Montreal war biggest example of how the lcn has fallen?

[Ivan]

It's like someone made it all up.

That's how I felt about the Montreal war in general and Montagna's spectacular death in particular. Better than fiction, you can't make that shit up.

[Pogo The Clown]

you can't make that shit up.

The fuck are you talkin' about? I just did.


Pogo

[Giacomo_Vacari]

Montagna is really a mystery. We can only piece together some of his life that is known to us. FBI had him made by 2000, but it seems he was made before that, especially before the Sciascia hit. That meeting may have been Georges way of trying to transfer Salvatore into Canada, as Sciascia didn't trust Massino judgment in the crowd he kept. This meeting was in 96 or 97. You can't just walk into Montreal and say your in charge, not without support and contacts being there already. Montagna was a sicilian, but it seems he had contacts with calabrians in Montreal.

[AustraliaSteve]

you can't make that shit up.

The fuck are you talkin' about? I just did.


Pogo

Seriously though, the $0.02 from the Australian (nobody EVER wants to hear from the Australian)....
I don't think it's really a fair example to compare Montreal to NY. The question is based on a faulty premise. The recruitment pool and culture is far removed from "The Volcano".

I'm of the school of thought that endorses the "6th Family" theory, that old Nick and Vito had, during their tenures, managed to build up a syndicate that was, for all intents and purposes, independent of New York (I point Sal Vitale's statements,where Vito refused to accept an official promotion, etc). The Carauna/Cunterea clan aside, their drug network went far beyond just wholesaling to Bonanno and Gambino guys, and the family made a fucton of $ with drugs over the years. And as far as I know, it wasn't like Montagna was sent up to there as an envoy or anything; he was sent to Montreal by the US Government. Even if it turned out that he had become a player in the scene, I kinda feel like he was making a go of what he had to work with, and haven't seen much to disprove mine opine. I've read Mafia Inc. and The Sixth Family, but understand there are more books to be published on what the fuck was going on up in Montreal during those last few years up to Vito's death. If anyone's willing to share some insight on the "war", I'd be glad to read it.

As someone pointed out earlier the the thread, a guy like Reynald Desjardins was able to make a go of it. But one minute we hear Fernandez claiming he's made, the next he's dead. Has LCN (in CANADA) really falling that far. The guy was a fucking Spaniard, FFS.

[AustraliaSteve]

Montagna is really a mystery. We can only piece together some of his life that is known to us. FBI had him made by 2000, but it seems he was made before that, especially before the Sciascia hit. That meeting may have been Georges way of trying to transfer Salvatore into Canada, as Sciascia didn't trust Massino judgment in the crowd he kept. This meeting was in 96 or 97. You can't just walk into Montreal and say your in charge, not without support and contacts being there already. Montagna was a sicilian, but it seems he had contacts with calabrians in Montreal.

That feeds into was I was saying though. Montagna was deported by the USCIS, he didn't go there by his own accord. I seem to recall Capeci himself stating the the "Bambino Boss" would be going there without "official" support. Regardless of his Calabrian,let alone Siggie contacts, it comes across as a blind man bluff on the Iron Workers part. And he ended up sleepin' down by the river, without a fucking van even.

[scagghiuni]

i think the wrost mistake was to kill agostino cuntrera probably the caruana-cuntrera's are behind several murders (moreno gallo, carmine verduci, salvatore calautti)

[B.]

Seriously though, the $0.02 from the Australian (nobody EVER wants to hear from the Australian)....
I don't think it's really a fair example to compare Montreal to NY. The question is based on a faulty premise. The recruitment pool and culture is far removed from "The Volcano".

I'm of the school of thought that endorses the "6th Family" theory, that old Nick and Vito had, during their tenures, managed to build up a syndicate that was, for all intents and purposes, independent of New York (I point Sal Vitale's statements,where Vito refused to accept an official promotion, etc). The Carauna/Cunterea clan aside, their drug network went far beyond just wholesaling to Bonanno and Gambino guys, and the family made a fucton of $ with drugs over the years. And as far as I know, it wasn't like Montagna was sent up to there as an envoy or anything; he was sent to Montreal by the US Government. Even if it turned out that he had become a player in the scene, I kinda feel like he was making a go of what he had to work with, and haven't seen much to disprove mine opine. I've read Mafia Inc. and The Sixth Family, but understand there are more books to be published on what the fuck was going on up in Montreal during those last few years up to Vito's death. If anyone's willing to share some insight on the "war", I'd be glad to read it.

As someone pointed out earlier the the thread, a guy like Reynald Desjardins was able to make a go of it. But one minute we hear Fernandez claiming he's made, the next he's dead. Has LCN (in CANADA) really falling that far. The guy was a fucking Spaniard, FFS.

What bugs me about the "Sixth Family" hype is that the Montreal crew was always a huge independent powerhouse in its own right. The Cotroni organization had significant international influence on top of what they controlled in Montreal and had a great deal of autonomy. They were among the biggest heroin traffickers in the world as well. I have never seen anything except flowery language to indicate that the Rizzutos were different from that, and even after the Sciascia hit they showed respect to the New York visitors and introduced them to each other as members, so it's not as if they openly abandoned their affiliation. Sure the Rizzutos had their own relationships they built, but it still follows what had already existed there for many decades under the Cotronis.

Some people assume that the Rizzutos had already more or less split off before Sciascia's death, but I've never seen evidence to back that up. What we do know though is that a Bonanno capo was responsible for them and maintained close ties to them, and that was Sciascia. So that arrangement is no different from Galante, Vito DeFilippo, LaBruzzo and whoever else represented the Montreal crew in NYC in the 1950s and 60s, it's just in this case their representative was way closer to them and probably gave them an even longer leash. When he died is when the debate opens up.

You can't just walk into Montreal and say your in charge, not without support and contacts being there already. Montagna was a sicilian, but it seems he had contacts with calabrians in Montreal.

Exactly. While it might have been fate that led to Montagna being deported, he did not randomly choose Montreal and at the end of the day he was made into the same Cosa Nostra family that all of the Montreal members belonged to.

I will be very interested to learn more about how things are set up now, as it seems the arrangement is very different.

[Lupara]

Montagna met Sciascia and through him he was introduced to Dominic and Gallo both top guys in Montreal at the time, this was in the 90s. This meeting supposedly took place somewhere in upstate New York.

Dominic who?

[Lupara]

i think the wrost mistake was to kill agostino cuntrera probably the caruana-cuntrera's are behind several murders (moreno gallo, carmine verduci, salvatore calautti)

Seems unlikely as both Calautti and Verduci were close to the Cuntreras in Toronto. In Business or Blood it is described how Calautti attended a 50th wedding anniversary of a Cuntrera member in early 2011, many months after the hit on Agostino. Surely the Cuntreras, who were in business with the Calabrians, were informed on the killings.

[B.]

Montagna met Sciascia and through him he was introduced to Dominic and Gallo both top guys in Montreal at the time, this was in the 90s. This meeting supposedly took place somewhere in upstate New York.

Dominic who?

He was referring to Domenico Manno.

[AustraliaSteve]

What bugs me about the "Sixth Family" hype is that the Montreal crew was always a huge independent powerhouse in its own right. The Cotroni organization had significant international influence on top of what they controlled in Montreal and had a great deal of autonomy. They were among the biggest heroin traffickers in the world as well. I have never seen anything except flowery language to indicate that the Rizzutos were different from that, and even after the Sciascia hit they showed respect to the New York visitors and introduced them to each other as members, so it's not as if they openly abandoned their affiliation. Sure the Rizzutos had their own relationships they built, but it still follows what had already existed there for many decades under the Cotronis.

Some people assume that the Rizzutos had already more or less split off before Sciascia's death, but I've never seen evidence to back that up. What we do know though is that a Bonanno capo was responsible for them and maintained close ties to them, and that was Sciascia. So that arrangement is no different from Galante, Vito DeFilippo, LaBruzzo and whoever else represented the Montreal crew in NYC in the 1950s and 60s, it's just in this case their representative was way closer to them and probably gave them an even longer leash. When he died is when the debate opens up.

Great post, and excellent point regarding the Cotroni's. I worded my post in a manner that indicated I was referring to the family (sanguinary) pre-Sciascia's death. Following it, yes, the debate opens up.

You can't just walk into Montreal and say your in charge, not without support and contacts being there already. Montagna was a sicilian, but it seems he had contacts with calabrians in Montreal.

Exactly. While it might have been fate that led to Montagna being deported, he did not randomly choose Montreal and at the end of the day he was made into the same Cosa Nostra family that all of the Montreal members belonged to.

I will be very interested to learn more about how things are set up now, as it seems the arrangement is very different.

Not at random, he was born there and held dual citizenship IIRC. He was deported to his place of birth. I'll admit I was way off in my thoughts at the time, that Montagna was peripheral to the mayhem, when it has since come to light that he was directly involved. He did have his connections to Montreal, but he was forced to to go there, and so was he not taking simply taking advantage of the situation? It ended badly for him (although it's fair to say it ended badly for many people involved, worse for Nick Rizzuto and Vito's sons).

Off-topic, but I appreciate the knowledge shared amongst the posters in this thread. It will be fascinating to discover the machine currently in place in Montreal.

[B.]

I didn't mean for my post to come across as argumentative with you, I just use these sorts of discussions for jumping off points that I can rant and rave about. It just spirals out from there haha.

I think you're right too that Montagna was just taking advantage of the situation. He had gotten a taste for the top spot in the Bonannos and he ended up in a city that was Bonanno territory. He was an acting boss in NY, so the protocol says he should be shown a certain amount of deference... especially if he had never been formally removed from the acting boss spot. Add the fact that apparently Montreal didn't have an official capo, and the defacto capo Vito Rizzuto was in prison along with some of his top men, and you have an interesting situation. And it's even more interesting now that we know what happened, but not why.

Montagna had been acting boss of the Bonannos longer than anyone else since Massino was busted, but we haven't heard much about what was going on at the top of the family in those years. What did Montagna do as acting boss? This would have been a rebuilding period for the family so maybe he helped with that. We now know that he was more than willing to engage in flashy violence, so I'd bet he was involved in the Seccafico murder. Seems that the Bonanno guys in the Bronx all had it out for Seccafico, but as the acting boss with no official boss above him and also an affiliate of the Bronx crew, we can theorize that Montagna approved the hit.

There was misinformation about Montagna early on that said he was just a Basciano crony whose promotion was symbolic of how far down the Bonannos had gone. People on the Real Deal jumped on this bandwagon and it was in other places too. Now it's clear that Montagna was an aggressive and resourceful leader in his own right. We have seen what he was capable of in Montreal where his mob ties were loose at best, so I hope we learn more about what he was like in NYC where he had more resources and support. The book isn't closed on him.

[AustraliaSteve]

I didn't mean for my post to come across as argumentative with you, I just use these sorts of discussions for jumping off points that I can rant and rave about. It just spirals out from there haha.

Not at all. It's a fascinating subject, and I'll readily admit that there are numerous others much more well versed in the cluster-fuck that is Montreal in recent years.

There was misinformation about Montagna early on that said he was just a Basciano crony whose promotion was symbolic of how far down the Bonannos had gone. People on the Real Deal jumped on this bandwagon and it was in other places too. Now it's clear that Montagna was an aggressive and resourceful leader in his own right. We have seen what he was capable of in Montreal where his mob ties were loose at best, so I hope we learn more about what he was like in NYC where he had more resources and support. The book isn't closed on him.

I can understand this, being on RD when things were heating up and the bodies were dropping. I seem to recall a 20+ page thread of conjecture and supposition. You raise an interesting point though, considering that my own (admittedly out-dated) charts indicate that both Settafico and Montagna were part of the Bronx crew formerly headed by Patty DeFilippo, son of Vito, both with links, as you know, to Montreal. I recall some reports stating that Settafico and Montagna were (relatively) close, and also that the Settafico hit happened after The Ironworker was deported. But by all accounts, Settafico had pissed off a lot of guys. And fuck, that opens up another can of worms. As well as conniving and scheming in Montreal, Montagna was still calling shots in NY? I cant remember whether or not Badalamenti had begun his tenure by that time, but the Montagna approval is not a stretch.

[Rocco]

Refresh my memory of the time frame here. After Sal was deported Mancuso grabbed hold of the top spot correct? It was in this time frame that Settafico was hit correct? Also I thought Settafico was hit for putting his hands on Johhny Joes kid and not giving the proper $ to his family which led to Johnny Joes kid confronting Settafico and then Settafico smacking the kid around? Am I wrong here? Also another gray area is why and if Basciano actually put a contract on Mancuso? Wasnt it because Mancuso just grabbed the family from from Vinny/Sal? Vinny was on tape complaining to Massino about this and Massino reminded Vinny that he did the same thing to Massino.

[Chucky]

There was misinformation about Montagna early on that said he was just a Basciano crony whose promotion was symbolic of how far down the Bonannos had gone. People on the Real Deal jumped on this bandwagon and it was in other places too. Now it's clear that Montagna was an aggressive and resourceful leader in his own right. We have seen what he was capable of in Montreal where his mob ties were loose at best, so I hope we learn more about what he was like in NYC where he had more resources and support. The book isn't closed on him.

I don't know too much about NY other than what I read here, but I remember this theory out there that Montagna was just some flunky and would be a non-factor once he was deported. I think the only guy on RD attempting to get behind a Montagna takeover theory was JoeyCigars and everybody laughed at him saying he was an asshole and that no one in Canada gave a fuck about Montagna, not saying he had any inside knowledge though. I remember thinking at the time that this Montagna couldn't have become a major player at such a young age if he wasn't a serious guy himself, but I think a lot of people really bought into the "Sixth Family" shit and looked at Montagna, or any other Bonannos guy, as a doofus in comparison to the all-powerful & all-knowing Montreal guys.