NJ Loanshark Bust

[NJShore4Life]

Also, is it really just money on paper and the mob didn't really lose it? The bookie pays the winners with money from the losers. If the loser doesn't pay, isn't that coming out of the bookie's pocket?

Yup, thats how it works. The goal is to have similar amounts of money bet on each side so it evens out and then take your 10-15% fee from the money wagered. If one loser doesnt pay up then you would have to cut into your profits to pay the winner. I wonder what percentage of bettors end up not paying?

Nah ehh sorta. That whole 50-50 thing isn’t real. If you’re a major casino. Sure. The average guy in the neighborhood? Nah. these guys are losers. And giants fans bet giants on giant games. On monday night everyone is on the fave and the over. Its not like ppl think. Very rare u get even money. A big game against two really
Good teams. Ya. But yankees vs a really bad team regardless of the line youre getting yankee action. If its too much u lay off. But even that. Again these guys are losers. Why call in losers to someone else? They dont want to win. They want action on the game. Sometimes sunday night makes or breaks a week. Thats how much one sided action u get. Ask a friend in the biz. I bet they say same thing.

And guys im not talking tony napoli’s layoff room. Im talking a guy who had 15-20 guys who bet $100-$1000. Why would they want even money? Risk an arrest for a vig on $1000? Nah. Thats not real life.

Cheech knows his shit, listen to him as he’s spot on here folks.

[Wiseguy]

Also, is it really just money on paper and the mob didn't really lose it? The bookie pays the winners with money from the losers. If the loser doesn't pay, isn't that coming out of the bookie's pocket?

Yup, thats how it works. The goal is to have similar amounts of money bet on each side so it evens out and then take your 10-15% fee from the money wagered. If one loser doesnt pay up then you would have to cut into your profits to pay the winner. I wonder what percentage of bettors end up not paying?

Nah ehh sorta. That whole 50-50 thing isn’t real. If you’re a major casino. Sure. The average guy in the neighborhood? Nah. these guys are losers. And giants fans bet giants on giant games. On monday night everyone is on the fave and the over. Its not like ppl think. Very rare u get even money. A big game against two really
Good teams. Ya. But yankees vs a really bad team regardless of the line youre getting yankee action. If its too much u lay off. But even that. Again these guys are losers. Why call in losers to someone else? They dont want to win. They want action on the game. Sometimes sunday night makes or breaks a week. Thats how much one sided action u get. Ask a friend in the biz. I bet they say same thing.

And guys im not talking tony napoli’s layoff room. Im talking a guy who had 15-20 guys who bet $100-$1000. Why would they want even money? Risk an arrest for a vig on $1000? Nah. Thats not real life.

In your scenario, is the bookie taking bets from 15-20 guys players with a larger operation (the whole "half sheet" thing)? If so, I would assume it's the larger operation, i.e. the mob, that would would be doing the laying off no?

And anyway, whether you're the local bookie taking direct action from players, or the larger operation taking the action from multiple bookies like him, doesn't not balancing your bets basically turn you into a gambler yourself since your money is now exposed?

I remember Freselone talking about how his guy that took bets in his bookmaking operation was basically a degenerate gambler himself who would often take lopsided action without Freselone knowing, seemingly forgetting he was a bookie and not a bettor. Freselone said he usually didn't make a big deal about it because they could make it up within a couple weeks but why conduct business that way if you don't necessarily need to?

[jmack]

Also, is it really just money on paper and the mob didn't really lose it? The bookie pays the winners with money from the losers. If the loser doesn't pay, isn't that coming out of the bookie's pocket?

Yup, thats how it works. The goal is to have similar amounts of money bet on each side so it evens out and then take your 10-15% fee from the money wagered. If one loser doesnt pay up then you would have to cut into your profits to pay the winner. I wonder what percentage of bettors end up not paying?

Nah ehh sorta. That whole 50-50 thing isn’t real. If you’re a major casino. Sure. The average guy in the neighborhood? Nah. these guys are losers. And giants fans bet giants on giant games. On monday night everyone is on the fave and the over. Its not like ppl think. Very rare u get even money. A big game against two really
Good teams. Ya. But yankees vs a really bad team regardless of the line youre getting yankee action. If its too much u lay off. But even that. Again these guys are losers. Why call in losers to someone else? They dont want to win. They want action on the game. Sometimes sunday night makes or breaks a week. Thats how much one sided action u get. Ask a friend in the biz. I bet they say same thing.

And guys im not talking tony napoli’s layoff room. Im talking a guy who had 15-20 guys who bet $100-$1000. Why would they want even money? Risk an arrest for a vig on $1000? Nah. Thats not real life.

This. Your typical neighborhood guy isn’t looking for diversified action. Hell, he isn’t even moving the line. He’s getting it from Vegas. He has no prayer at even action on both sides. The smart local bookie moves the home line slightly in his favor, that’s about it.

[Cheech]

Also, is it really just money on paper and the mob didn't really lose it? The bookie pays the winners with money from the losers. If the loser doesn't pay, isn't that coming out of the bookie's pocket?

Yup, thats how it works. The goal is to have similar amounts of money bet on each side so it evens out and then take your 10-15% fee from the money wagered. If one loser doesnt pay up then you would have to cut into your profits to pay the winner. I wonder what percentage of bettors end up not paying?

Nah ehh sorta. That whole 50-50 thing isn’t real. If you’re a major casino. Sure. The average guy in the neighborhood? Nah. these guys are losers. And giants fans bet giants on giant games. On monday night everyone is on the fave and the over. Its not like ppl think. Very rare u get even money. A big game against two really
Good teams. Ya. But yankees vs a really bad team regardless of the line youre getting yankee action. If its too much u lay off. But even that. Again these guys are losers. Why call in losers to someone else? They dont want to win. They want action on the game. Sometimes sunday night makes or breaks a week. Thats how much one sided action u get. Ask a friend in the biz. I bet they say same thing.

And guys im not talking tony napoli’s layoff room. Im talking a guy who had 15-20 guys who bet $100-$1000. Why would they want even money? Risk an arrest for a vig on $1000? Nah. Thats not real life.

In your scenario, is the bookie taking bets from 15-20 guys players with a larger operation (the whole "half sheet" thing)? If so, I would assume it's the larger operation, i.e. the mob, that would would be doing the laying off no?

And anyway, whether you're the local bookie taking direct action from players, or the larger operation taking the action from multiple bookies like him, doesn't not balancing your bets basically turn you into a gambler yourself since your money is now exposed?

I remember Freselone talking about how his guy that took bets in his bookmaking operation was basically a degenerate gambler himself who would often take lopsided action without Freselone knowing, seemingly forgetting he was a bookie and not a bettor. Freselone said he usually didn't make a big deal about it because they could make it up within a couple weeks but why conduct business that way if you don't necessarily need to?

In your scenario, is the bookie taking bets from 15-20 guys players with a larger operation (the whole "half sheet" thing)? If so, I would assume it's the larger operation, i.e. the mob, that would would be doing the laying off no? (no half sheet. just him. maybe in gene's world in queens its all mob run but its not like that all over. plenty of people operate "alone." if youre on a halfsheet you dont care, its the master agent who cares.)

And anyway, whether you're the local bookie taking direct action from players, or the larger operation taking the action from multiple bookies like him, doesn't not balancing your bets basically turn you into a gambler yourself since your money is now exposed? (its all gambling man, its why there in it. 90% bet themselves. the action! people used to ask, are you and ie or an or which meant are you a bookie or a bettor and a lot times you were both. that aside you are already getting +110 on all your bets not including parlays or variations of them like reverses or round robins or. all the odds are in your favor long term. the players are making _EV bets. meaning their probability is negative they will win. any bettor that plays + EV games and beats lines are chased. no one wants winners. you arent on this too pay out every week.
its almost impossible to layoff nowadays any way and I'll explain why. its all computer now. no ones on the phone. whats that mean? people are betting 24/7. in the past bookies had hours of operation. typical in the summer is 12-1 from baseball day then back at 6-8 for the rest of the night. Saturday was broken throughout the day. and sunday was 11-1 then 3-4. wasnt a night game on sunday yet. then monday 730-9. you wrote it all down so you controlled the line. you were the one giving it out. now its all automated. the line moves for you. so lets say you got a bunch of money on a soccer bet at 11 am on a sunday. you watching the screen? fuck no. but lets say you are. you then have to login into another bookies website and lay it off and hope it you got the same line or better. if its worse you cant risk losing both bets. or a night game in la dodgers at 1030. youre not awake watching the screen. youre past out. you'll check score in the morning. long term they all lose. and if you cant consistently lay off you dont. cause you wind up laying off the losers and keeping the winners. trust me, youll be kicking yourself all fucking night,)



I remember Freselone talking about how his guy that took bets in his bookmaking operation was basically a degenerate gambler himself who would often take lopsided action without Freselone knowing, seemingly forgetting he was a bookie and not a bettor. Freselone said he usually didn't make a big deal about it because they could make it up within a couple weeks but why conduct business that way if you don't necessarily need to?
IDK, thats 30 years ago. i cant really comment.


im not saying laying off doesnt happen, or sometimes on a big money game like the super bowl youll take 10k on both sides, some parlays and some props and be happy. im just saying it doesnt happen like everyone says. you aint working this life (bookie life) to win the vig trust me. read the perna indictment in the fbi section (i know you have) they have all the tapes. all they are doing is calling in and checking the bottom line thorughout the day. no one laying off a thing. i dont even recall them asking who the exposure is meaning who they need to lose. they dont care.
there sheet is red every week and when it isnt they know. one guy is beating them and beating the line. they recognize it right away and tell him they want the plays and they can get them outs. thats how it works. now perna finds outs for the + EV bettor and they form a partnership and split it some type of way. 50-50 or whatever. and round and round it goes.

you want as much action as possible because you now you are going to win 4-7% of the total handle long term. depending on the sport. pro football lines are the sharpest because of all the equity in the market. by the time the game goes off at 12:59 thats the most efficient that line will be. still most bettors wait til the last minute. if you are a serious bettor, you bet the opening number. closing line value or CLV is the most important thing to the serious bettor.

if you run it like a business (less credit for wnba and certain sports you know are easier to beat more for nfl harder to beat) and you are smart you can make a lot of money.

[Cheech]

Also, is it really just money on paper and the mob didn't really lose it? The bookie pays the winners with money from the losers. If the loser doesn't pay, isn't that coming out of the bookie's pocket?

Yup, thats how it works. The goal is to have similar amounts of money bet on each side so it evens out and then take your 10-15% fee from the money wagered. If one loser doesnt pay up then you would have to cut into your profits to pay the winner. I wonder what percentage of bettors end up not paying?

Nah ehh sorta. That whole 50-50 thing isn’t real. If you’re a major casino. Sure. The average guy in the neighborhood? Nah. these guys are losers. And giants fans bet giants on giant games. On monday night everyone is on the fave and the over. Its not like ppl think. Very rare u get even money. A big game against two really
Good teams. Ya. But yankees vs a really bad team regardless of the line youre getting yankee action. If its too much u lay off. But even that. Again these guys are losers. Why call in losers to someone else? They dont want to win. They want action on the game. Sometimes sunday night makes or breaks a week. Thats how much one sided action u get. Ask a friend in the biz. I bet they say same thing.

And guys im not talking tony napoli’s layoff room. Im talking a guy who had 15-20 guys who bet $100-$1000. Why would they want even money? Risk an arrest for a vig on $1000? Nah. Thats not real life.

This. Your typical neighborhood guy isn’t looking for diversified action. Hell, he isn’t even moving the line. He’s getting it from Vegas. He has no prayer at even action on both sides. The smart local bookie moves the home line slightly in his favor, that’s about it.

correct, its all automated and it originates offshore then vegas copies. CRIS sets the line then everyone copies it. on air regardless of their exposure in there sheet. its just how it works now. its all software. ill give you an example. the other day betcris put out a second half line n the toronto - brooklyn game at -3. that was an error. but william hill and a ton of other books copied the bad line. once it was taken off the board and corrected everyone else corrected too. see attachments.


im giving away too much for free

[Cheech]

the market saw three and pounced. thats why within minutes it goes to -4. william hill gets in at -4. at 2:47 betcris realizes its a bad line whle william hill is still dealing 4.5 and doesnt correct until betcris corrects. william hill wasnt the only book to just copy it. a dozen others did. its how it works nowadays. it isnt some linemaker at the mirage with a chalkboard and an eraser

[Wiseguy]

Interesting. Thanks for the breakdown.

From what I understand, Betcris sets the line basically because they're the largest. It wasn't that long ago that Las Vegas Sports Consultants (LVSC) did a lot of that.

[jmack]

the market saw three and pounced. thats why within minutes it goes to -4. william hill gets in at -4. at 2:47 betcris realizes its a bad line whle william hill is still dealing 4.5 and doesnt correct until betcris corrects. william hill wasnt the only book to just copy it. a dozen others did. its how it works nowadays. it isnt some linemaker at the mirage with a chalkboard and an eraser

You’re correct. You see the same line 95% of the time. All they do is adjust the juice based on the action they are taking.

[Rocco]

bullshit these guys get stiffed allot. no one is willing to do life over $8k most wont even do the 7yrs for loansharking. If Gioe is willing to life or 7yrs for $8k. good for him. maybe if my cousin owed 175k he would have come back heavy. but for 8k you aint going to war

I think you're overstating things. Yes, the MO has increasingly been to simply cut a deadbeat off rather than risk arrest by putting them in the hospital. Especially if the money isn't worth the risk. But a bookie or loanshark can only let that go so far. You let too many guys skip out on paying, the money lost over time becomes significant and they look like a mark to everyone else. Doesn't seem to be a winning business model.

And you were even going beyond that by suggesting the debtor not only not pay, but actually go and rough up the loanshark. In what world does this happen? What serious mob-backed bookie or loanshark is going to stand for that? We still read about cases of guys looking to get out of debt to the mob by fleeing to the government. I don't recall too many stories of a mob bookie or loanshark waking up in the hospital because one of their debtors worked them over.

you have no personal knowledge of any that you just said. Bookies get burned all the fuckin time. This article is a completely different scenario and involved a very large sum of money where people are more likely to make an attempt to collect it and risk 7yrs in jail for loansharking. 99% of the time bookies are not looking to go to jail and will look for help in collecting large sums of cash they come up short on. if they are doing very well they will eat a couple grand and cut off a gambler if he is a repeat offender. Money has to be worth the risk.

[Pogo The Clown]

If it were like you said the bookmaking and loansharking business wouldn't exist and the mob would be out of business.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

you have no personal knowledge of any that you just said. Bookies get burned all the fuckin time. This article is a completely different scenario and involved a very large sum of money where people are more likely to make an attempt to collect it and risk 7yrs in jail for loansharking. 99% of the time bookies are not looking to go to jail and will look for help in collecting large sums of cash they come up short on. if they are doing very well they will eat a couple grand and cut off a gambler if he is a repeat offender. Money has to be worth the risk.

I agree a bookie today will weigh the risk vs reward when it comes time to collect, I'm mainly talking about your make believe scenario of some bettor who owes money grabbing a couple buddies, beating up the bookie he owes, and not suffering far worse repercussions. Maybe if this is some small time bookie with no backing. But you know as well as I do, Rocco, that's just not happening to a mobbed up one.

[NJShore4Life]

Gyms finally back open here in Jersey, my arms were starting to look like an old lady’s cunt! Feels great to be back pumping iron

[Rocco]

you have no personal knowledge of any that you just said. Bookies get burned all the fuckin time. This article is a completely different scenario and involved a very large sum of money where people are more likely to make an attempt to collect it and risk 7yrs in jail for loansharking. 99% of the time bookies are not looking to go to jail and will look for help in collecting large sums of cash they come up short on. if they are doing very well they will eat a couple grand and cut off a gambler if he is a repeat offender. Money has to be worth the risk.

I agree a bookie today will weigh the risk vs reward when it comes time to collect, I'm mainly talking about your make believe scenario of some bettor who owes money grabbing a couple buddies, beating up the bookie he owes, and not suffering far worse repercussions. Maybe if this is some small time bookie with no backing. But you know as well as I do, Rocco, that's just not happening to a mobbed up one.

The mob will take money from anyone. But they are only gonna get involved physically if they are making allot of money off you. If you made them allot of money in the past for years...now you are no longer making that much money...you are a nobody. My cousin was a violent felon / gambling addict junkie/functioning alcoholic. He had a disagreement w/ a loan he got from a bookie friend. I suspect it was over a woman that caused the terms of his loan to change.. But it led to 2 altercations. One directly with the bookie in Arthurs Steak house parking lot which did not end well for the bookie. And the final one when the Bookie Brought a juiced up kid with him. Did not end well again because employees of my cousins jumped in and that was that. There was no repercussions. He had paid a few months vig prior to the altercations and that was it. Now I find it hard to believe that the bookie was not kicking up to someone in NJ . I would have to assume he 100% was. With that said.. is the bookie cant collect a couple grand himself...he is on his own unless he is bringing in bigtime money for the mob. There are allot of dead beat gamblers that skate. Nearly every book of biz has them.

[NJShore4Life]

Which Arthur’s location?

Just out of Sheer curiosity, because I don’t think the location in Hoboken has a parking lot if I recall correctly. I used to live in Hoboken right down the street from the Arthur’s location there back in my 20s.

[Rocco]

Which Arthur’s location?

Just out of Sheer curiosity, because I don’t think the location in Hoboken has a parking lot if I recall correctly. I used to live in Hoboken right down the street from the Arthur’s location there back in my 20s.

North Brunswick on Georges Rd. Right off of Rt 1. Its been there forever. Not sure if its the same owner as the Hoboken one. But the one is Morris Plains is I think the same owner as the Hoboken one.