Cleveland Crime Family

[B.]

Thanks, Bronx.

As for Milano, there are reports of him having a falling out with his successors in Cleveland. There is a report that says he began saying they didn't do right by him and show him proper respect, though it also said he was going senile. Maybe he began saying, "They never had the makings of varsity athletes."

I don't remember if it's the same source, but one of the FBI's more active informants in Cleveland was a non-member who believed the mafia could induct non-Italians and that Cleveland had inducted several Jews, including Rockman, so we can't always take these non-members' observations as insight into the organization's politics.

Like Villain says in the linked thread, the info about Milano being "Capone's man" is likely an exaggeration. The Milanos appear to have been in with the leadership of Cleveland on their own and may have had support/friendship in Chicago, though they were def not outsiders in Cleveland acting as puppets. Gentile says Milano was part of the first Commission. I don't think Milano would have been on the first Commission, or even if Gentile is mistaken, been seen as that kind of regional power, if he was a puppet boss.

Gentile talks about Paul Ricca and the Gambino family being involved in the 1936 Cleveland dispute and suggests Al Polizzi was aligned with Ricca, while Dr. Romano had been aligned with Vincent Mangano. It was typical or Commission members to get involved in other families, though... Stefano Magaddino handled the problems in Philadelphia during the late 1950s and if the wrong author got a hold of that info they might say, "Philadelphia was subservient to Buffalo and Magaddino sent his man John Simone to back cousin Angelo Bruno in taking over the family."

Which gets back to LA... almost every source claims that each boss after Dragna was incompetent and disliked by the membership. We never get accounts from the people in the organization who supported them. Piscopo said Bompensiero and Fratianno's resentment toward Desimone started because they had been demoted from their captain positions in prison. Both of them constantly plotted against the leadership and cooperated with the FBI against every mafioso they knew nationwide. Fratianno couldn't just accept being acting underboss but had to lie about being acting boss. If you were to ask the membership if they would rather have Pete Milano as boss or two treacherous rats, we might get a different story.

[Pogo The Clown]

And what about the mafia members themselves? If Dileonardo says NO was still recognized by NY as a Family in 2002 are you going to argue with him? Tell him he's a fanboy who doesn't know his own organization, is he playing the hometown or Italian card?

If Michael Franzese says there are only 9 families left are you going to argue with him? Tell him he doesn't know his own organization? Is he playing the hometown card?


Pogo

[B.]

And what about the mafia members themselves? If Dileonardo says NO was still recognized by NY as a Family in 2002 are you going to argue with him? Tell him he's a fanboy who doesn't know his own organization, is he playing the hometown or Italian card?

If Michael Franzese says there are only 9 families left are you going to argue with him? Tell him he doesn't know his own organization? Is he playing the hometown card?


Pogo

I know you're kidding, but did Franzese say there were only 9 families left when he was still on the street or was it more recently? DiLeonardo is talking about NO members meeting with the Gambinos when he was on the street in 2002. If Franzese heard 9 families in the 1980s before he cooperated and his father's crew was basically shelved it would hold more weight.

[Wiseguy]

Has someone claimed Buffalo is growing larger everyday or are they discussing information that has come out that you don't agree with. There is a difference.

You've read the same posts I have. Their thinking is Buffalo has "reorganized," "regrouped," etc. As well as now has over 30 members when they didn't even have that many back in 2006, much less now.

It does when your theory requires us to discount connections and affiliations because they don't lead to where you want them. You have laid out a criteria for what constitutes a family, Buffalo met that 100%, but then you moved the goal post by saying the sources aren't credible. You're not in any position shoot down the RCMP, you can have lingering doubts but to say they made the entire thing up is insulting and arrogant.

Does Buffalo have a formal hierarchical structure? They have a boss that is at least mostly retired. And a newly-made underboss. We had one captain identified Canada but none recently in Buffalo. And how much of an organization can you have when you have a dozen or so old members? The titles become almost meaningless.

Also, the activity (or lack thereof). We saw sporadic cases (involving individuals more than an organization) before the Violi bust. And that's what we've seen afterward as well. Nothing that really shows a formally structured, cohesive organization.

I swear sometimes you guys forget we're talking about organized crime.

And what about the mafia members themselves? If Dileonardo says NO was still recognized by NY as a Family in 2002 are you going to argue with him? Tell him he's a fanboy who doesn't know his own organization, is he playing the hometown or Italian card?

Did he say that or am I supposed to answer a hypothetical?

New York still recognizing New Orleans be that big of deal to me if the context was understood, i.e. what was actually left of New Orleans by then and that it was largely a formality.

Second, no one here is saying there's 20 families, absolutely no one. When information surfaces to suggest certain groups may still be recognized, we investigate. I think everyone agreed that Buffalo was dead, then info came out to suggest perhaps it wasn't and we adapted our way of thinking. Back when Montagna was deported to Canada I argued he was a 'man without a family,' once information came out to suggest that he was involved I didn't start claiming everyone wants Montagna to be somebody he's not, I swallowed my pride (actually no, you need an ego to have pride) and admitted I was wrong. Won't be the last time it happens either.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be saying that anywhere there is still living members, no matter the level of organization or activity (my criteria, according to you), they are still a family; especially if recognized by other Mafia families. If that's the case, there are still around 20 families in the U.S. today if some family elsewhere recognizes them.

Your theory is supported by the feds, mine by the members themselves. These disciplines focus on different elements that compliment each other when weighed together, like a pivot. To go entirely by one and ignore the other (on either side) one risks putting themselves at a disadvantage. I understand the viability argument agree with it more often than not, I implore you to try and attempt the same with other disciplines.

I understand what you're saying but, once again, it's largely a different argument than the one that keeps popping up. The debate that never dies does deal largely with organization and activity. Most are debating over Argument A and you you seem to be interjecting Argument B.

And what about the mafia members themselves? If Dileonardo says NO was still recognized by NY as a Family in 2002 are you going to argue with him? Tell him he's a fanboy who doesn't know his own organization, is he playing the hometown or Italian card?

If Michael Franzese says there are only 9 families left are you going to argue with him? Tell him he doesn't know his own organization? Is he playing the hometown card?


Pogo

I know you're kidding, but did Franzese say there were only 9 families left when he was still on the street or was it more recently? DiLeonardo is talking about NO members meeting with the Gambinos when he was on the street in 2002. If Franzese heard 9 families in the 1980s before he cooperated and his father's crew was basically shelved it would hold more weight.

I don't think Pogo is kidding. And what Franzese does hold weight when his number matches the same number for the FBI.

What's easier to believe? That there are 9 families left in 2020 or that there was really anything left to recognize in New Orleans in 2002?

[Pogo The Clown]

My post was obviously tongue in cheek but the point still stands.


For every DiLeonardo who would consider NO circa 2002 a family I'll raise you a Franzese, Lonardo, Frattiano and Natale who wouldn't consider a few geezers not doing anything to be a family. The later were all made in different families during different eras so represent a cross section of view points. I'd wager their view is the more prevailing view among actual mobsters.


More recently we have Gene Borello (not a member but knee deep in the life who likely would have gotten made if he hadn't gone to prison) saying that the Colombos "were barely a family". Now obviously he was exaggerating but I'll bet he is simply echoing the prevailing perception of the members and associates he was around on the street. I don't think he would be alone in that view. If we somehow were able to read the minds of the average wiseguy on the streets of NY, NJ and Philly I don't they would would consider a few old retired members in KC, LA, Cleveland or Buffalo a family like they think of themselves as a family.


Pogo

[B.]

I don't think Pogo is kidding. And what Franzese does hold weight when his number matches the same number for the FBI.

What's easier to believe? That there are 9 families left in 2020 or that there was really anything left to recognize in New Orleans in 2002?

Franzese was labeled a rat by Carmine Persico by the early 1990s and a murder contract was placed on his head, as reported by Scarpa. They attempted to break up his father's decina as a punishment for Michael's actions but because the crew was on Long Island and isolated from the family they weren't able to do much about it, meaning the group was more or less shelved, then the war broke out.

Franzese out of the loop by the early 1990s at the latest. I know he has had contact with his father in recent years, though I would question whether his father was telling him, "You know what, rat boy? There are only 9 families left."

Franzese's number of families matches the FBI's number because he got it from the FBI. He isn't an insider on the mafia of the past 30 years and unless he says he received this number in the 1980s we can figure he read about it in the same place we all did.

[scagghiuni]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be saying that anywhere there is still living members, no matter the level of organization or activity (my criteria, according to you), they are still a family; especially if recognized by other Mafia families. If that's the case, there are still around 20 families in the U.S. today if some family elsewhere recognizes them.

the italian dia consider viable also very small families (5-10 made members) if other families recognize them, for this reason there are 78 families in the province of palermo only

[Angelo Santino]

And what about the mafia members themselves? If Dileonardo says NO was still recognized by NY as a Family in 2002 are you going to argue with him? Tell him he's a fanboy who doesn't know his own organization, is he playing the hometown or Italian card?

If Michael Franzese says there are only 9 families left are you going to argue with him? Tell him he doesn't know his own organization? Is he playing the hometown card?


Pogo

Well that's simple and you already know this or should. He became an informant in 1988 an was cut off from the organization after that point. He still kept in touch with his father but who knows to what extent they still spoke about current mafia world events. After being off the street for 40 years he likely keeps up to date with current events the same way we do. You want me to try and ask him? Worst he can do is tell me to go find God.

[B.]

Joe Colombo's description of New Orleans in 1968 is probably how anyone else in the mafia would describe a family with five members left, then or now. They are a family with a handful of members who are at risk of dying out if they don't induct new members. If a family of that size doesn't name a boss or acting boss or maintain communication with other families, I'd agree they may have completely thrown in the towel but in most cases we can't definitively know if someone, even among a group of five, has taken on a title and decided to bring in a couple new candidates.

We may not be impressed by them, but that is a mafia family. Pentito Leonardo Messina said that new Cosa Nostra families can be created with ten members. Angelo Bruno joked on tape about how tiny the families could be in Sicilian towns. That's not the US, but it is the same organization with the same rules, same recognition.

In most cases it's not a matter of if, but when they go defunct. However, that "when" is not something we can definitively say from the outside without member sources. The FBI claimed Buffalo was done (which might have referred primarily to their criminal operations), then it came out that Buffalo was still a family inducting and promoting members and maintaining ties to NYC mafia families, with some connection to violent mafia activities in Ontario.

Smoke doesn't come out of a chimney notifying the world that a family is officially defunct. The FBI's allocation of resources in response to criminal activity doesn't necessarily work that way, either, and I don't believe they've explained their process for determining "active" mafia families on press releases. They haven't explained the formula for their membership estimates on press releases for that matter. For example, the NYC membership estimates in their press releases contrast with DiLeonardo and the Bonanno family leadership giving info that suggests they stay close to their cap limits, which are larger than the FBI's estimates.

[Angelo Santino]

Has someone claimed Buffalo is growing larger everyday or are they discussing information that has come out that you don't agree with. There is a difference.

You've read the same posts I have. Their thinking is Buffalo has "reorganized," "regrouped," etc. As well as now has over 30 members when they didn't even have that many back in 2006, much less now.

No one said over 30 members, they said 30 members because that's what Violi was recorded saying. For the 2019 case to have happened they were either always there or were reconstituted, either way they're there in 2020. However, if it comes out that Violi was only playing once Todaro sues him for slander and proves he's completely innocent I'll admit the entire story was inflated.

Does Buffalo have a formal hierarchical structure?

According to their own underboss they do.

They have a boss that is at least mostly retired. And a newly-made underboss. We had one captain identified Canada but none recently in Buffalo. And how much of an organization can you have when you have a dozen or so old members? The titles become almost meaningless.

Who are we as observers to make that declaration?

Also, the activity (or lack thereof). We saw sporadic cases (involving individuals more than an organization) before the Violi bust. And that's what we've seen afterward as well. Nothing that really shows a formally structured, cohesive organization.

They're giving each other ranks to punk us?

I swear sometimes you guys forget we're talking about organized crime.

And I swear sometimes you forget that we're talking about a secret society.

Did he say that or am I supposed to answer a hypothetical?

He did, as of 2002 the Gambino Family recognized New Orleans as their own active thing. He did say he doubts there's a structure or very many members. So they would fall outside of what you consider viable. You would not recognize them but the Gambino family does. You tell me who opinion I should weigh more?

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be saying that anywhere there is still living members, no matter the level of organization or activity (my criteria, according to you), they are still a family; especially if recognized by other Mafia families. If that's the case, there are still around 20 families in the U.S. today if some family elsewhere recognizes them.

Close, I'm saying if there are still members who want the title of boss that NY isn't going to argue with them and will recognize and network with them. This does not imply there are secret bosses all over the country but when something like Buffalo surfaces I'd be inclined to move the suspected estimated number from 9 to 10, not 20.

I understand what you're saying but, once again, it's largely a different argument than the one that keeps popping up. The debate that never dies does deal largely with organization and activity. Most are debating over Argument A and you you seem to be interjecting Argument B.

You're saying it's dead because their hierarchy or level of organization doesn't fit what you'd define as viable. I'm saying it doesn't matter what we as forum geeks believe in the face of closely sourced evidence which contradicts us.

The thing of it is, I agree with you guys and the viability argument most of the time. Let's say someone came in and inquired about Buffalo, my response wouldn't be: "They are just as active as ever. Under Joe Todaro he's beefed up the family to 30 members and counting and is making money not headlines like a true gangster. His territory now extends from Hamilton to Florida." No, instead I'd say: "Since the 1990's the family appeared to be on its last legs, the FBI stopped listed it as an existing group, then in 2018 Violi was picked on wiretaps stating x, y, z which could indicate it's still active. We need to wait for more information but there's some very interesting links with the Bonannos and Montreal." The moment anyone were to say Joe Todaro is a criminal genius who rebuilt the family I'd be on your side asking for sources. I'm open to speculation that this happened, but I'm not about to say it's a fact without sources. This forum, in part to you guys, has a very high bar. Like I previously said, you guys are fighting a battle in the war you've already won.

Thanks for this. Do you box? You'd be a good sparring partner.

[Confederate]

Pentito Leonardo Messina said that new Cosa Nostra families can be created with ten members. Angelo Bruno joked on tape about how tiny the families could be in Sicilian towns. That's not the US, but it is the same organization with the same rules, same recognition.

The American LCN & the Sicilian Mafia are absolutely "not" the same organization.

[NothingNew44]

I am cautious about the west coast because the only real source we have is Fratianno and his opinions influenced Craig Fiato and Kenji Gallo who continued the narrative. All of them paint Milano as the real docile don. If Tommy Gambino was under since at least 2001, that jives with the time Milano lost the sit to DiLeonardo and that may have been his response to that. Having Gambino would have likely strengthened the relationship and Milano's ability to get better deals with NY. From a functional perspective, an underboss wasn't necessary so it had to have served some political purpose.

Pete Milano and Tommy Gambino have similar stories. They were both sons of highly regarded mafia members from other areas who came to LA and joined a family that had limited underworld opportunities long before either of them arrived. Neither of them brought an impressive reputation of their own with them.

- Milano was from Cleveland, whose organization was arguably in worse shape than LA. Even if he stayed in touch with "Joe Loose" to keep the Cleveland->LA pipeline hot, what could the two of them cook up?

- Gambino is a different story. In the last ten years we've found out that his uncle is a boss in Palermo, his father Rosario is still active with the Sicilian mafia, and his relatives and childhood friends are the ruling faction of the Gambino family in NYC. In the past year there have been three cases showing increasingly strong ties between the US and Sicilian mafia, one of these cases involving Gambino's immediate relatives and another that made reference to putting Sicilian mafia slot machines in California.

This doesn't mean Tommy Gambino is suddenly seen as a tough gangster and cowering shop owners are dropping off envelopes for him in LA, but if anyone is going to be able to do something with his "union card" on the west coast, it is someone with Tommy Gambino's connections to prominent mafia groups. He wanted mafia membership even though his father and relatives were all serving long prison sentences and he accepted a promotion to underboss. It's not as if he was scared to turn down Pete Milano's offer of promotion.

Why would Milano promote Gambino to underboss? Many of these guys want to keep their organizations alive if they can. It's not illegal to be a member of the mafia and induct/promote members like it is in Sicily, where even mafia association is a serious crime. Unless they lose interest, turn against the mafia, or truly have no candidates, I don't see what the incentive is not to induct members and maintain connections when possible (and it's not always possible).

Milano was born into the mafia, as was Tommy Gambino, and was willing to be a mafia boss at a time where it gave him little material benefit. As DiLeonardo's story shows, Milano still wanted to play the role even in the mid-1990s. Same thing for Joe Todaro today, who like Milano has been surrounded by the mafia his entire life. He has Goodfellas quotes on his delivery driver's hats. It might not be what it was, but for these guys being in the mafia is not like a goth phase they went through as teenagers that they now laugh at. It's their identity and even if they're not killing people and counting stacks of syndicate cash, the organization is who they are.

If Milano wanted to give the organization a chance at surviving in some form, Gambino was the well-connected choice. The LA family has always depended on members with ties to other cities. The Dragnas with the Luccheses, Licata and Brooklier with Detroit, Milano with Cleveland, Tommy Gambino with the NYC Gambinos and Sicily. If Milano had an interest in the LA family staying alive even another five years, it makes sense why he'd point to Gambino even if there's very little to be done in LA. Except, you know, induct Canadian real estate agents who get murdered in an Ontario mob war.

--

If I wrote a movie about the LA family, I would include a scene showing Pete Milano on his deathbed:

Milano: Massino, come here... I am going to make you the new boss. You must remember one thing... to be a successful boss.... Wiseguy must not believe we exist. Wiseguy must not believe... it is even possible... do you understand?!
Gambino: Zu Pietro, don't speak. You must rest.
Milano: I am not long for this world... and I must pay God for my sins. Massino... you will be a good boss. Just remember... Wiseguy...

Cue Tommy Gambino leaving the hospital and immediately going to Disneyland where he uses a payphone inside of the park to call Sicilian mafia members. Sicilian mafia hitmen fly to LA and on Gambino's orders they begin participating in violent mafia warfare in Hamilton, Ontario. A montage of the violence is shown.

Wiseguy is then shown turning on his computer and reading news about the Los Angeles family's involvement in the Ontario mob war. He screams, "It is not possible!" as Tommy Gambino's face is superimposed on the screen. Gambino's mouth turns into an evil grin and the scene fades to black.

The movie wins an Oscar.

Outstanding

[Pogo The Clown]

Franzese out of the loop by the early 1990s at the latest. I know he has had contact with his father in recent years, though I would question whether his father was telling him, "You know what, rat boy? There are only 9 families left."

Franzese's number of families matches the FBI's number because he got it from the FBI. He isn't an insider on the mafia of the past 30 years and unless he says he received this number in the 1980s we can figure he read about it in the same place we all did.

He became an informant in 1988 an was cut off from the organization after that point. He still kept in touch with his father but who knows to what extent they still spoke about current events. After being off the street for 40 years he likely keeps up to date with current events the same way we do. You want me to try and ask him? Worst he can do is tell me to go find God.

That is not really the point though. You guys are arguing that families exist until they officially disband and that any city that has a recognized LCN member constitutes a family. Well obviously Franzese didn't subscribe to that notion and he as a a high ranking member with a high ranking father as a member. Same with Angelo Lonardo. Lonardo could have easily answered the senators question that "yes the LCN family is still in Clevleand" but he didn't. He very clearly stated that there was no family there despite knowing there were still a dozen living members, some with titles and some with contacts to NY.


Pogo

[B.]

We don't have a lot to go off of as far as precedent goes for dissolving families or forming them.

Dissolving Families

- Bill Bonanno told us Birmingham asked to be disbanded and were placed under an NYC boss.
- We have two or three sources who have mentioned that Newark was disbanded and the members re-assigned to NYC families.
- The other NYC families considered breaking both the Bonanno and Colombo families up and re-assigning them to the other families.
- Magaddino said the Gambino family almost split into two separate families after Anastasia died and they placed Carlo in charge to stop that.

Other than that, these days we just assume US families get so small, non-criminal, and elderly that they stop being mafia families. We don't have information on whether they pass word along to other families, like Birmingham, or if nobody cares on either end. Some of the families no doubt are gone. We don't have the info on exactly how this happens, or doesn't happen, and we can't say positively how it works.

Forming Families

We have even less on how families are formed, but we know it requires the recognition of other mafia families and that it happens extremely rarely and is not done arbitrarily.

- Leonardo Messina said a family needs ten members to be formed in Sicily. This was likely true in the early US as well.
- Stefano LaTorre's sons told the FBI that LaTorre came to the US in the early 1900s, invited his mafiosi paesans/relatives, and they formed the Pittston family.
- Families required recognition from the capo dei capi in the pre-1931 mafia.
- Rochester and Tucson attempted to become their own families and were never recognized by the Commission.
- The Gallos tried to break off and form a new family, allegedly even making members, and were not recognized.

Sicilian Roots / Recognition

Sicily is important to the discussion even though the American and Sicilian mafia are not perfect mirror images of each other. The US families are all a continuation of those initial Sicilian mafia groups in the US and they still use almost all of the same rules and protocol when it comes to membership and recognition among other families.

When Stefano LaTorre helped form the Pittston family, there doesn't seem to have been any point where the Pittston family stopped and said, "We're a different organization now." Some of the placeholder words like "mafia" and "Cosa Nostra" may have changed, but up through Billy D'Elia's reign over the sprawling, lucrative 1990s-2000s Pittston syndicate, they were the same family started by Sicilian mafiosi.

We also know the Sicilian mafia and US mafia still recognize each other as "the same thing". Some US mafia members/groups (Luciano) wanted to cut ties to Sicily, while many maintained those ties and allowed transfers and met with Sicilians, recognizing them as "amico nostra".

We've learned that the Gambino and Bonanno families still recognize Sicilian mafia membership and vice versa. They still allow transfers in rare cases. The recent Castellammare case is amazing because it shows all it required was a little bit of networking for a 120+ year relationship between the Bonanno and Castellammare Del Golfo mafias to be active again. The current Gambino leadership of course has strong ties to the Palermo mafia.

Because the Bonannos recognize the mafia in Sicily and the Bonannos recognize the Buffalo mafia, that means the Buffalo members could be introduced to the Sicilian mafia and recognized as the same thing if the opportunity came up.

I have seen photos of Joe Todaro Sr. and Jr. on a vacation to their ancestral hometown in Sicily during the 1990s or early 2000s. Did they meet Sicilian mafia members? Maybe not, but if they knew someone who could make that introduction, they would be recognized. The same is not true for 'Ndrangheta, as we only have examples of them being made into the mafia and subsequently being recognized as members, whereas we have no known examples of mafia members recognizing 'Ndrangheta membership on its own. The Sicilian and US mafia are both Cosa Nostra, while the other Italian organizations are not.

The Beatles

The best way to think of it might be this way:

- The Sicilian mafia is the Beatles, but the American mafia is not a Beatles cover band. The American mafia is closer to Wings, or maybe Ringo's All Stars. It's a different group, but it will always be related to the Beatles and it's not wrong to say Paul and Ringo are still Beatles members. John Lennon is dead, so he's still a Beatles member but irrelevant to the discussion. Maybe John Lennon is like a defunct family.

You wouldn't say Wings and Ringo's All Stars are the Beatles, but they're definitely not Beatles cover bands and they include members of the Beatles. The mafia is just like the Beatles.

[Angelo Santino]

Here come old, flat top... he come. Grovin' up slowly, he got...

I truly admire the way you're able to articulate your thoughts, if I had 1/4 of your ability my first draft would have been completed in 2015. You've got a skill that MA programs can't teach. Truly.

Anyways. I have been cooking all damn day, my people are fed, I'm tired and stuffed. Bon' notti.