Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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B.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by B. »

Pogo The Clown wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:05 pm As for member sources we only recently learned that back in the 1960s and early 1970s about half the members in SF and SJ were cooperating, including the former SF Boss. Same for the member informants in all the other families across the country including some pretty surprising names. We only know this stuff now because files from the 1960s were finally made available. We have yet to see a similar document dump for the 1980s-2010s. Though we can safely say that this period too would be riddled with confidential member informants across the country. We recently just learned, by accident, that the recent Chicago Boss John DiFronzo was most likely cooperating.

So we can safely assume that LE's public statments on the Buffalo membership and overall state from the 1980s-present is based on equally credible sources.
Interestingly Buffalo didn't have a single member source cooperating during that period. The best source the FBI had was the Magaddino bug, but aside from identifying the leadership and Magaddino's inner circle, relatively few members were identified in what was then a large, sprawling family. It's true some families were thoroughly compromised, but others like Buffalo had no member CIs.

It would be great news if we eventually find out the FBI's info on Buffalo from recent decades has been reinforced by a longtime member CI. Without knowing that for sure, we can't "safely" assume anything, though.

Right now we have the Buffalo underboss on tape with a Bonanno member implying the family had around 30 people when he was promoted. If more information surfaces later (and I sincerely hope it does) that conflicts or confirms Violi's comment, I will be happy either way because all I'm interested in is the truth of the situation, or as close as we can get to it.
Wiseguy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:02 pm And why haven't we identified anyone else except an extended family in Hamilton where one guy was made and two others were offered their buttons? This is keeping me up at night.
Very little has been made publicly available from the Morena investigation. We've seen only a few snippets of a deep investigation and those few snippets have already turned the entire Buffalo-Ontario discussion upside down and raised interesting questions about the Bonanno family and Montreal. Another snippet about an Ontario guy being "straightened out" by another US family came out and it had similar impact. We don't know who and what else was identified during the investigation.
Wiseguy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:02 pm Or was it a case of the family - for whatever inexplicable, never-before-done reason - deciding to start making new members in large numbers at some point in particular?
Do you mean when NYC didn't make guys for nearly 15 years beginning in 1931 and eventually held mass inductions in the 1950s, resulting in internal controversy for the entire mafia that had to be addressed at a national meeting of all families?
Or when they didn't make guys for 19 years between 1957 and 1976 and held mass inductions throughout the 1970s and 80s?
Or when Valachi said the NYC families closed the books for a substantial period of time before he was made pre-1930?
Or when the Colombo family wasn't allowed to make any members from 1991-2000 and made up for lost time afterward?
Or when Philadelphia members complained that Angelo Bruno barely inducted any members from the mid-1960s until his 1980 death, to be followed by Scarfo holding mass inductions?
Or when Dallas didn't make any members for almost forty years then finally made a new group right when they were on the verge of dying out?
Or when New Orleans didn't induct many members for decades and decided to open their books in 1968 when they were down to 5 members?

"That's ancient history!"

The mafia has a long tradition of closing its books for substantial periods of time and letting its membership thin out only to resume inductions, assuming that's what happened in this case. I'd just as well believe they made a few members here and there all along and inside sources haven't been available to confirm.

I'm comfortable not knowing the exact reason Buffalo might have had 30 members in the mid-2010s and hope someday we find out more that confirms or conflicts with Violi's claim.
Wiseguy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:02 pm To discuss without the bullshit getting too high and deep. If somebody was looking for examples of how quickly things can get carried away with speculation and exaggeration, this thread would be a good start. Just saying.
I don't see you doing much discussion at all aside from trying to shut other people down when they try to discuss publicly available information.

What you're saying, and are constantly saying, is much more like the radical leftists you hate who need to control and demean to get their way. Except in this case you don't get your way. You don't achieve any goal, which is why I asked what yours is.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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You guys know what the definition of insanity is right?
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cavita
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by cavita »

B. wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:19 pm
Pogo The Clown wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:05 pm As for member sources we only recently learned that back in the 1960s and early 1970s about half the members in SF and SJ were cooperating, including the former SF Boss. Same for the member informants in all the other families across the country including some pretty surprising names. We only know this stuff now because files from the 1960s were finally made available. We have yet to see a similar document dump for the 1980s-2010s. Though we can safely say that this period too would be riddled with confidential member informants across the country. We recently just learned, by accident, that the recent Chicago Boss John DiFronzo was most likely cooperating.

So we can safely assume that LE's public statments on the Buffalo membership and overall state from the 1980s-present is based on equally credible sources.
Interestingly Buffalo didn't have a single member source cooperating during that period. The best source the FBI had was the Magaddino bug, but aside from identifying the leadership and Magaddino's inner circle, relatively few members were identified in what was then a large, sprawling family. It's true some families were thoroughly compromised, but others like Buffalo had no member CIs.

It would be great news if we eventually find out the FBI's info on Buffalo from recent decades has been reinforced by a longtime member CI. Without knowing that for sure, we can't "safely" assume anything, though.

Right now we have the Buffalo underboss on tape with a Bonanno member implying the family had around 30 people when he was promoted. If more information surfaces later (and I sincerely hope it does) that conflicts or confirms Violi's comment, I will be happy either way because all I'm interested in is the truth of the situation, or as close as we can get to it.
Wiseguy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:02 pm And why haven't we identified anyone else except an extended family in Hamilton where one guy was made and two others were offered their buttons? This is keeping me up at night.
Very little has been made publicly available from the Morena investigation. We've seen only a few snippets of a deep investigation and those few snippets have already turned the entire Buffalo-Ontario discussion upside down and raised interesting questions about the Bonanno family and Montreal. Another snippet about an Ontario guy being "straightened out" by another US family came out and it had similar impact. We don't know who and what else was identified during the investigation.
Wiseguy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:02 pm Or was it a case of the family - for whatever inexplicable, never-before-done reason - deciding to start making new members in large numbers at some point in particular?
Do you mean when NYC didn't make guys for nearly 15 years beginning in 1931 and eventually held mass inductions in the 1950s, resulting in internal controversy for the entire mafia that had to be addressed at a national meeting of all families?
Or when they didn't make guys for 19 years between 1957 and 1976 and held mass inductions throughout the 1970s and 80s?
Or when Valachi said the NYC families closed the books for a substantial period of time before he was made pre-1930?
Or when the Colombo family wasn't allowed to make any members from 1991-2000 and made up for lost time afterward?
Or when Philadelphia members complained that Angelo Bruno barely inducted any members from the mid-1960s until his 1980 death, to be followed by Scarfo holding mass inductions?
Or when Dallas didn't make any members for almost forty years then finally made a new group right when they were on the verge of dying out?
Or when New Orleans didn't induct many members for decades and decided to open their books in 1968 when they were down to 5 members?

"That's ancient history!"

The mafia has a long tradition of closing its books for substantial periods of time and letting its membership thin out only to resume inductions, assuming that's what happened in this case. I'd just as well believe they made a few members here and there all along and inside sources haven't been available to confirm.

I'm comfortable not knowing the exact reason Buffalo might have had 30 members in the mid-2010s and hope someday we find out more that confirms or conflicts with Violi's claim.
Wiseguy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:02 pm To discuss without the bullshit getting too high and deep. If somebody was looking for examples of how quickly things can get carried away with speculation and exaggeration, this thread would be a good start. Just saying.
I don't see you doing much discussion at all aside from trying to shut other people down when they try to discuss publicly available information.

What you're saying, and are constantly saying, is much more like the radical leftists you hate who need to control and demean to get their way. Except in this case you don't get your way. You don't achieve any goal, which is why I asked what yours is.
Well thought out, concise responses that make sense.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by SantoClaus »

johnny_scootch wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:49 am You guys know what the definition of insanity is right?
Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.
“To know and not to do, is not to know”
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by CabriniGreen »

In a nutshell, Wise n Pogo dont think there enough structure ( made members, recruits...) left to constitute a family. Whatever criminal activity is occurring, they dont believe its substantial enough to constitute a "resurgence".

Maybe it's not enough for a true resurgence of the borgata. I DO believe the Violis significant enough criminals that they have a big role in Hamilton OC, and by extension the Ontario region. I'm just trying to figure HOW big, HOW important they are in the grand scheme of things.

If the Buffalo borgata isnt restructuring, then Sergis description should be ANALYZED FURTHER...not just dismissed outright...
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Angelo Santino »

CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:36 am In a nutshell, Wise n Pogo dont think there enough structure ( made members, recruits...) left to constitute a family. Whatever criminal activity is occurring, they dont believe its substantial enough to constitute a "resurgence".

Maybe it's not enough for a true resurgence of the borgata. I DO believe the Violis significant enough criminals that they have a big role in Hamilton OC, and by extension the Ontario region. I'm just trying to figure HOW big, HOW important they are in the grand scheme of things.

If the Buffalo borgata isnt restructuring, then Sergis description should be ANALYZED FURTHER...not just dismissed outright...
You keep saying she was dismissed outright? How? By who?
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by NickleCity »

More News

Feds raided home of sheriff's deputy who is best friend of indicted DEA agent

https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crim ... ssion=true
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by CabriniGreen »

Chris Christie wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:53 am
CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:36 am In a nutshell, Wise n Pogo dont think there enough structure ( made members, recruits...) left to constitute a family. Whatever criminal activity is occurring, they dont believe its substantial enough to constitute a "resurgence".

Maybe it's not enough for a true resurgence of the borgata. I DO believe the Violis significant enough criminals that they have a big role in Hamilton OC, and by extension the Ontario region. I'm just trying to figure HOW big, HOW important they are in the grand scheme of things.

If the Buffalo borgata isnt restructuring, then Sergis description should be ANALYZED FURTHER...not just dismissed outright...
You keep saying she was dismissed outright? How? By who?
Bro, not you. You tried to talk to her, right? Take it easy.....

My point was if theres no Buffalo, then WHAT, is it? If it's not what Sergi described, then what's the theory? Wiseguy posted her email like it was the dumbest thing someone could say, when I actually think she might have had a somewhat accurate description, I think they agree more than disagree.. I mean they are LCN, but might have gotten caught up in a Ndrangheta conflict....

I dont think its a one off, the Violis have been pretty much running a continuing criminal enterprise. They have significantly more of a criminal pedigree than the examples provided of residual mob activity, by members from a dead borgata. But they DO make a compelling argument, I cant lie.....

I'm trying to come to a consensus, some kinda common ground. Instead of this endless circle. Even all the newspaper articles ASK the QUESTION, IS the mob back. They didnt definitively say Buffalo is a thing again.
But they DO see it as a possibility....



Ima go back to tracing their links to the Commisso, and how they might have gotten involved in a Hamilton centered conflict with Calabrian clans, and what was to be the scope of the operations with the Bonnanos, and how they fit into the Montreal conflict. We might be interested in different aspects of the same thing. Whether there is or isnt a Buffalo borgata has no bearing on my interest in the Violi- Luppino organization.

Lol, is it the Buffalo borgata, OR, the Violi- Luppino organization?
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by CabriniGreen »

CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:20 am
Chris Christie wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:53 am
CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:36 am In a nutshell, Wise n Pogo dont think there enough structure ( made members, recruits...) left to constitute a family. Whatever criminal activity is occurring, they dont believe its substantial enough to constitute a "resurgence".

Maybe it's not enough for a true resurgence of the borgata. I DO believe the Violis significant enough criminals that they have a big role in Hamilton OC, and by extension the Ontario region. I'm just trying to figure HOW big, HOW important they are in the grand scheme of things.

If the Buffalo borgata isnt restructuring, then Sergis description should be ANALYZED FURTHER...not just dismissed outright...
You keep saying she was dismissed outright? How? By who?
Bro, not you. You tried to talk to her, right? Take it easy.....

My point was if theres no Buffalo, then WHAT, is it? If it's not what Sergi described, then what's the theory? Wiseguy posted her email like it was the dumbest thing someone could say, when I actually think she might have had a somewhat accurate description, I think they agree more than disagree.. I mean they are LCN, but might have gotten caught up in a Ndrangheta conflict....

I dont think its a one off, the Violis have been pretty much running a continuing criminal enterprise. They have significantly more of a criminal pedigree than the examples provided of residual mob activity, by members from a dead borgata. But they DO make a compelling argument, I cant lie.....

I'm trying to come to a consensus, some kinda common ground. Instead of this endless circle. Even all the newspaper articles ASK the QUESTION, IS the mob back. They didnt definitively say Buffalo is a thing again.
But they DO see it as a possibility....



Ima go back to tracing their links to the Commisso, and how they might have gotten involved in a Hamilton centered conflict with Calabrian clans, and what was to be the scope of the operations with the Bonnanos, and how they fit into the Montreal conflict. We might be interested in different aspects of the same thing. Whether there is or isnt a Buffalo borgata has no bearing on my interest in the Violi- Luppino organization.

Lol, is it the Buffalo borgata, OR, the Violi- Luppino organization?
Also, if there IS a Buffalo, then WHY is it being resuscitated, NOW? Not after Papalia and his muscle, they didnt make the Musitanos when they got out.... the timing I dont understand really...
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Angelo Santino »

I'm calm... but I have to defend Wiseguy here, all he said was "I'm not sure I agree" which speaks to his dedication to the truth because he could have just not posted it at all if he didn't agree with it. And I- as a mod- went back and edited the message once I learned she didn't want her emails posted. He didn't dismiss her outright.

Regarding the Todaro's affiliation it's very simple to me- Violi was made Underboss (this is a Mafia rank, not a Ndrangheta one), the connections were within the Mafia network- NY and Montreal. The protocol for entering the organization- ceremony or not- was a Mafia one.

Had this been reversed and Violi said that Todaro made him Crimine (equiv to Mafia Underboss) and they had meetings with the GTA Ndrangheta that would have been a headfuck and it would have collaborated the Todaros being something other than LCN. But it's not. Violi is Calabrian but he joined the Mafia, we'd have to ask him why. But his family had a history of Mafia affiliation so it's not like it's a big question mark or something extraordinary.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Angelo Santino »

For all we know they were never officially defunct and just continued on from 2006 (last known chart) until 2014. If a tree falls in the woods type of thing. It's not like Todaro is going to argue with the FBI and call a news conference to argue that they are still a group, he probably wishes everyone still thought Buffalo was dead.

We got over the administration hump, once we get over the 30-number membership hump, this'll be the next hump- whether they were always around or reconstituted, likely around page 350 on this thread.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by johnny_scootch »

CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:20 am Lol, is it the Buffalo borgata, OR, the Violi- Luppino organization?
I think it's pretty clear the Luppino's have always been a part of the Buffalo family going all the way back to Giacomo.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Angelo Santino »

johnny_scootch wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:43 am
CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:20 am Lol, is it the Buffalo borgata, OR, the Violi- Luppino organization?
I think it's pretty clear the Luppino's have always been a part of the Buffalo family going all the way back to Giacomo.
Clear as day.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by NickleCity »

NickleCity wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:11 am More News

Feds raided home of sheriff's deputy who is best friend of indicted DEA agent

https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crim ... ssion=true
^^^
"The Selva raid happened on the same day that agents raided the Williamsville home of Michael Masecchia, a Buffalo high school teacher who has since pleaded guilty to felony drug charges and admitted getting law enforcement sensitive information from Bongiovanni."
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by SantoClaus »

CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:22 am
CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:20 am
Chris Christie wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:53 am
CabriniGreen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:36 am In a nutshell, Wise n Pogo dont think there enough structure ( made members, recruits...) left to constitute a family. Whatever criminal activity is occurring, they dont believe its substantial enough to constitute a "resurgence".

Maybe it's not enough for a true resurgence of the borgata. I DO believe the Violis significant enough criminals that they have a big role in Hamilton OC, and by extension the Ontario region. I'm just trying to figure HOW big, HOW important they are in the grand scheme of things.

If the Buffalo borgata isnt restructuring, then Sergis description should be ANALYZED FURTHER...not just dismissed outright...
You keep saying she was dismissed outright? How? By who?
Bro, not you. You tried to talk to her, right? Take it easy.....

My point was if theres no Buffalo, then WHAT, is it? If it's not what Sergi described, then what's the theory? Wiseguy posted her email like it was the dumbest thing someone could say, when I actually think she might have had a somewhat accurate description, I think they agree more than disagree.. I mean they are LCN, but might have gotten caught up in a Ndrangheta conflict....

I dont think its a one off, the Violis have been pretty much running a continuing criminal enterprise. They have significantly more of a criminal pedigree than the examples provided of residual mob activity, by members from a dead borgata. But they DO make a compelling argument, I cant lie.....

I'm trying to come to a consensus, some kinda common ground. Instead of this endless circle. Even all the newspaper articles ASK the QUESTION, IS the mob back. They didnt definitively say Buffalo is a thing again.
But they DO see it as a possibility....



Ima go back to tracing their links to the Commisso, and how they might have gotten involved in a Hamilton centered conflict with Calabrian clans, and what was to be the scope of the operations with the Bonnanos, and how they fit into the Montreal conflict. We might be interested in different aspects of the same thing. Whether there is or isnt a Buffalo borgata has no bearing on my interest in the Violi- Luppino organization.

Lol, is it the Buffalo borgata, OR, the Violi- Luppino organization?
Also, if there IS a Buffalo, then WHY is it being resuscitated, NOW? Not after Papalia and his muscle, they didnt make the Musitanos when they got out.... the timing I dont understand really...
Prior to the murder of both Papalia and Barillaro, from what I was told Papalia was looking to solely focus on gambling/sports book and was given the majority of narcotics responsibilities to the Musitanos, with everyone profiting.

Thus, still being OC, that was seen as a sign of weakness in a 70 plus year old gangster, that has been around since basically the beginning. Considering, that John Papalia more than likely got a taste of everything and shared with the minimal amount of people necessary, eventually removing Papalia would equal more money for those he did share with (NYC?, Ndrangheta?, Montreal?).

Convincing a 31 yr old Pat Musitano, whose father just died two years earlier to make a move was maybe easier than most consider, at the same time, only those who knew what John Papalia was making aka sharing, would know after he was dead. Allowing, them to pocket more themselves, as well as set new terms with a young, hunger upstart, like Pat Musitano.

Even after the murder of Barillaro, things were working as far as business goes minus Papalia and Barillaro. It was the ratting of the Musitanos by their hitman Ken Murdock that derailed them, I’ll assume whoever was involved in giving the ‘green light’ on the hits, were making more via Musitanos opposed to the dinosaur, being Papalia.
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