Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

Also we have discussed this before but the 5 New Orleans members left in 1968 info is almost certainly incorrect.

We did discuss it before and if anyone is interested they can read point-by-point why you have little basis for challenging Scarpa and Colombo's claim that NO had 5 members in 1968:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6536

It is not little basis when we can name more than 5 living members in 1968.


Pogo

Not really. The FBI put out a list of suspected members while we had a member- a NY boss no less- state they only had only 5. He would be in a position to know since Bosses kept in contact.

These Families have organizational and operational, with associates working in what we outsiders would see as high positions, it doesn't make them members within the realm of their organization. They either went through the ceremony and are recognized as members or they are not. It's grey to us on the outside looking in but it's not to them, it means something. We seen in Chicago that alot of suspected members turned out to actually be not a member when we had a member ID'ing who was what.

We can't have it both ways, we get at one guy (Scott) for listing every (Detroit) operative as a member (a fallacy) and then argue it can't be an organization when its membership is too low and doesn't fit the New York Model that we outsiders ascribe to a Mafia Organization. Cleveland in 1985 had less than 10 active members running what was a 200+ manned conspiracy across the state of Ohio.

--

This reminds me of an old friend, a fellow researcher who became disenfranchised with researching this because the mob's current crop of crime didn't jive with what he envisioned theeee mayfiaaaa to be. He'd call me like he was personally offended that Scarpa had a Puerto Rican associate- "It's over! It's over!" And I'd listen and nod my head until one day I yelled at him- "if you're done be done, quit bitching." The Mafia doesn't owe us shit. Out of every damn informant tell all since Valachi, one thing we don't see if them sitting down with judges and controlling obscene amounts of money or government contracts. Maybe some of us need to curb our enthusiasm and see things for what they are. The mob is like Disneyworld, it skirts on its reputation but when you go the parks it's not like the commercial of going down a slide, then doing something amazing with an orgasmic look on a father's face while his kids laugh. It's waiting in line for 5 hours to go on a 2 minute ride while the little bastards tug on your shirt and ask if they're there yet.

[Pogo The Clown]

You are assuming of course that was what Colombo was told (if he was even told first hand to begin) what he told Scarpa and what Scarpa told his handler and what the handler told the typist and there was no miscommunication, misinterpretation or misremembering somewhere along the line. As I said before Scarpa once told the FBI that the Profaci family had 400 made members and that was how own family so he was prone to mistakes and passing on wrong information.


Carlos Marcello, Joe Marcello, Sam Carolla, Antohny Carolla, Giuseppe Gagliano, Frank Gagliano and Jimmy Campo were members in 1968. That is more than five. As I said before it would be very strange indeed for generational attrition to kill off all the soldiers but leave the Boss, UnderBoss, Consigliere, a former Boss and former UnderBoss still alive. As we've seen with other families attrition hits the leadership just as hard if not harder since they to tend to be older to begin with.


The FBI listed 33 members in 1968. Even if we stipulate they were wrong on some or even most of them it stretches credulity to believe that they would have been wrong on 28 of the 33 names they had listed as members.


Kind of ironic though that when the Feds DO list a family as having 30 members you guys are arguing that they got it wrong and the family was really over 3/4 smaller.


Pogo

[B.]

Move the New Orleans stuff here where Pogo was already proven wrong by the FBI's own documents:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6536&p=186928#p186928

[Angelo Santino]

I'm not assuming, you are. Colombo said NO had 5 members, like Violi said Buffalo had 30. Their own members are much better placed than we- or the FBI w/o informants- to know. It's their organization, they are under no obligation to make it make sense to us.

[B.]

It comes down to whether or not you want to treat information fairly.

The idea that a family could end up with five total members, three of which are the administration, only to induct new members and still exist over 30 years later when DiLeonardo said he had the opportunity to meet a New Orleans member doesn't match bogus narratives and invented formulas for "what constitutes a viable mafia crime family."

It especially won't be treated fairly if it's used in a discussion about the Buffalo group.

[Wiseguy]

We can't have it both ways, we get at one guy (Scott) for listing every (Detroit) operative as a member (a fallacy) and then argue it can't be an organization when its membership is too low and doesn't fit the New York Model that we outsiders ascribe to a Mafia Organization. Cleveland in 1985 had less than 10 active members running what was a 200+ manned conspiracy across the state of Ohio.

I'm not sure that's "having it both ways."

Scott played fast and loose with his charts over the years, leading them to grow exponentially in size and hierarchical complexity. As you well know, this led to a lot of heated debates and only later on did he admit not everyone on his charts was made. But even then, he still maintained Detroit has 30-40 members, which is ridiculous. As I recently mentioned, it appears Detroit very well may be in single digits.

On the flip side, I've never claimed there was some specific membership number, above which a family is viable and below which it's not. But it goes without saying when the numbers get small enough to have difficulty staffing even a basic hierarchy, the viability is in question. Especially when there's a lack of activity to go along with a lack of organization.

And, considering the feds had written Cleveland off by the early 1990s, they were obviously on their last legs 5 years before.

[cavita]

What constitutes a lack of activity?

[B.]

What constitutes a lack of activity?

Inducting members, promoting underbosses, contacting NYC leaders, making introductions to NYC members, drug dealing, random scams, unsolved murders.

[Dave65827]

With all do respect to you guys and I get your guises points but this is going no where. This is like the 20th page on whether a Criminal organization exists or not and then you gut guys going at with insults. This is like borderline Boka Breeze levels


I’m not personally sold either way but I’m waiting for more information to come out that’s all you can do right now.

But shout-out Nickelcity I like the posts man keep it up

[johnny_scootch]

With all do respect to you guys and I get your guises points but this is going no where. This is like the 20th page on whether a Criminal organization exists or not and then you gut guys going at with insults.

Out the mouths of babes.

[Wiseguy]

What constitutes a lack of activity?

When you cease seeing ongoing activity that's in behalf of, and directed by, an LCN family. This is RICO 101 stuff here. The FBI made the distinction 15 years ago, and just recently, that there's a difference between an organized criminal syndicate like the Mafia (organized crime) and groups of individuals who are getting together to commit Mafia-style crimes (criminal enterprise).

This distinction perfectly describes Gerace and the handful of other loosely connected guys recently charged in the Bongiovanni investigation. But because Gerace is Todaro's nephew, and some of the others have been identified as mob associates (whatever that means in Buffalo today), people are only too happy to assume this is further evidence of a resurgent organization. Nevermind any of this has yet to result in an LCN-style indictment. The Bongiovanni-Gerace case is as telling for what it doesn't say as much as what it does.

Inducting members, promoting underbosses, contacting NYC leaders, making introductions to NYC members, drug dealing, random scams, unsolved murders.

There you go again leaving out the context. Disingenuous.

With all do respect to you guys and I get your guises points but this is going no where. This is like the 20th page on whether a Criminal organization exists or not and then you gut guys going at with insults. This is like borderline Boka Breeze levels


I’m not personally sold either way but I’m waiting for more information to come out that’s all you can do right now.

But shout-out Nickelcity I like the posts man keep it up

This will end the same way the old Detroit debates did. These cases, such as they are, will be wrapped up and the local Buffalo media will move onto other things. Violi will prove to be an anomaly. An unusually big one but an anomaly nonetheless. The 20 unidentified members he mentioned will remain as such - ghosts. Apparently inactive ghosts. Todaro will keep making pizza. The dozen aged and inactive members we can identify will continue to die off. And the resurgent theory will run out of steam with enough time gone by. Though I imagine NickleCity will do his best to keep the hope train going as long as possible.

As I said before, Christie has probably made the best argument - but its essentially a different argument. If people want to go with the criteria that as long as there's a single guy breathing and he's recognized by members in other families, that's one thing. Going with that definition, we apparently still have 1 man families in Pittsburgh, New Orleans, and St. Louis. By this definition, Buffalo obviously never died out to begin with. But the limitations of this approach should be obvious, as well as the fact it leans heavily on theory more than real world practicality.

I'm not a Mafia member so I'm not necessarily beholden to Cosa Nostra criteria alone. I can judge it from the outside looking in and go with how law enforcement sizes things up.

[B.]

I'm not a Mafia member so I'm not necessarily beholden to Cosa Nostra criteria alone. I can judge it from the outside looking in and go with how law enforcement sizes things up.

This should etched in bronze and put on a plaque.

[Wiseguy]

I'm not a Mafia member so I'm not necessarily beholden to Cosa Nostra criteria alone. I can judge it from the outside looking in and go with how law enforcement sizes things up.

This should etched in bronze and put on a plaque.

I can recognize and appreciate the internal formalities of Cosa Nostra as much as the next guy. However, that's not necessarily the best criteria to use if one's purpose is to measure the practical, real world state of a mob family.

[OcSleeper]

Detroit and Rochester keep getting brought up about being the same situation and fair enough there are certain similarities. But then you go and say "why would they go make a bunch of new guys after years of not recruiting anyone" and B goes and gives a number of examples where the books were closed and then opened after years. But now those doesn't count, "those were different situations".

I understand you want concrete evidence and that's fine. But you don't have to hijack the thread shutting down every single theory that others are trying to explore especially when valid points are being brought up.

this is going no where. This is like the 20th page on whether a Criminal organization exists or not and then you gut guys going at with insults.

[B.]

I can recognize and appreciate the internal formalities of Cosa Nostra as much as the next guy. However, that's not necessarily the best criteria to use if one's purpose is to measure the practical, real world state of a mob family.

I agree that many factors have to be accounted for if we want to understand (as best we can, as outsiders) the organization and its activities. I don't agree that one criteria is better than another when we're talking about different aspects of the organization, and the protocol and formalities of Cosa Nostra are essential to evaluating the core existence of a Cosa Nostra family regardless of what they do or don't do. Not sure how to get around that basic reality based on my own research and conversations with experts.

If the Morena tapes revealed that Domenico Violi completely disregarded the Buffalo Cosa Nostra family and saw himself as "boss" of his own crew of Calabrian-Canadian drug dealers or 'ndranghetesi, I'd say okay, the Buffalo Cosa Nostra family is truly a nonentity in its historic territory of Hamilton. The tapes didn't reveal that, though. They revealed that Domenico Violi proudly considered himself a high-ranking member of the Buffalo Cosa Nostra family and he happily represented Hamilton on behalf of his boss in Buffalo, attending formal meetings with Bonanno members and being a point of contact for Montreal and NYC members.

It's good in my opinion that we have people on here like you who evaluate information about mafia families critically through a conservative lens. I'm glad you focus more on the outright criminal activities of these groups. There is a need for that. The criteria you use to do that is a necessary part of the discussion, but it's not the only criteria nor is it the best.

The unfortunate part of this ongoing debate (which is mostly fun for me and not a source of anger, only occasional frustration) is that we can use your criteria as well as the criteria of other intelligent researchers to have an open, constructive discussion without trying to control or shut down ideas that don't fit one person's criteria or another. I don't think you and I even have different criteria when it comes to the activity and criminal side of these groups.

Look at this board and who the moderators are. Look at the standards that are used when making charts and what happens when someone makes a chart they pulled out of their ass. It doesn't go over well. Look what's happened to poor Furio over the years, haha. Nobody on here is going to get away with making a Buffalo chart with unconfirmed members, made up names, unnecessarily big hierarchies, or much beyond that. However, we need to be able to openly discuss real events and information that connects to the Buffalo-Ontario mafia -- whatever is left of it.