Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

[scott22]

We obviously can go in circles on this. Those charts say what they say and the indictments list what they list.

Over the last 15 years, I have personally done extensive interviews with the following individuals re. the historical structure of the Tocco-Zerilli crime family:

Anthony "Tony Z" Zerilli (wrote manuscript for his book)
Dominick "Uncle Dom" Bommarito
Frank "The Bomb" Bommarito
Nove Tocco
Allen "The General" Hilf

Dozens of retired US Attys, Michigan State Policemen, FBI & DEA agents who worked OC in Detroit spanning the 1950s up until 2018.

Is this all anecdotal? I guess you could make that argument. It is what it is. Believe what you want to believe.

SMB

[Frank]

Im not sure this fits in, Stango said something like the consigliere of all consiglieres in describing a past member of stature. I always wondered what he meant.

[Pogo The Clown]

It is it not believing what I want to believe. It is going by what the available evidence says.


Pogo

[scott22]

Too chez, sir!

But available to who? I obviously have access and evidence available to me that most don't, no?

SMB

[Pogo The Clown]

I don't know. Maybe you and maybe you don't. But as I've said before what the evidence says and what you say it says are often two very different things.


Pogo

[Eline2015]

Tony Tocco was indicted as a capo in '96 cause he was a capo & Polizzi was consigliere. I can't speak to why Polizzi wasn't listed in the GAMETAX indictment as consigliere, but he was and had been for 15 years. Jack Tocco shelved Polizzi right after the bust because Polizzi's son and Tocco's godson Angelo Polizzi flipped and bumped up his brother Tony to the consigliere post. Tony Giacalone wasn't identified as street boss in GAMETAX either, but he'd been the street boss since 1960. Tony Jack was just identified as a capo, yet was clearly quite a bit more.

Jack demoted Tony Z in '02. I wouldn't necessary frame Jack having "Uncle Dom" Bommarito and "Joe Hooks" Mirabile (brother-in-laws by the way) step away from their administrative jobs in '13/'14 as a "shelving" or demotion. Jack was letting Jackie & Tony Lop structure things for the future the way they wanted. Dom & Joe knew they were just "place holders" when Jack gave them the positions. This wasn't a secret.

"Emeritus" was created for Black Bill Tocco. The rules in Detroit LCN have always been looser and non traditional, more akin to The Outfit than The Five Families. Pete Licavoli was only a capo until '68 (when he became a ceremonial underboss), but he was a "founding father" & had more power & say-so than a capo in the traditional sense. Tony Ruggirello and Jimmy Q are the best examples of that in the Tocco regime. Jackie leaned on Tony Ruggirello in a non-official capacity in the first few years of his reign.

SMB

Ok. You say, that Licavoli was a capo before 68 (probably 69, when Meli dies, but ok), but earlier you in your articles you say, that Licavoli was relocate to AZ in mid 40s, and Mike Rubino was captain of his crew (official). ( I think that Licavoli crew lineage seems like this: After Licavoli was relocate to AZ, Scarface Bommarito was taken his crew before 1957, when he became a street boss, and in 1958 he relocate to FL, and Eubino became official)
.Documents on MF also confirmed this, that Rubino in 60s was held a caporegime status. I do not want to be a bully, but this is not the first time that you change dates and contradict your previous articles

[B.]

I appreciate Scott's take and he deserves to be part of any Detroit discussion, though I respectfully question some of the interpretations. I hope this doesn't go too deep into a pure Detroit hierarchy debate, as the consiglio has gotten surprisingly little attention historically despite being in front of us the entire time. I do think Detroit is relevant to the consiglio discussion.

Couple Detroit thoughts:

- I don't see the evidence that Detroit was less traditional than most families, but the opposite. I think people have gotten the idea that the New York families are the standard for "traditional mafia" when that's mostly untrue. NYC was more traditional than Chicago, the least traditional family, but compared to heavily traditional families like Milwaukee, Tampa, Detroit, Rockford, and Pittston, NYC is something else entirely. Detroit seems to be a more successful/influential version of the other traditional families around the US. Just my take, happy to hear info that points in a different direction.

- I suspect the "consiglieri emeritus" in Detroit was a continuation of the consiglio given Detroit is described as having three "consiglieri" who helped dictate policy along with the boss and underboss earlier on. Maybe one of Scott's member sources gave a definitive statement suggesting otherwise, but it would make sense that a group of elder members without official ranks in the hierarchy who are nonetheless called "consiglieri" would be a continuation of their council/consiglio rather than something brand new introduced in later generations.

--

More thoughts on the consiglio:

- Why has the consiglio remained in total obscurity given we have reputable sources who refer to it, sometimes under different names, but often using the council / consiglio name and with near-identical descriptions? Valachi clearly explained it in detail during his testimony and it doesn't get much more mainstream than that as far as mafia lore goes.

- The consiglio is not a revolutionary concept. That the mafia traditionally had a council of leaders and senior members in each family who voted on decisions and helped administer the family as a council is not surprising, though I still wonder why it hasn't been discussed in most FBI descriptions of the organization given they had intel on it. The consiglio appears to have been more about policy and procedure, with little to do with criminal affairs, so it may have been overlooked given it didn't function within the parameters of a "crime family". The FBI is a law enforcement agency, so their definitions and descriptions are sometimes through that lens.

- The early existence of the Grand Council / Consiglio Supremo who worked with the capo dei capi shows that even the Commission was not the revolutionary idea it is made out to be. In fact, Joe Bonanno referred to the chairman/secretary of the Commission as the "capo consigliere" (head councilor), which implies he considered the Commission members to be a council (consiglio). And that's exactly what they were when you strip away the dramatic "Commission" name, but the point is that the Commission was a continuation of the Consiglio Supremo without the capo dei capi presiding over it. The Consiglio Supremo didn't end in 1915 and in 1931 the Commission appeared: the two ran right into each other and the Commission was apparently created as the Consiglio Supremo was dissolved.

- As families became Americanized and closer to "crime families", it makes sense why the consiglio faded away, or in many of the small traditional families, the entire family faded. I'm not aware of any of the post-1970s cooperators referring to anything like a consiglio within their organizations. Families shifted toward "ruling panels" and "committees" and though this was mostly because of incarceration, it still draws parallels to the earlier councils. It'd be a ridiculous stretch to say bosses from the 1990s who set up ruling panels were inspired by the "consiglio", as it's such an intuitive idea and inevitably there will be panels / committees based on circumstance. However, this was not true for the earlier consiglio / council, which we have learned was a traditional part of the organization.

- Why didn't Joe or Bill Bonanno mention this? Maybe they had too much ground to cover in their books and the consiglio wasn't worth mentioning. Or Carmine Lombardozzi, who had been a captain in the 1950s and attended Apalachin? If Valachi is right that every NYC family had a consiglio, you'd think other NYC sources mentioned it. We haven't seen all of the info from most of these cooperators, like we have from Scarpa (and still there are more reports from him not publicly available), so maybe as more files surface we may see something.

--

Now for the big question:

- Valachi said there were six consiglieri on the consiglio for each family in addition to the boss, who made seven. We struggle sometimes to even nail the succession of boss/underboss/consigliere down for the most well-known families. Even if underboss, consigliere, and captains made up the remaining spots, who were the other consiglio members for each of the five families? We're lucky if we can even speculate.

- We might have to take another look at members who were misidentified as administration members or specifically consiglieri during the pre-1960s NYC mafia. Carmine Galante was called both underboss and consigliere in a couple of places. Giuseppe SanFilippo was called a "consigliere of power" in the Gambino family. We could go crazy assuming every vague or mistaken reference to a rank refers to this, but we may also see something we wouldn't have noticed before.

[chin_gigante]

Reading this thread, my mind went back to something Joseph Valachi testified about. To me, anyway, it reads like the five New York families and the DeCavalcantes shared a council of consiglieri that was separate from the Commission.

Wow, incredible find. He even calls it the consiglio.

I take back what I said about no evidence of this existing in NYC, but it's especially relevant as it still existed in the 1930s and Valachi doesn't say anything to indicate it stopped existing at the time of his cooperation. He must be wrong about Luciano creating it as we know from other sources it existed in Sicily and the early US. Valachi also believed Maranzano created the positions of underboss, consigliere, and capodecina. I believe these mistakes are because Valachi was inducted during wartime and was reporting direct to Maranzano; he likely didn't have the existing structure and procedures properly explained to him until after the war and may have assumed these structures and processes were new.

It's also relevant because he says it numbered seven men, as they needed an uneven vote. While it tends to be five consiglieri in the smaller families, maybe the size of the NYC families resulted in a slightly bigger consiglio.

The reference to the DeCavalcante family stands out, too. I don't remember anything on the DeCavalcante tapes to indicate they had an active consiglio, but as great as those tapes were, they don't necessarily give us the full picture. It should be noted they had two underbosses at the time... not sure how that would play into a consiglio unless there was some kind of language discrepancy (i.e. council members / consiglieri were called "underbosses" in that family) but that seems unlikely.

I agree, this raises some interesting questions. If New York and New Jersey had a shared consiglio then the question arises about who the DeCavalcante representative would be given that there hasn't been any evidence to suggest they appointed a consigliere at that time. It also raises the question of who the Genovese consigliere would be during Frank Costello's time as boss - whether it was Sandino Pandolfo or someone else (or, like the DeCavalcantes, if Costello did not appoint a consigliere did he send somebody of another rank to serve on the council?)

I also found this file from July 1964 in which Rocco Scafidi describes Ignazio Denaro and Joseph Rugnetta as both being underbosses of the Philadelphia family (Denaro as underboss of the Sicilians and Rugnetta as underboss of the Calabrians). He then describes the consigliere position as being held not by one individual but, rather, shared by three: Denaro, Rugnetta and Dominick Oliveto.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 1&tab=page

--------

Also, not to risk derailing the thread more, but I just feel I have to go on record to echo Chris' remarks that I very much value Scott as a source and I really appreciate his presence on the board. As I don't tend to venture outside of Philadelphia for research much (apart from the occasional dabble in New York) I can't comment on everything, but I have to point out, on the subject of Philadelphia, Scott has reported on some significant things quite early on that have ended up proving to be correct (i.e., being the first to report on Mike Lancellotti's elevated position, appearing to be correct again on Borgesi stepping up...) so he deserves credit where it's due.
Scott, you've always been very courteous and helpful whenever I have any questions for you and it's been a pleasure interacting with you on here.

[sdeitche]

For what it's worth Scott's sources and info regarding Detoit are coming right from emmebrs and law enforcement. Not sure how much more reliable evidence you need than that.

[sdeitche]

So, I'll throw this out there in regards to Tampa, I meniotned it briefly on the other thread. With the council concept being a Sicilian concept, are there any other cities, other than Tampa, where non-Italians were on it? In Tampa, Joe "Baby Joe" Diez was a member of their advisory council.

[Villain]

So, I'll throw this out there in regards to Tampa, I meniotned it briefly on the other thread. With the council concept being a Sicilian concept, are there any other cities, other than Tampa, where non-Italians were on it? In Tampa, Joe "Baby Joe" Diez was a member of their advisory council.

Chicago had non-Italian advisors close to the boss and underboss...if that means anything to you lol

[CornerBoy]

Scott has been interviewing higher ups and former Feds, strike force guys etc. he's a good writer and has shared with us for yrs. You need to see some bullshit govt document to make you believe it?

[Pogo The Clown]

Because as I've said what the Feds say and what he says are often very different things. Just off the top of my head.


-The Feds publicly say in 2007 that Chicago is down to 30 members. In 2010 Scott says they have 60-80 members. Who should I go with?


-In 1996 the Feds say Detroit has 29 members. In the late 2000s, after a large number have died, Scott claims they have 50-60 members. Who should I go with?


-In 2011 LE claims that the Providence faction is decimated with only 1 or 2 active members and that the leadership is now in Boston. A few years later Scott claims that the UnderBoss, Consigliere and 2 Capos are in Providence. Who should I go with?


-Sticking with Providence Scott claims that Anthony Parillo is the longtime Conisgliere and "next in line to be syndicate Don". LE doesn't include Parillo in their list of members residing in Rhode Island and he is then indicted as an Associate. Who should I go with?


-In 1987 the Feds had the KC family as a Boss and 2 Capos. They no longer recognize a family there by the 2000s. In 2015 Scott claims the family is still around with an active Boss, UnderBoss, a top advisor serving the role of Consigliere and 3 Capos. Who should I go with?


-Back to Detroit. In 1984, 1987 and 1990 the Feds list Mike Poliizi as a Capo and claim there is no Consigliere. They also reaffirm it in the 1996 indictment.

Although the Detroit LCN's "street tax" and resulting violence was the cornerstone of this case, their control of the Alladin and Edgewater Casinos in Nevada during the 1970s was also included in the RICO indictments of March 13, 1996. On that date, a Michigan Federal Grand Jury charged the entire hierarchy of the Detroit LCN family, except one capo, with 25 counts of racketeering. The greatest significance of this indictment is the fact that the Detroit LCN family was indicted as a racketeering enterprise.

No Conisgliere was indicted in that case. Scott says Polizzi was Consigliere during all this time. Who should I go with?


Again just some examples of how what Scott claims often contradicts the publically available evidence. Again it is not what I say vs. what Scott says.


Pogo

[scott22]

I've always said Mike Rubino was Pete Licavoli's acting capo from when he left Det. for AZ until Rubino got locked up in '70. We weren't discussing "acting" roles.

"Joe Scarface" Bommarito was street boss (w/ help from "Machine Gun Pete" Corrado) from the 1930s until he retired to FLA with illness in the late 1950s and Joe Z gave the spot to Tony Jack.

SMB

[scott22]

If I've "contradicted" myself in my reporting, it's because new information came to light.

Again, believe what you want to believe. I stand by my reporting. This gets exhausting....lol.

book manuscripts I've written:

Phil Leonetti
Tony Zerilli
Frank Salemme
Ralph Natale


SMB