of parole restrictions that limited interactivity with street guys or felons.

However, in Pilotto's case there was nothing to come back to when he got out.

I think that other crews having interests in the Heights is merely them obtaining an interest or partnership in rackets or businesses in those locations as opposed to any supervisory or jurisdictional position. I know there are newspaper clippings out there that hint at that but based on the files that I have, it would seem to indicate that the Heights still operated as independent crew. This doesn't rule out someone like Ferriola being a funnel for money from that crew to the bosses, though. We also don't know the true circumstances of why Tocco would be fearful of Ferriola. Perhaps Ferriola was tasked with supervising the disposal of the bodies and handed them off to Tocco for final burial? If so, he had every right to have been displeased with the way the burial was handled and could have petitioned Carlisi to have Tocco killed for screwing it up, hence the fear on Tocco's part.

We cant believe that the Ferriola crew entered the Chi Heights area but we can believe that Tocco was made in 83 and instantly bumped to a capo position who also had jurisdiction over Indiana?

I dont know what your files say but what about the extortions and wreckings that occurred during the early 80s around the Heights area and C City? The same situation occurred back during the late 60s when Buccieri tried to enter LaPortes territory. It wasnt like they were obtaining an interest or partnership in rackets, but instead it looked like an invasion.

Maybe, but I don't believe that Tocco was instantly bumped to capo!

[PolackTony]

In addition, heres one small part of Eto's testimony which PolackTony previously referred to...



And these two which were given by the feds...i hope they r visible...

Thanks for posting. I’ve always found Eto’s whole story fascinating, of course. I’d really like to know the terms Eto himself would’ve used for the ranks (not that they necessarily still would’ve been the same that made guys would’ve used within “the clique”). Terms like “boss of bosses” and territorial boss smack to me of an LE perspective. Another thing to add is that the Feds had Eto as referring to Civella as the “territorial boss” of KC. Assuming that this wasn’t Eto’s own term, the Feds were either using this term imprecisely, or they really saw the large Chicago “street crews” as something like their own families.

With Joey DiVarco, even in one of the Fed accounts they note that him being a capo answering to another capo was highly unusual. One thing to keep in mind is that DiVarco had been the natural next in line to take over after DiBella died. So I wonder if DiVarco had been bumped up to capo under Prio already, or if he only was when Solano got the spot, as a way of formally recognizing DiVarco’s status and seniority (like a consolation prize, basically).

[PolackTony]

I think that guys who went to prison (Pilotto, LaPietra, Lombardo) still held their capo status. Upon their release, other guys acted as capos of those crews because of parole restrictions that limited interactivity with street guys or felons.

However, in Pilotto's case there was nothing to come back to when he got out.

I think that other crews having interests in the Heights is merely them obtaining an interest or partnership in rackets or businesses in those locations as opposed to any supervisory or jurisdictional position. I know there are newspaper clippings out there that hint at that but based on the files that I have, it would seem to indicate that the Heights still operated as independent crew. This doesn't rule out someone like Ferriola being a funnel for money from that crew to the bosses, though. We also don't know the true circumstances of why Tocco would be fearful of Ferriola. Perhaps Ferriola was tasked with supervising the disposal of the bodies and handed them off to Tocco for final burial? If so, he had every right to have been displeased with the way the burial was handled and could have petitioned Carlisi to have Tocco killed for screwing it up, hence the fear on Tocco's part.

We cant believe that the Ferriola crew entered the Chi Heights area but we can believe that Tocco was made in 83 and instantly bumped to a capo position who also had jurisdiction over Indiana?

I dont know what your files say but what about the extortions and wreckings that occurred during the early 80s around the Heights area and C City? The same situation occurred back during the late 60s when Buccieri tried to enter LaPortes territory. It wasnt like they were obtaining an interest or partnership in rackets, but instead it looked like an invasion.

This is another hard question as the same set of evidence could fit more than one explanation. Snakes makes a good point, that Tocco fucking up the Spilotro burials would be enough for him to fear for his life. My understanding is that following Lombardo’s imprisonment Ferriola was installed as street boss. Thus he was the “chief enforcer” and Tocco would have good reason to fear the reaper, even if Ferriola wasn’t trying to muscle in down in the Region.

[Coloboy]

I also find it interesting that in Eto’s testimony he does not list Carlisi or Difronzo as Territorial bosses with the others.

Do we think this is because from a technical perspective those areas were still looked over by Cerone and Aiuppa respectively?

[Coloboy]

....especially when a short 2 years later those 2 men would become the boss and underboss over the whole organization