Los Angeles odds & ends

[B.]

I don't see much evidence that Fratianno was officially recognized by Chicago unless the issue was straightened out after 1968, or they were able to reach out to Giancana. Fratianno was operating out of Sacramento and the Bay Area so his affiliation would have been less controversial there "out of orbit" than if he were living in LA trying to force the issue.

Going with the info supplied to the FBI by Bompensiero, we know Fratianno's story was confirmed by John Roselli in a meeting between Licata and Roselli. It was however rejected by Licata and the post-Giancana Chicago leadership on the grounds that Fratianno's captain and fellow decina soldiers were never consulted, plus Chicago's claim that they had not been informed.

Another important angle is that in 1968, Roselli, Bompensiero, and Fratianno were making another attempt to take over the LA family. Roselli was going to contact Chicago for support (believed to be Phil Alderisio), Bompensiero would contact Santo Trafficante (he was close to Tampa), while Fratianno would reach out to another family (believed to be Cleveland).

Here is more info on that:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4119

[Villain]

Yes, i forgot to mention or ask regarding the years and as you already said, it is possible that the connection between Giancana and Fratianno was somehow kept. I think that the main problem for Fratianno in 1968 was Giancanas 4-year old demotion and absence, and also Rosellis fast downfall. The Outfits top hierarchy at the time was formed by Ricca, Accardo, Cerone, Buccieri, LaPorte, Prio, Alderisio and Alex.

In addition, whoever is interested, heres some info on Fratiannos Chicago connections from the early 50s....

David Zatz was as "syndicate front" for Lenny Patrick and Dave Yaras and their handbook operations. Zatz's headquarters was a cigar stand in the State of Illinois office building at 160 W. La Salle Street from 1946 until 1950.

One day news reporters found out that horse bets were placed at his spot, and so Zatz lost his state lease but later showed up at Town Hall police district and operated many other handbook and gambling operations.

This guy had contacts with numerous gambling suckers so he was very good for business and brought in a lot of cash, but Zatz also had business deals with some mobsters from the west coast, especially Los Angeles. His prime contacts were Jimmy “The Weasel” Fratianno, a member of the Los Angeles crime family, and infamous gangster Mickey Cohen, but the problem was that these two guys allegedly came from two separate and warring factions at the time.

Cohen was a stubborn mobster who by the early 1950s made a lot of guys angry and became a target of many unsuccessful assassinations, allegedly orchastrated by the local Cosa Nostra organization in which Fratianno belong to at the time.

According to reports, in January 1952 rumours were that Zatz was the Chicago guy in Los Angeles to make a deal with Cohen and also to clear things up between him and the LA crime family.

From detective reports, during his stay in Los Angeles, Zatz was making phone calls to Patrick and Yaras in Chicago to explain the situation. When he came back to Chicago, Zatz started having financial troubles and told his Outfit associates that he wants to spread his gambling operations in different areas and as a matter of fact, theres one report regarding Zatz's attempt to move one of his former gambling spots from near Division and Clark St, to a new location which was already operated by another Outfit associate.

Thats when the clouds of suspicion apperaed since the Outfit started thinking that Zatz was holding out from their share of his profits. According to Zatz himself, he allegedly told some people that Fratianno was behind the scheme and he was the one who was allegedly holding out.

In April 1952, Zatz was visited by Fratianno in Chicago to talk about the problem but according to a surveillance report, their conversation transformed into a violent quarrel.

The main problem for Zatz was that Fratianno was a member of the Mafia and on top of that, Zatz's boss back in Chicago, Dave Yaras wasnt very much happy with the whole outcome and allegedly asked for his life.

On May 5th, 1952 Lenny Patrick called Zatz and arranged to meet him and Yaras, ostensibly to sell him some rare jewelry. Zatz arrived with his car at Orchard st. and Diversey pkwy to pick up Patrick and Yaras, and once they got into his car, Yaras pulled out a gun and shot Zatz once in the abdomen, once near the heart and once in the left elbow. After that they took him out and placed him in the trunk of his car. That was the end of David Zatz.


Before switching crews and going under Alex, previously or during those days Patrick and Yaras belonged to the Battaglia/Alserisio group, so maybe thats when the so-called Fratianno/Alderisio connection began....

[Costigan]

That's great how Chris laid everything out chronologically. As far as the Chicago transfer, he obviously was transferred, but it wasn't handled right, as Licata or DeSimone were never properly brought into the picture. Wow. Maybe Chicago was scamming the scammer.
As far as Jimmy getting into hot water with Brooklier/Sciortino after they were released from prison, I don't get the beef. He only did what they asked him to do. He was an ACTING part of the LA administration, be it acting boss, or acting underboss, and he handled himself that way. I don't see were he misrepresented himself. He just did everything with such flash, meeting with so many other bosses, especially in New York. Like Chris said, Brooklier may have done it on purpose, knowing Jimmy would run wild with it.
Delsanter's comments to Jimmy about taking a vote to get the boss position in LA sort of reminded me off Jerry Lang's comments to Samy the Bull, or whoever it was that notified some of the other families about the upcoming hit on Big Paul. "What took you guys so long?" Sort of goading, sort of serious. I don't know, I guess Delsanter and Fratianno were pretty tight with each other.
Another thing that I meant to bring up, if they were going to hit Jimmy, it was broadcast in such a way that he could see it coming a mile away. 'We got Frank, and there's more coming", etc, etc, etc. No finesse.
Let me just add that I appreciate the opinions of all you guys. Lots of good information on here.

[Villain]

Maybe Chicago was scamming the scammer.

I think thats the real answer.....they did similar stuff with Greenbaum when they caught him stealing from the Vegas scheme that involved a lot of families at the time...so they also took their share from Greenbaums steal and in the end they killed him

[B.]

Never heard of formal transfers being used as some kind of nefarious scheme to "scam" the would-be transferee. Any other examples of that? We're talking about the formal transfer of a mafia member from one family to another, not families playing ping pong with an associate in a financial operation.

Both Fratianno and Roselli told Licata the same story. Fratianno's transfer was arranged through his friend/sponsor Roselli and approved by Giancana and Desimone. What would Roselli have to gain by facilitating a fake transfer for Fratianno to Chicago? Roselli had already transferred back to Chicago, their friend Bompensiero was attempting his own transfer to Chicago, and Charlie Battaglia transferred to the Bonannos, all in response to Frank Desimone's poor leadership. It was a trend among the anti-Desimone faction of the LA family.

Fratianno thought he was invited to a party and when he arrived it turned out his name wasn't on the guest list. The person who invited him wasn't available to comment and the party's hosts didn't feel like letting him in. Was it a Machiavellian plot to embarrass Fratianno... or just indifference?

I lean toward the simplest explanation, the one explained by the member sources themselves. Fratianno arranged to transfer out of the LA family like his friends did, but protocol wasn't properly followed and Desimone and Giancana's successors had no interest in allowing the transfer.

[Costigan]

I have no irons in the fire, just throwing out conjecture, but if everyone else transferred out just fine, why the problem with Jimmy? It's just odd. There may not be an answer that we will ever know.

[B.]

That's great how Chris laid everything out chronologically. As far as the Chicago transfer, he obviously was transferred, but it wasn't handled right, as Licata or DeSimone were never properly brought into the picture. Wow. Maybe Chicago was scamming the scammer.
As far as Jimmy getting into hot water with Brooklier/Sciortino after they were released from prison, I don't get the beef. He only did what they asked him to do. He was an ACTING part of the LA administration, be it acting boss, or acting underboss, and he handled himself that way. I don't see were he misrepresented himself.

If he was the acting underboss and he claimed to be the acting boss, he lied about his position in Cosa Nostra.

Let's say a guy is a soldier assigned direct to the administration. He has direct access to the boss, which gives him higher status than the average soldier who must report to a capodecina. Maybe he even carries messages to and from the boss. Members can contact him if they need to contact the administration.

That member starts thinking, "Hey, I'm kind of like a captain." He wouldn't be wrong. He's helping run the affairs of the family and he's sort of like middle management above other members. One day he starts telling people he's a capodecina. On a functional level he's "like" a captain and he fulfills similar duties, so what's the problem?

But the boss finds out one day and what does he do? Does he say, "Capodecina is just a word! Yes, my piccioto, go ahead and call yourself a capodecina." Probably not. He's going to say, "Why are you telling people you're a capodecina when you're a soldier? You are embarrassing me, you're embarrassing yourself, and I'm putting you on the shelf."

The boss might even feel the member is making a move against him. At the very least he loses trust in him. That's exactly how Brooklier reacted to what Fratianno did and he sent emissaries to let other families know about Fratianno's indiscretion even though it reflected poorly on Brooklier's leadership and the state of the LA family.

To us it might seem arbitrary, but the mafia administration isn't a "choose your own adventure" story.

[B.]

I have no irons in the fire, just throwing out conjecture, but if everyone else transferred out just fine, why the problem with Jimmy? It's just odd. There may not be an answer that we will ever know.

Bompensiero's transfer was blocked by the Commission rep Tommy Lucchese, so not everyone's transfer worked out.

We have a clear explanation for why Fratianno's didn't work out, too. Licata told Bompensiero that not everyone was properly informed, including Licata, the other Chicago leadership, and he specifically says Fratianno's capodecina wasn't consulted nor were his other decina members.

So we have a clear answer to the question.

[B.]

The mafia's formal rules can be hard to understand at first, but once you learn them and see the pattern, it greatly simplifies stories that would otherwise make us spin our wheels with conspiracy theories. They don't always follow the rules perfectly and members of course do manipulate them to their benefit, but much more of mafia history can be taken at face value when we consider the politics and rules.

We have a tendency to see reality through the POV of Machiavellian pop-culture gangsters, where everything has a double meaning, sub-plot, backroom agreement, and every handshake is done over a bundle of cash, but that's not the reality most of the time, especially in organizational matters. Not that these things don't happen, but when we have evidence that suggests otherwise we shouldn't ignore it just because it's more exciting to imagine an elaborate plot.

And just for a counter-example, we know there was a secret conspiracy between Bompensiero, Fratianno, and Roselli to get rid of Desimone and later Nick Licata to take over the LA family themselves. Bompensiero freely admitted this to the FBI, so why would he turn around and tell the FBI the Fratianno transfer issue was mainly the result of failed protocol? He had no dog in the race when it came to Fratianno's transfer and his account is consistent.

[Confederate]

Maybe Chicago was scamming the scammer.

I think thats the real answer.....they did similar stuff with Greenbaum when they caught him stealing from the Vegas scheme that involved a lot of families at the time...so they also took their share from Greenbaums steal and in the end they killed him

Of course it's the real answer. That's why Giancana never told anybody about it. They never wanted Fratianno in the first place. Giancana simply helped Alderisio collect his money from Jimmy the con man otherwise if Giancana really wanted Fratianno, all the right people would have known about it. There would have been no problem. Fratianno was "different" because he was viewed as a con man, the right people in Chicago didn't like or trust him and he owed Alderisio money. When all those things are in play, all bets are off for any "protocol" to be followed.

[B.]

It's understandable why the Chicago leadership failed to properly communicate Fratianno's transfer to each other. When you have a top boss, chairman, boss, underboss, four territory bosses, sixteen crew bosses, and thirty-two crew underbosses in a pear tree it's easy for things to get lost in the mail. Especially when you trust those non-Italians to do everything... how are they going to know proper transfer protocol?

Ol' Scarface never told anyone about transfers during the short months he was on the street as rappresentante officiale (he just magically became a member of the Chicago family after Masseria). You can't blame Chicago given they were no longer a mafia family as of 1931. "Transfer? What do you mean? It better come in an envelope. We're the Outfit!"

That's why you need an official consigliere to send a mass letter out to every single member letting them know your plan. That can have its downsides, though...

Fortunately on LA's end it was simple. Desimone didn't clear the transfer with Fratianno's captain and Licata says the transfer is void. Where's the 3D chess game? I thought there'd be secret envelopes of cash and front bosses somewhere in here. How disappointing.

The reality is, Joe Batters and Paul the Waiter knew the second they okayed Fratianno's transfer that they'd be answering to Jimmy in a matter of months, maybe weeks. The Outfit hierarchy would have a new leadership tier above the Man, above Chairman, even above Top Boss: the Weasel.

JFLM. Jimmy Fratianno's Life Matters. Say his name!

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Fratianno stans. I love it.

[Angelo Santino]

If you wanted a chronology of LA books-

The Last Mafioso (1950-1980)
Veangeance is Mine - Fratianno testifying, additional bg info. (1970's/80's)
The Animal in Hollywood - came up under Mike Rizzi and seen things from his perspective. (1980's)
Breakshot - Kenji Gallo (1990's- 2000's)

I'll post some excerpts later on today like I did with TLM and I might even pull Joe Bonanno's book off the shelf as he discusses Fratianno from his perspective.

[Villain]

Maybe Chicago was scamming the scammer.

I think thats the real answer.....they did similar stuff with Greenbaum when they caught him stealing from the Vegas scheme that involved a lot of families at the time...so they also took their share from Greenbaums steal and in the end they killed him

Of course it's the real answer. That's why Giancana never told anybody about it. They never wanted Fratianno in the first place. Giancana simply helped Alderisio collect his money from Jimmy the con man otherwise if Giancana really wanted Fratianno, all the right people would have known about it. There would have been no problem. Fratianno was "different" because he was viewed as a con man, the right people in Chicago didn't like or trust him and he owed Alderisio money. When all those things are in play, all bets are off for any "protocol" to be followed.

When Roselli got transfered, he was introduced to almost everyone in the Chicago family...when Morro went to Chicago back in the 1930s, he was known by every top guy...so obviously there was something wrong and quite suspicious with Fratiannos transfer

[Manhattan_]

Anyone know anything about Joseph Grosso ? He gave testimony against Mike Rizzi in the Billy Carroll shooting , he was also from NY like Rizzi - think that he just did a 30 year bid in California but why did he do so much time if he did cooperate ? No sentence reduction ?