General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[PolackTony]

@Villain, who's the Doria that Inciso referred to?

[Villain]

@Villain, who's the Doria that Inciso referred to?

Anthony Doria...dont know which family he belonged to...Lukes or LA maybe?

[Coloboy]

Figured this thread was as good of a place as any to pose this question.

Most sources peg Jimmy Marcello as the day to day boss during the period between his release from prison in 2002 and his arrest for Family Secrets in 2005. It seems logical. It is my opinion that John Difronzo was still in the Accardo/Ricca role of Top Boss at this time, but I realize we do not have enough info to confirm this.

My question is who do you guys peg as the #2, or Underboss, during this time? A lot of news articles name Zizzo as the #2. I don't think that is correct. It seems Zizzo was more of a personal underboss or top lieutenant to Marcello, the guy who was overseeing his interests on the street as the point man for the old Melrose Park faction of the Cicero crew. If outfit history tell us anything, it is that the day to day boss and the #2 are pretty much never from the same crew. Aiuppa/Cerone, Carlisi/DIfronzo, etc. So it is unlikely to me that Zizzo filled that role.

Thoughts?

[PolackTony]

Figured this thread was as good of a place as any to pose this question.

Most sources peg Jimmy Marcello as the day to day boss during the period between his release from prison in 2002 and his arrest for Family Secrets in 2005. It seems logical. It is my opinion that John Difronzo was still in the Accardo/Ricca role of Top Boss at this time, but I realize we do not have enough info to confirm this.

My question is who do you guys peg as the #2, or Underboss, during this time? A lot of news articles name Zizzo as the #2. I don't think that is correct. It seems Zizzo was more of a personal underboss or top lieutenant to Marcello, the guy who was overseeing his interests on the street as the point man for the old Melrose Park faction of the Cicero crew. If outfit history tell us anything, it is that the day to day boss and the #2 are pretty much never from the same crew. Aiuppa/Cerone, Carlisi/DIfronzo, etc. So it is unlikely to me that Zizzo filled that role.

Thoughts?

Some people think Lombardo was underboss at this time, others think he was "senior advisor". I've also seen people claim that Lombardo was "street boss" during this period, but I still haven't been able to verify if this position even existed in Chicago (maybe it was the "relay man" role that Buccieri once played). You're right about the boss/underboss historically not coming from the same crew of course, I think this was an important power sharing tradition that helped to ease tensions between Outfit factions.

I'm thinking that Tornabene, Sarno, or even Andriacchi could've been underboss in this period. Looking forward to seeing if anyone has anything more definite.

What did Nicky Calabrese say about the underboss?

[Villain]

If DiFrinzo was still considered one of the top bosses at the time, than it is possible that Andriacchi was the number 2 guy. If not, then it was either Sarno or maybe some1 else...i cannot think of many time periods when the Outfit had a boss and underboss coming from same crew... it rarely happened and so Zizzo and Tornabene are off...i see Tornabene as possible senior advisor who took a step back for Marcello

Who knows, maybe it a sign for EPs semi-closure when Sarno and Cataudella kept the two top spots...

[Snakes]

I don't think they had one, to be honest.

[PolackTony]

If DiFrinzo was still considered one of the top bosses at the time, than it is possible that Andriacchi was the number 2 guy. If not, then it was either Sarno or maybe some1 else...i cannot think of many time periods when the Outfit had a boss and underboss coming from same crew... it rarely happened and so Zizzo and Tornabene are off...i see Tornabene as possible senior advisor who took a step back for Marcello

Who knows, maybe it a sign for EPs semi-closure when Sarno and Cataudella kept the two top spots...

Yes, good points. Tornabene I still find a bit confusing. We know that he was under MP of course but then I recall some speculation that at least during the 90s he was direct with the admin. I recall also that after Johnny Apes died Tornabene was seen meeting with Zizzo, Andriacchi and other top guys, and the thinking at the time was that he was in admin as a possible underboss to Jimmy Lights. If it were the case that Tornabene presided over the '83 making ceremony (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong) then I think this indicates that at the time he already occupied some influential position. I don't know of him ever being an official crew capo or area boss, so not sure how to interpret his position and role over the years.

Also I think the more firmly we can frame Andriacchi's role during this period, the better we can understand the question of to what degree EP was shelved or deactivated.

If Sarno was underboss then I suppose Cautadella played the same role (top lieutenant or crew underboss) for Sarno as Zizzo played for Marcello as boss?

[PolackTony]

I don't think they had one, to be honest.

Just to make sure, when Nicky Calabrese layer out the Outfit structure, what did he say then about the underboss/#2 position?

Also Snakes, what about the Outfit having a "street boss" or equivalent position under a different title? BokaBreeze on Reddit for example claims that Lombardo was "street boss" during this period and I don't know what to make of that claim.

[Snakes]

I don't think they had one, to be honest.

Just to make sure, when Nicky Calabrese layer out the Outfit structure, what did he say then about the underboss/#2 position?

Also Snakes, what about the Outfit having a "street boss" or equivalent position under a different title? BokaBreeze on Reddit for example claims that Lombardo was "street boss" during this period and I don't know what to make of that claim.

a) I wouldn't listen to anyone on Reddit, especially that geek. He somehow gets good photos (I'm not on Facebook but I think he gets some from relatives or groups there) but I don't think he possesses any intimate knowledge. In fact, he sounds like he just makes up a lot of stuff and I have noticed him getting defensive when he gets called out on mistakes.

b) Nick said boss (what we call day-to-day boss) succession was Accardo>Aiuppa>Carlisi>Monteleone. Underboss/#2 was Aiuppa>Cerone. Nobody was mentioned as a #2 after Cerone. It could be that Nick didn't know or they didn't have an active #2. DiFronzo may have been default #2 once Carlisi started spending more time in Florida but I don't think it has ever been definitively stated. It could have just been Carlisi saying "DiFronzo is in charge when I'm gone." Gerald Scarpelli didn't know who the #2 was or if they even had one. He guessed Ferriola but it sounded like he was assigning that role based on his perception of Ferriola's power within the organization rather than any official rank.

[Snakes]

If DiFrinzo was still considered one of the top bosses at the time, than it is possible that Andriacchi was the number 2 guy. If not, then it was either Sarno or maybe some1 else...i cannot think of many time periods when the Outfit had a boss and underboss coming from same crew... it rarely happened and so Zizzo and Tornabene are off...i see Tornabene as possible senior advisor who took a step back for Marcello

Who knows, maybe it a sign for EPs semi-closure when Sarno and Cataudella kept the two top spots...

Yes, good points. Tornabene I still find a bit confusing. We know that he was under MP of course but then I recall some speculation that at least during the 90s he was direct with the admin. I recall also that after Johnny Apes died Tornabene was seen meeting with Zizzo, Andriacchi and other top guys, and the thinking at the time was that he was in admin as a possible underboss to Jimmy Lights. If it were the case that Tornabene presided over the '83 making ceremony (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong) then I think this indicates that at the time he already occupied some influential position. I don't know of him ever being an official crew capo or area boss, so not sure how to interpret his position and role over the years.

Also I think the more firmly we can frame Andriacchi's role during this period, the better we can understand the question of to what degree EP was shelved or deactivated.

If Sarno was underboss then I suppose Cautadella played the same role (top lieutenant or crew underboss) for Sarno as Zizzo played for Marcello as boss?

Tornabene was identified as the day-to-day boss after Monteleone died. He also acted as MP boss while Marcello was imprisoned.

It is difficult to peg Andriacchi as he is still alive and was never indicted so much of the information that can be gleaned concerning him is redacted or has yet to be discovered.

[Frank]

Didnt LE say that they misidentified Zizzo as underboss.

[Frank]

Also as we have talked about before, Frank Calabrese said that Joe Andriacchi was boss. John DiFronzo didnt want it. That seems to be a log jam for that whole time period. Because Johnny Monteleone is also identified as boss. They only thing I can think of is Either Frank was wrong or he was talking aboutan earlier time period. Or they had 2 bosses. Or Andriacchi held they Accardo/ Ricca type position.Another thought is that Monteleone was acting for Carlisi and DiFronzo was official underboss, than stepped down for Andriacchi.

[Frank]

Also on most charts Andriacchi is listed as underboss under Marcello. Than stepped down when he was diagnosed with cancer.

[Snakes]

Also as we have talked about before, Frank Calabrese said that Joe Andriacchi was boss. John DiFronzo didnt want it. That seems to be a log jam for that whole time period. Because Johnny Monteleone is also identified as boss. They only thing I can think of is Either Frank was wrong or he was talking aboutan earlier time period. Or they had 2 bosses. Or Andriacchi held they Accardo/ Ricca type position.Another thought is that Monteleone was acting for Carlisi and DiFronzo was official underboss, than stepped down for Andriacchi.

Frank also talks about Monteleone being the boss in other conversations so unless he is talking about being boss in a different sense. Maybe as the top boss with Monteleone as day-to-day? Who knows, I don't think there will be a clear answer anytime soon. I don't remember Andriacchi ever officially being identified as underboss (or Marcello as boss, although it could be heavily inferred).

You are right, this time period is a mess.

[Frank]

Also as we have talked about before, Frank Calabrese said that Joe Andriacchi was boss. John DiFronzo didnt want it. That seems to be a log jam for that whole time period. Because Johnny Monteleone is also identified as boss. They only thing I can think of is Either Frank was wrong or he was talking aboutan earlier time period. Or they had 2 bosses. Or Andriacchi held they Accardo/ Ricca type position.Another thought is that Monteleone was acting for Carlisi and DiFronzo was official underboss, than stepped down for Andriacchi.

Frank also talks about Monteleone being the boss in other conversations so unless he is talking about being boss in a different sense. Maybe as the top boss with Monteleone as day-to-day? Who knows, I don't think there will be a clear answer anytime soon. I don't remember Andriacchi ever officially being identified as underboss (or Marcello as boss, although it could be heavily inferred).

You are right, this time period is a mess.

Other things to consider. Was Carlisi boss till he died. Also even though he was about 87 when he was released, did Aiuppa have a position still?
Did Carlisi name Marcello as his successor? There is alot of positions that were never officially confirmed by FBI. Andriacchis name came up in the Zizzo murder/ disappearance as someone he was going to meet with that day. Sounded like a sitdown that never happened.