Cleveland John Scalish Deathbed wishes

[Angelo Santino]

Regarding the theoretical Rockman vs Licavoli and the whole "controlling" story. It's possible. But as for looking to put the pin on who was "most powerful" is a matter of perspective. Organization vs Operational.

Let's do Fantasy Family and imagine where an arrangement was made that Jack White would be Family Boss while Rockman's end was 95% of Family Profits. Outsiders look at the money and conclude its Rockman and there's a strong argument to suggest that anyone who has a 95 to 5 deal with the mob is pretty powerful. But organizationally, a Cleveland LCN Family meeting gets called, Rockman inst allowed in and Jack White is the top officer. To outsiders, Rockman is very much part of the Cleveland LCN, its history cannot be told without him. His, formally, not being a member factors into the organizational perspective but not the operational one which, without him, Cleveland's history wouldn't be the same.

Org vs Op. One doesn't transcend the other and together function as a pivot.

[Angelo Santino]

Lastly, I didn't speak to him directly, but according to Paul Weisenbach (sp?) he's heard from credible sources that Russel Pappalardo is boss and has "an administration." I'm not advocating that to be a fact but I'm not discounting it either. I know this may annoy but just to be clear- there's not going to be any secret functioning family to be discovered. These guys, if true, are position holders that connects them to the national structure. And let's make sure we're very clear here for both sides: this does not imply any Cleveland resurgence. It may not even be true but I heard it, so there it is.

[Villain]

Regarding the theoretical Rockman vs Licavoli and the whole "controlling" story. It's possible. But as for looking to put the pin on who was "most powerful" is a matter of perspective. Organization vs Operational.

Let's do Fantasy Family and imagine where an arrangement was made that Jack White would be Family Boss while Rockman's end was 95% of Family Profits. Outsiders look at the money and conclude its Rockman and there's a strong argument to suggest that anyone who has a 95 to 5 deal with the mob is pretty powerful. But organizationally, a Cleveland LCN Family meeting gets called, Rockman inst allowed in and Jack White is the top officer. To outsiders, Rockman is very much part of the Cleveland LCN, its history cannot be told without him. His, formally, not being a member factors into the organizational perspective but not the operational one which, without him, Cleveland's history wouldn't be the same.

Org vs Op. One doesn't transcend the other and together function as a pivot.

Nicely explained and thanks, although i have the same question but in hypothetical or fantasy version regarding the same matter....lets say a guy like Rockman was operational for at least 30 or 40 years, and held a high position next to the Italian bosses who in turn were replaced, lets say every 5 or 10 years for example....so my question is, did the guy like Rockman hold more seniority and influence than some of the recently placed bosses within the organization, by bringing loads of cash for the organization for quite a long time? We all know that money was/is the blood of the US CN....i know we are also talking about American CN here and according to all protocols, no matter how younger or recent was the boss than Rockman, still the boss is the boss...but besides the cash and protocol, wasnt there some type of senior advisory influence from the guy like Rockman over the high level Italian membership that was needed and very rarely rejected?

Im asking this because i can see Chicagos Alex having a similar role...not the operational one though but instead official hierarchial spot...same as Lansky and the Commission

[Angelo Santino]

Well, "high ranking position" is subjective. He was bro-in-law with Scalish. Let's say Lonardo became boss who (in this scenario) hated Rockman, then the alignments would change and Rockman would be on the outs. He has no membership, nothing besides his familial connection to the former boss who died. In every mafia family, formal membership matters. Those on the outside, Italian and non, are linked to who they are connected to. Rockman dealt with Scalish, Licavoli and others of that level directly, it'd be foolish and misleading to create a chart and place him below the soldiers at the bottom. It's misleading if we're looking at operandi of the org as a whole. "Cleveland" was mafia membership but it had a nucleus of what made up "Cleveland" which, in the 1980's had less than 8-10 active members but 200+ associates that made the rackets running around the formal org run. Org and Op are two different things, theoretically two charts for each era could be made for each family: the black and white membership from boss, under, consig, capo, soldier to the operational: high level associates, crew boss, personal underboss etc. Organizational, Rockman was a nonfactor. Operationally, he was at the top level.

[Villain]

Well, "high ranking position" is subjective. He was bro-in-law with Scalish. Let's say Lonardo became boss who (in this scenario) hated Rockman, then the alignments would change and Rockman would be on the outs. He has no membership, nothing besides his familial connection to the former boss who died. In every mafia family, formal membership matters. Those on the outside, Italian and non, are linked to who they are connected to. Rockman dealt with Scalish, Licavoli and others of that level directly, it'd be foolish and misleading to create a chart and place him below the soldiers at the bottom. It's misleading if we're looking at operandi of the org as a whole. "Cleveland" was mafia membership but it had a nucleus of what made up "Cleveland" which, in the 1980's had less than 8-10 active members but 200+ associates that made the rackets running around the formal org run. Org and Op are two different things, theoretically two charts for each era could be made for each family: the black and white membership from boss, under, consig, capo, soldier to the operational: high level associates, crew boss, personal underboss etc. Organizational, Rockman was a nonfactor. Operationally, he was at the top level.

Thanks again

[Stroccos]

Regarding the theoretical Rockman vs Licavoli and the whole "controlling" story. It's possible. But as for looking to put the pin on who was "most powerful" is a matter of perspective. Organization vs Operational.

Let's do Fantasy Family and imagine where an arrangement was made that Jack White would be Family Boss while Rockman's end was 95% of Family Profits. Outsiders look at the money and conclude its Rockman and there's a strong argument to suggest that anyone who has a 95 to 5 deal with the mob is pretty powerful. But organizationally, a Cleveland LCN Family meeting gets called, Rockman inst allowed in and Jack White is the top officer. To outsiders, Rockman is very much part of the Cleveland LCN, its history cannot be told without him. His, formally, not being a member factors into the organizational perspective but not the operational one which, without him, Cleveland's history wouldn't be the same.

Org vs Op. One doesn't transcend the other and together function as a pivot.

Nicely explained and thanks, although i have the same question but in hypothetical or fantasy version regarding the same matter....lets say a guy like Rockman was operational for at least 30 or 40 years, and held a high position next to the Italian bosses who in turn were replaced, lets say every 5 or 10 years for example....so my question is, did the guy like Rockman hold more seniority and influence than some of the recently placed bosses within the organization, by bringing loads of cash for the organization for quite a long time? We all know that money was/is the blood of the US CN....i know we are also talking about American CN here and according to all protocols, no matter how younger or recent was the boss than Rockman, still the boss is the boss...but besides the cash and protocol, wasnt there some type of senior advisory influence from the guy like Rockman over the high level Italian membership that was needed and very rarely rejected?

Im asking this because i can see Chicagos Alex having a similar role...not the operational one though but instead official hierarchial spot...same as Lansky and the Commission

no I don't think he gave jack white much money at all , according to lonardos testifmony he said he didn't get any money from the teamsters ,

according to lonardo once in Chicago rockman was asked to leave a meeting because rockman wasn't made and the meeting was about the vegas skim which rockman was in charge of for cleveland , the Chicago guys later apologized but rockman left the meeting with outa fuss,

when tronolone became boss for example he started dealing and wanting to control Jackie presser directly and instead of going through rockman and rockman accepted this what choice did he have ? the order came from nyc

[Villain]

Regarding the theoretical Rockman vs Licavoli and the whole "controlling" story. It's possible. But as for looking to put the pin on who was "most powerful" is a matter of perspective. Organization vs Operational.

Let's do Fantasy Family and imagine where an arrangement was made that Jack White would be Family Boss while Rockman's end was 95% of Family Profits. Outsiders look at the money and conclude its Rockman and there's a strong argument to suggest that anyone who has a 95 to 5 deal with the mob is pretty powerful. But organizationally, a Cleveland LCN Family meeting gets called, Rockman inst allowed in and Jack White is the top officer. To outsiders, Rockman is very much part of the Cleveland LCN, its history cannot be told without him. His, formally, not being a member factors into the organizational perspective but not the operational one which, without him, Cleveland's history wouldn't be the same.

Org vs Op. One doesn't transcend the other and together function as a pivot.

Nicely explained and thanks, although i have the same question but in hypothetical or fantasy version regarding the same matter....lets say a guy like Rockman was operational for at least 30 or 40 years, and held a high position next to the Italian bosses who in turn were replaced, lets say every 5 or 10 years for example....so my question is, did the guy like Rockman hold more seniority and influence than some of the recently placed bosses within the organization, by bringing loads of cash for the organization for quite a long time? We all know that money was/is the blood of the US CN....i know we are also talking about American CN here and according to all protocols, no matter how younger or recent was the boss than Rockman, still the boss is the boss...but besides the cash and protocol, wasnt there some type of senior advisory influence from the guy like Rockman over the high level Italian membership that was needed and very rarely rejected?

Im asking this because i can see Chicagos Alex having a similar role...not the operational one though but instead official hierarchial spot...same as Lansky and the Commission

no I don't think he gave jack white much money at all , according to lonardos testifmony he said he didn't get any money from the teamsters ,

according to lonardo once in Chicago rockman was asked to leave a meeting because rockman wasn't made and the meeting was about the vegas skim which rockman was in charge of for cleveland , the Chicago guys later apologized but rockman left the meeting with outa fuss,

when tronolone became boss for example he started dealing and wanting to control Jackie presser directly and instead of going through rockman and rockman accepted this what choice did he have ? the order came from nyc

Thanks and I understand. I also think that B previously mentioned in some of our past convos the same thing regarding Rockman leaving that meeting.

Well this reminds me that we can can also see that Alex is also missing from that famous Chicago Outfit 1976 group photo/high level meeting, but we have another pic(another high level meeting) from that same time period with Alex and the rest of the top leadership such as Accardo, Aiuppa, Cerone and their First Ward made guy Pat Marcy...so yeah, I thought that there was more than similarity between Rockman and Alex but it seems Rockman's situation was different within his own family. If it was regarding Chicago's interests in Vegas, they had at least one non-Italian present on some meetings with different families. Thanks again bud

Btw its quite interesting and funny that the Chicago guys later apologized to Rockman lol

[Angelo Santino]

Enjoying both Villain and Stroccos going back and forth. It's enlightening always.

[PolackTony]

Regarding the theoretical Rockman vs Licavoli and the whole "controlling" story. It's possible. But as for looking to put the pin on who was "most powerful" is a matter of perspective. Organization vs Operational.

Let's do Fantasy Family and imagine where an arrangement was made that Jack White would be Family Boss while Rockman's end was 95% of Family Profits. Outsiders look at the money and conclude its Rockman and there's a strong argument to suggest that anyone who has a 95 to 5 deal with the mob is pretty powerful. But organizationally, a Cleveland LCN Family meeting gets called, Rockman inst allowed in and Jack White is the top officer. To outsiders, Rockman is very much part of the Cleveland LCN, its history cannot be told without him. His, formally, not being a member factors into the organizational perspective but not the operational one which, without him, Cleveland's history wouldn't be the same.

Org vs Op. One doesn't transcend the other and together function as a pivot.

Nicely explained and thanks, although i have the same question but in hypothetical or fantasy version regarding the same matter....lets say a guy like Rockman was operational for at least 30 or 40 years, and held a high position next to the Italian bosses who in turn were replaced, lets say every 5 or 10 years for example....so my question is, did the guy like Rockman hold more seniority and influence than some of the recently placed bosses within the organization, by bringing loads of cash for the organization for quite a long time? We all know that money was/is the blood of the US CN....i know we are also talking about American CN here and according to all protocols, no matter how younger or recent was the boss than Rockman, still the boss is the boss...but besides the cash and protocol, wasnt there some type of senior advisory influence from the guy like Rockman over the high level Italian membership that was needed and very rarely rejected?

Im asking this because i can see Chicagos Alex having a similar role...not the operational one though but instead official hierarchial spot...same as Lansky and the Commission

no I don't think he gave jack white much money at all , according to lonardos testifmony he said he didn't get any money from the teamsters ,

according to lonardo once in Chicago rockman was asked to leave a meeting because rockman wasn't made and the meeting was about the vegas skim which rockman was in charge of for cleveland , the Chicago guys later apologized but rockman left the meeting with outa fuss,

when tronolone became boss for example he started dealing and wanting to control Jackie presser directly and instead of going through rockman and rockman accepted this what choice did he have ? the order came from nyc

Thanks and I understand. I also think that B previously mentioned in some of our past convos the same thing regarding Rockman leaving that meeting.

Well this reminds me that we can can also see that Alex is also missing from that famous Chicago Outfit 1976 group photo/high level meeting, but we have another pic(another high level meeting) from that same time period with Alex and the rest of the top leadership such as Accardo, Aiuppa, Cerone and their First Ward made guy Pat Marcy...so yeah, I thought that there was more than similarity between Rockman and Alex but it seems Rockman's situation was different within his own family. If it was regarding Chicago's interests in Vegas, they had at least one non-Italian present on some meetings with different families. Thanks again bud

Btw its quite interesting and funny that the Chicago guys later apologized to Rockman lol

I always interpreting Alex's absence from that photo as due to it being a Mafia/LCN function. I suppose perhaps he was just in FL at the time or sick, though no other high level non-made guys were there either.

[Villain]

Regarding the theoretical Rockman vs Licavoli and the whole "controlling" story. It's possible. But as for looking to put the pin on who was "most powerful" is a matter of perspective. Organization vs Operational.

Let's do Fantasy Family and imagine where an arrangement was made that Jack White would be Family Boss while Rockman's end was 95% of Family Profits. Outsiders look at the money and conclude its Rockman and there's a strong argument to suggest that anyone who has a 95 to 5 deal with the mob is pretty powerful. But organizationally, a Cleveland LCN Family meeting gets called, Rockman inst allowed in and Jack White is the top officer. To outsiders, Rockman is very much part of the Cleveland LCN, its history cannot be told without him. His, formally, not being a member factors into the organizational perspective but not the operational one which, without him, Cleveland's history wouldn't be the same.

Org vs Op. One doesn't transcend the other and together function as a pivot.

Nicely explained and thanks, although i have the same question but in hypothetical or fantasy version regarding the same matter....lets say a guy like Rockman was operational for at least 30 or 40 years, and held a high position next to the Italian bosses who in turn were replaced, lets say every 5 or 10 years for example....so my question is, did the guy like Rockman hold more seniority and influence than some of the recently placed bosses within the organization, by bringing loads of cash for the organization for quite a long time? We all know that money was/is the blood of the US CN....i know we are also talking about American CN here and according to all protocols, no matter how younger or recent was the boss than Rockman, still the boss is the boss...but besides the cash and protocol, wasnt there some type of senior advisory influence from the guy like Rockman over the high level Italian membership that was needed and very rarely rejected?

Im asking this because i can see Chicagos Alex having a similar role...not the operational one though but instead official hierarchial spot...same as Lansky and the Commission

no I don't think he gave jack white much money at all , according to lonardos testifmony he said he didn't get any money from the teamsters ,

according to lonardo once in Chicago rockman was asked to leave a meeting because rockman wasn't made and the meeting was about the vegas skim which rockman was in charge of for cleveland , the Chicago guys later apologized but rockman left the meeting with outa fuss,

when tronolone became boss for example he started dealing and wanting to control Jackie presser directly and instead of going through rockman and rockman accepted this what choice did he have ? the order came from nyc

Thanks and I understand. I also think that B previously mentioned in some of our past convos the same thing regarding Rockman leaving that meeting.

Well this reminds me that we can can also see that Alex is also missing from that famous Chicago Outfit 1976 group photo/high level meeting, but we have another pic(another high level meeting) from that same time period with Alex and the rest of the top leadership such as Accardo, Aiuppa, Cerone and their First Ward made guy Pat Marcy...so yeah, I thought that there was more than similarity between Rockman and Alex but it seems Rockman's situation was different within his own family. If it was regarding Chicago's interests in Vegas, they had at least one non-Italian present on some meetings with different families. Thanks again bud

Btw its quite interesting and funny that the Chicago guys later apologized to Rockman lol

I always interpreting Alex's absence from that photo as due to it being a Mafia/LCN function. I suppose perhaps he was just in FL at the time or sick, though no other high level non-made guys were there either.

My personal opinion is that besides being a send off for DiBella and Solano going up, the 1976 meeting was a pure Cosa Nostra issue. The meeting occurred right before the so-called "opening of the books" on the east coast, which corresponds with the numerous rumors and theories that during that period the Outfit began to "wake up" from the old Capone influence and took more of a traditional image. North Side district boss Joey DiVarco confirmed this to an extent.

And to tell you the truth, there numerous reports of Alex's refusing to sit down with these guys in public places, meaning he tried to reduce his contacts to a minimum. Although the late 70's picture very much surprised me with him, Accardo, Aiuppa, Cerone, Marcy and his brother Sam Alex but that particular pic was taken in some apartment, probably Marcy's place, which again confirms Alex's "under the radar" skills.

The difference between Rockman and Chicago's non-Italians is HUGE

For example, North Side member and old time Capone associate Benny Goldstein attended a meeting in small town near Los Angeles, with Ross Prio, Joseph Lisciandrello, Dominick DiBella together with the bosses from the Los Angeles crime family to talk future business in the Vegas casinos. He also attended a meeting in Miami Beach with Prio, Lisciandrello, DiVarco and Allegretti when they met with representatives of the Pittsburgh crime family regarding their shares in the Vegas Casinos. Giancana, Battaglia, Ferraro, Humphreys, Alex and Kruse were on meetings and carried on the negotiations with both the Cleveland and Detroit bosses regarding interests in the Las Vegas casinos etc.

Alex had an official spot and it was one of the top three spots...he was advised regarding policy in the organization. Alex and Accardo were the ones who convinced Aiuppa to go against narcotics...Alex was the one who beefed with the underboss and in the end it went Alex's way...Alex passed down contracts to other capos...again, HUGE difference between Rockman and Alex

[FriendofHenry]

Call me crazy, why not everyone else does, but I seem to recall that Tony Delsanter was thrown in the mix for Boss. Maybe FoF knows?

[B.]

It really depends on what's being discussed in a given meeting. If a meeting involves introductions as "amico nostra" or discussion of mafia ranks, politics, and protocol, a non-member would not be allowed in the room. If they are discussing money, business, or crime with no references to the mafia organization, a non-member would be allowed to participate. There is no rule that non-members can't meet with members, even bosses, and it has happened all the time throughout the history of the mafia. Only if the meeting concerns details relating to the mafia organization's inner workings and politics would a non-member would have to leave the room, possibly only temporarily while those matters are discussed.

However, exceptions are made in direct discussions between members and close associates. Member Vincent Asaro repeatedly told his non-member cousin Valenti about the ranks, membership, and politics of the mafia in private conversations, but Valenti was not allowed to attend meetings between other members where these matters were discussed, though he could attend meetings to discuss crime and business with members. Stefano LaTorre told his sons in Pittston all about the organization, its membership and history, but the sons were not members and would not have been included in organizational discussions with other members despite having inside knowledge as non-members.

St. Louis used a non-Italian in East St. Louis to arrange meetings with Chicago mafia leaders and the non-Italian in East St. Louis traveled with Tony Giordano to Chicago where he spent time with all of the made members, but he did not attend parts of the meeting where mafia protocol was discussed among the members.

--

http://www.americanmafia.com/Feature_Articles_231.html

Just saw the above about Joe Iacobacci, which includes this reference:

According to the FBI, Iacobacci was to use his influence with Mafia figures in New Jersey to open large bank accounts. Allegedly, one of his friends is Philip C. Abramo, a high-ranking member of the New Jersey-based DeCavalcante crime family and a man whose tentacles extend into Wall Street’s financial circles.

Does anyone know more about Joe Iacobacci's connections to the DeCavalcante family? The scam didn't pan out, but interesting he had ties to Abramo and the DeCavalcantes. Never heard this.

[Villain]

It really depends on what's being discussed in a given meeting. If a meeting involves introductions as "amico nostra" or discussion of mafia ranks, politics, and protocol, a non-member would not be allowed in the room. If they are discussing money, business, or crime with no references to the mafia organization, a non-member would be allowed to participate. There is no rule that non-members can't meet with members, even bosses, and it has happened all the time throughout the history of the mafia. Only if the meeting concerns details relating to the mafia organization's inner workings and politics would a non-member would have to leave the room, possibly only temporarily while those matters are discussed.

I completely agree on this. For example, when the Bonanno problem occurred, we can only see made members of the Outfit being involved, which means that when it came down to commission issues or various CN matters, only made members were allowed to participate. Even Humphreys confirmed this on a wiretap

But when it came down to schemes and money, non-Italians were often present on those same meetings, and this is only regarding national matters or schemes between various families but obviously not all.

BUT if the problem was ONLY within the Chicago family, thats when we can see the difference between the Outfit and the rest of the families, meaning guys like Alex were able to create policy for the organization and to even ask for a made guy's life. Also they were able to sit down with various Italian bosses from their own and other families, and you can never hear that any of the Chi non-Italian guys were ever chased out from some meeting. Thats the MAIN difference between Chicagos non-Italians and non-Italians from different families like Rockman or Watts....at least thats what you guys showed me regarding non-Itals from Cleveland or NY

[Villain]

Call me crazy, why not everyone else does, but I seem to recall that Tony Delsanter was thrown in the mix for Boss. Maybe FoF knows?

Can any1 comment on this?

[IrishDave]

http://www.americanmafia.com/Feature_Articles_231.html

Just saw the above about Joe Iacobacci, which includes this reference:

According to the FBI, Iacobacci was to use his influence with Mafia figures in New Jersey to open large bank accounts. Allegedly, one of his friends is Philip C. Abramo, a high-ranking member of the New Jersey-based DeCavalcante crime family and a man whose tentacles extend into Wall Street’s financial circles.

Does anyone know more about Joe Iacobacci's connections to the DeCavalcante family? The scam didn't pan out, but interesting he had ties to Abramo and the DeCavalcantes. Never heard this.

https://m.clevescene.com/cleveland/with ... id=1488711

This article goes more in depth.