Biggest shocks/surprises since you've been following the mob

[B.]

What are the biggest shocks or surprises you've had since you've been following the mob?

This could be something in contemporary times that broke in the news, like an indictment or killing, or it could be some new info that changes mob history. Maybe it's even something you found out through your own research... or for a couple of you maybe you heard it in person.

I think many will say that the Montreal events (if anyone can even pick one) are some of the most shocking in recent times. Also Massino flipping for sure, and maybe a number of the big rats from NY and Philly depending on when you started following this subject. It will probably vary depending on age and how you got introduced to this stuff.

Gotti dying was pretty big to me at the time. I didn't know as much as I do now and it was hard to imagine a guy like that dying, if that makes sense.

For me today, the Sal Montagna killing was the most shocking news I've ever woken up to. I wasn't old enough for any of the big hits of the 1980s or earlier to mean anything. The storyline was just so intense it was hard not to take a step back and ask "how is this real?"

As far as the history goes, it was reading things like DaveC's book, the First Family book, Rick/Angelo/Lennert's article, Bonanno's book, and Gentile's writing and seeing just how tight the network was even in the earliest days of the 20th century and probably before. It wasn't surprising when I started figuring out that the Luciano stories were all BS and that the families were older than 1930, but reading those sources I mentioned blew me away with how much was going on with the Sicilians. And we still don't know the half of it.

Another big one is just how many informants there were in the "golden years". We don't know how many guys are secretly informing today, but based on those that come out it doesn't seem that much worse than what was going on in the middle of last century. The different in modern times has been all of the guys testifying and going into the program. Also blown away by some of the guys who have turned out to be likely informants like Riccobene and Bill Bonanno.

I guess another question is... what could happen or what could you learn in the future that would shock you almost as much as any of the above?

[Ivan]

For me today, the Sal Montagna killing was the most shocking news I've ever woken up to. I wasn't old enough for any of the big hits of the 1980s or earlier to mean anything. The storyline was just so intense it was hard not to take a step back and ask "how is this real?"

This is pretty much word for word what I was going to post when I read the subject line. Ex-Bonanno boss comes flying out of a house fatally wounded and dies trying to swim a cross a river. Neat.

As far as history goes, when I read about how wacky things used to be in Youngstown, I was pretty blown away (no bombing pun intended).

And for the future... hmm... I would be shocked if a big war broke out in New York, like the Colombo war or what happened in Montreal recently. I don't really see that ever happening in the USA again. Now Canada is another story. However, I would not be surprised if the remnants of the Philly family started blasting away again.

[brianwellbrock]

Most shocking to happen since I followed is the Montaga shooting too.

As far as new discovery, on my own resesrch which is very little would be discovering Scarfo wasnt "banished" to AC by Bruno.

All the info done by you guys that has smashed all the contemporary "Luciano created the 5 families" is pretty cool since that is pretty much what all of us thought at one point or another. And would shock anybody since any avid mob watcher would call b.s. the minute this stuff is brought to discussion.

I, for one hate the George Anastasia "make money not headlines" crap where people are characterized in one sentence. The biggest thing that I have learned from these sites is that the mob isnt black and white but gray. I.E. Gotti didnt have everyone come to the Ravenite soely to stroke his ego but because he wanted to keep everyone around him so they couldnt plot on him as well as other things. Things like "Gotti loved the limelight" type things really simplify a more complex phenomenon we all are interested in.

[Angelo Santino]

I'm having the same problem myself with what I'm working on. Things aren't black and white like Brian said. And when I find myself trying to formulate how to explain the facts I fall into a rabbit hole because things are gray and how to explain also in a way most reflective of the facts. There's always an exception to everything. A basic example would be saying "Captains control a crew of soldiers." That's the norm, but one can't say "Every soldier reports to a captain." Even though that's the exception.

[johnny_scootch]

For me it was when the bull flipped. Bosses captains soldiers associates everyone shit their pants.

[Pogo The Clown]

When Joe Massino was first indicted. I wouldnt say I was shocked or surprised sinc I knew the feds were closing in on him but was a big moment for me when it happened especially coming off of Frank Coppa and the Cantarella's flipping which seemd to come out of no where. I was pretty shocked when Mssino flipped since I never thought we would ever see a sitting NY Boss flip, especially not him considering how he had been built up. Sal Vitale was a bit of a shock at the time as well since it also seemed to come out of nowhere and was thought at the time, incorrectly as it turned out, that he and Massino were so close. They of course had been built up as this close old school team that he rebuilt the Banannos.


While not really surprising considering it was Philly, the hits on Long John Martorano and Johnny Gongs did come as a bit of a shock just because I knew who they were. These were the first times where mobsters I had read about where killed.


Pogo

[moneyman]

I have been following organized crime for a couple of years, the Nicademo hit and how it was carried out is baffling to say the least. Nothing about it makes sense.

[Lupara]

For me it's probably the hit on Nick Rizzuto, which happened only a few weeks after I had joined the RD forum. A week before I'd speculated on GangsterBB that perhaps Nick could be next, and then he was killed. I was flabbergasted. That was also when I really started digging into the Montreal stuff, reading every news article on the hit I could find and checking out news videos, most of which were in French but I viewed it anyway. They showed the spot behind the house were the assassin had allegedly been waiting for Nick to show up and also the bullet hole in the window. It looked like such a peaceful neighborhood. It was unreal. At the time it was naturally assumed that the hit had come from Hamilton and that it was a revenge killing for the murder of Paolo Violi. It turned out to be slightly different.

As for Montagna, at the time he was killed I didn't know a great deal about him plus everybody had joined the bandwagon to mock JoeyCigars and Montagna's status. I was particulary shocked about the circumstances of the hit. The next shock came when Desjardins was arrested for the murder.

Joe Di Maulo was shocking as well, especially because everybody believed Rizzuto was going to be killed within a month, but it was Di Maulo instead. After Di Maulo's murder, there was little that could shock anymore. We'd seen it all and it became business as usual.

What could now only shock me is if there will be another attempt by outside forces to take over Montreal and a guy such as Rocco Sollecito gets killed. Infighting however is still very much a possibility and I won't be shocked if Arcadi gets killed once he's back out on the streets. However, Montreal is always up for suprises.

[B.]

As far as new discovery, on my own resesrch which is very little would be discovering Scarfo wasnt "banished" to AC by Bruno.

Yeah, it is interesting how the more something gets repeated, the more it becomes fact. Scarfo went to AC because his parents owned property there and he was a member of DiTullio's crew which controlled AC. Yet even Anastasia believed in the banishment story.

Agreed with both of you about the black and white vs. grey aspect. For every rule, there are multiple interpretations. Look at the "drug" rule... there have absolutely been rules against dealing drugs, but it seems to mean different things. In some cases (i.e. Gambino family), this seems to mean that there are certain crews who were allowed to traffick heroin because they had the trust of the bosses (Conte crew), whereas other crews were not given that freedom because they didn't have the same trust (Bergin crew). Then in Philly you have Scarfo letting guys fund drug deals and back drug dealers up, but not handle the goods themselves.

[mike68]

Yes, the whole brazeness of the Montreal mob war in this day and age was the most shocking to me. To have the 'Wild West' type of environment still exist is incredible. Obviously the lack of RICO statutes goes a long way in this.

[Pogo The Clown]

Yeah, it is interesting how the more something gets repeated, the more it becomes fact. Scarfo went to AC because his parents owned property there and he was a member of DiTullio's crew which controlled AC. Yet even Anastasia believed in the banishment story.

Scarfo was the caretaker of AC where there was nothing to take care of.


Pogo

[Chucky]

I didn't find the boards till 2008, so everything that shocked me prior to that was exclusively Philly.

It happened when I was 16, but when Nicky Scarfo Jr got shot up at D&L that honestly shocked me, what happened in the early 80s didn't mean much to me cause I was really young, but by that age I was more aware and Nicky Jr was a known guy who represented his father. The attempted hit on the freeway in '93 was pretty stunning shit too, a lot of innocent people could have been killed, 76 heading through Philly is bumper to bumper, the fact that even attempted that is fucking wild.

Turchi getting done the way he did is another one, I use to see him around the neighborhood time to time at Joe Crutch's spot shooting the shit with some of the older guys on the block. He always seemed like a nice guy, not a serious guy like guys in Joey's crew, so when I heard how they killed him...I remember feeling bad for him, he didn't deserve that even with Natale rolling like a dog. Gongs & Martorano were born troublemakers so them getting clipped wasn't all that surprising to me, only surprising in the sense that there was a lot on these guys at that time, 2002/2003, and they did it anyway...and it was real cowboy shit with Martorano.

As far as since I started reading the boards...gotta be Montagna. I remember I was watching football on Thanksgiving and I was goofing around on my phone at halftime and saw the thread and I was checking it every half hour afterwards, that was some wild shit.

[FriendofHenry]

As far as history goes, when I read about how wacky things used to be in Youngstown, I was pretty blown away (no bombing pun intended).

Imagine living thru those days like I did. Then going thru the aftermath that followed.
Finally ending with the then Boss ratting out his lifelong friend that he hired to kill one of his own ;-(

[Dwalin2014]

I was very surprised when Nick Rizzuto got killed. I didn't expect him to die a violent death at his age, I thought he was almost done by natural age.

[Giacomo_Vacari]

Gravano flipping, the shooting on the freeway in broad daylight in Philly. The Herbert Blitzstein hit in Las Vegas, Joe Massino flipping, Nick Rizzuto hit in Montreal. There are more, but the two shocking moments for me were Herbert Blitzstein hit and Carman Milano flipping then changing his mind.