Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

[Dr031718]

Thanks for your insights Scott. Much appreciated

[scott22]

Re. Detroit's less formal structure and the Licavoli crew.

Rubino might have officially been "acting" but he called shots for the Licavoli crew with total autonomy.

The DET LCN roles have always been less traditionally defined. For example, Licavoli was a capo, but had a "vote," Tony Z was underboss and operated a crew. Machine Gun Pete Corrado was a capo but acted more as an underboss, co-underboss with Angelo Meli/street boss with Scarface Joe. Little Vince Meli was a capo for most of his career but had considerable more power than a normal capo.

SMB

[Angelo Santino]

Re. Detroit's less formal structure and the Licavoli crew.

Rubino might have officially been "acting" but he called shots for the Licavoli crew with total autonomy.

The DET LCN roles have always been less traditionally defined. For example, Licavoli was a capo, but had a "vote," Tony Z was underboss and operated a crew. Machine Gun Pete Corrado was a capo but acted more as an underboss, co-underboss with Angelo Meli/street boss with Scarface Joe. Little Vince Meli was a capo for most of his career but had considerable more power than a normal capo.

SMB

How certain are we that Detroit was "less formal" or "more organic?" When I tried to compile a 1963 Detroit chart I ran into problems. The FBI really only confirms that Mike Polizzi and Billy Giacalone as captains. Beyond that it was speculation and as I kept going I stopped because I felt like I was doing Fantasy Family.

There's organizational (mafia membership) and operational (functionality of the org.) If I'm a soldier heading a store and you hold the rank of capo and work at it, we're not going to clarify that to the world that you technically outrank me. Yet from outsiders taking pictures it would appear I'm in a leading position. However, when called to a formal Family members meeting, I'm going there as a soldier, you're going there as a capo and it's black and white to them. Zerilli wouldn't say: meh, Chris has been acting "more than a soldier" so we'll call him crew boss and eventually I'll get around to calling him capo. I don't think that's how it works. Functionality doesn't always equate to formality.

Tony Besase of Toledo was formally a soldier in the Licavoli/Rubano crew. Any rank of "crew boss" levied onto him is an outsider description to describe his functionality. We see Besase "in charge" of Toledo and using "soldier" as a description doesn't seem accurate to us, but was his formal position. Are we sure we're not falling into that? When you debriefed Tony Z did he specifically say Detroit had 17 capodecina/regimes in the 1960's?

Thanks.

[Angelo Santino]

Spoke on the phone with Scott Burnstein, man's career is blossoming. In a few years he'll be at the Playboy Mansion and we'll all still be assholes on a forum, lol. Anyways, he told me about a film I never heard about- Green Book based on Tony Lip's (Carmine Lupertazzi) life in the 60's. 20 mins in, not bad, check it out.

[scott22]

Always enjoy our chats, CC.

Toledo didnt have a capo, just a crew boss. Essentially, the same thing, but Besase still officially reported to a capo. Joe Zerilli assigned Billy Giacalone responsibility for Toledo in the late 1950s-early 1960s when his brother Tony was taking over as street boss. Toledo is less than a hour-drive from Detroit and there was a lot of Motown mob action there into the 2000s. I'm not sure what's going on right now, honestly. In the 2000s, the Det LCN got caught point shaving UofToledo football and basketball, couple of middle-eastern associates went to prison for it (one, "Steady Eddie" Karam, was a pretty big deal, close to Jackie, PT & Allen). Steady Eddie died of COVID in April. Lot of DET LCN guys had mistresses in Toledo. Tony Z famously kept a black woman named "Fifi" who ran a popular club and restaurant as his Ohio sidepiece. Had a kid with her. Didn't go over with the boys in Detroit, helped lay groundwork for some of this soap opera that lay ahead in the 2000s,2010s. Spent his first week out of prison from the Frontier skim bust in '78 on a "Toledo tune-up" at Fifi's, not with his wife Rosalie (Joe Profaci's daughter). Bad form.

I digress though, the ins and outs of the DET LCN Zerilli-TOCCO soap opera are pretty pulpy, very Shakespearean in so many ways.

Anthony "Whitey" Besase died in 1976 and & then Neuferio "Tony Scott" Scotti & Anthony (Tony Spaghetti) Mollica ran the crew. Charlie the Shark had it for a period of time as well. Chalky Red and Slick Shapiro were some of the Toledo Jewish guys of note than ran with the DET LCN.

SMB

[Villain]

.....

Scott, a little bit off topic...do you know what was the real reason behind the beef between Chicago and Detriot regarding the Frontier? I mean i know that the Detriot fam refused to give 15 pounts to the Outfit and Roselli was probably to blame for, but previously both families were in quite good relations and so i wonder what really happened since i havent seen many close collaborations after that?

[Angelo Santino]

Always enjoy our chats, CC.

Toledo didnt have a capo, just a crew boss. Essentially, the same thing, but Besase still officially reported to a capo. Joe Zerilli assigned Billy Giacalone responsibility for Toledo in the late 1950s-early 1960s when his brother Tony was taking over as street boss. Toledo is less than a hour-drive from Detroit and there was a lot of Motown mob action there into the 2000s. I'm not sure what's going on right now, honestly. In the 2000s, the Det LCN got caught point shaving UofToledo football and basketball, couple of middle-eastern associates went to prison for it (one, "Steady Eddie" Karam, was a pretty big deal, close to Jackie, PT & Allen). Steady Eddie died of COVID in April. Lot of DET LCN guys had mistresses in Toledo. Tony Z famously kept a black woman named "Fifi" who ran a popular club and restaurant as his Ohio sidepiece. Had a kid with her. Didn't go over with the boys in Detroit, helped lay groundwork for some of this soap opera that lay ahead in the 2000s,2010s. Spent his first week out of prison from the Frontier skim bust in '78 on a "Toledo tune-up" at Fifi's, not with his wife Rosalie (Joe Profaci's daughter). Bad form.

I digress though, the ins and outs of the DET LCN Zerilli-TOCCO soap opera are pretty pulpy, very Shakespearean in so many ways.

Anthony "Whitey" Besase died in 1976 and & then Neuferio "Tony Scott" Scotti & Anthony (Tony Spaghetti) Mollica ran the crew. Charlie the Shark had it for a period of time as well. Chalky Red and Slick Shapiro were some of the Toledo Jewish guys of note than ran with the DET LCN.

SMB

Likewise, we may go years without speaking and our meetups never happen (my fault) but you're a friend. That doesn't change.

The insider stuff is amazing, you're a walking encyclopedia of the Detroit mob. I'd like to see a photo of Fifi, just curious, lol. Michiganders know Ohio for one reason: Cedar Point!

Regarding Toledo. From the FBI reports I got the impression that Besase was (in 1960's) a relatively new member because Tony Scott said to him: "You got made, so now you think you're a bigshot." This got back to Zerilli who asked why Besase didn't slap him for saying that and then went onto wonder how Scott knew Besase was made. I got the impression that Besase was a soldier in the Licavoli crew and that Scott was an associate of the Giacalone crew and that both Besase and Scott weren't affiliated as crew boss and soldier.

We spoke of splitting hairs and maybe we are. This goes into Operational vs Organizational and neither view is any less irrelevant. If we take down all the non-Itals and the associates and just look primarily at the Detroit Mafia membership that's organizational, but it's misleading if we're looking at the group's influence: non-Italians and non-members play an intricate and important part, without them Detroit or any other city wouldn't be what it was.

Good luck on your trip, I'll be in and out of the doctors appointments until mid-week and we'll reconvene. Good luck and a salut.

PS: I thought Mollica was with a Cleveland Associate. Hmm. Interesting how Jack Licavoli, Moceri, Delsanter got their start affiliated with Detroit and either transferred their membership or were made later with Cleveland and went on to head that Family.

[Dr031718]

Would love to hear more stories on Detroit as I think they are a fascinating family

[scott22]

I actually just came across Mollica's role in Detroit's Toledo crew affairs. He was out of Mansfield, OHIO. I didn't completely realize his importance until a couple of new sources popped up recently, one of them being Whitey Besase's grandson.

SMB

[Angelo Santino]

I actually just came across Mollica's role in Detroit's Toledo crew affairs. He was out of Mansfield, OHIO. I didn't completely realize his importance until a couple of new sources popped up recently, one of them being Whitey Besase's grandson.

SMB

Here's a 1965 chart of CL I made that lists him.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2864

[Stroccos]

I actually just came across Mollica's role in Detroit's Toledo crew affairs. He was out of Mansfield, OHIO. I didn't completely realize his importance until a couple of new sources popped up recently, one of them being Whitey Besase's grandson.

SMB

Here's a 1965 chart of CL I made that lists him.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2864

we based Mollicas cleveland afflication on marryferral documents , I believe Mansfield was licavoli gang territory in the 30's , it wouldn't be surprising he was working with the Toledo/ Detroit guys

i often wondered if delsanter was made in Detroit and transfered back to cleveland if in fact he was made after the farah hit in the early 60's

[Angelo Santino]

Yes. There's always been some confusion there. It's a very strange occurrence for one Family to go into another state and Family's territory. But with the symbiotic relationship it implies it was an agreed upon decision.

Didn't Bompensiero claim there was once an autonomous Toledo Family?

[PolackTony]

Yes. There's always been some confusion there. It's a very strange occurrence for one Family to go into another state and Family's territory. But with the symbiotic relationship it implies it was an agreed upon decision.

Didn't Bompensiero claim there was once an autonomous Toledo Family?

He claimed there was a Toledo family during or prior to Prohibition? My limited understanding (mostly thanks to Scott B) is that the Licavolis took over Toledo ~1931. Never really heard anything about what was happening there before that time.

[Frank]

Also didnt Fratianno say that Youngstown had their own Family?

[Angelo Santino]

Yes. There's always been some confusion there. It's a very strange occurrence for one Family to go into another state and Family's territory. But with the symbiotic relationship it implies it was an agreed upon decision.

Didn't Bompensiero claim there was once an autonomous Toledo Family?

He claimed there was a Toledo family during or prior to Prohibition? My limited understanding (mostly thanks to Scott B) is that the Licavolis took over Toledo ~1931. Never really heard anything about what was happening there before that time.

Yeah, I don't know. B. and I were talking about it and... Bompensiero's got a pretty good track record... Licavoli was in Canada prior to being in Toledo, I didn't get the sense he was there for more then 2, 3, maybe 5 years. It needs further study.