Cleveland Crime Family

[Pogo The Clown]

I don't think that is really the case. We have plenty of examples of member informants declaring families dead that still had living members.


Pogo

[Antiliar]

One reliable source says that is the case. Never heard it before until he told me (and Chris Christie). Again, he was only speaking in a technical sense and not a practical sense.

[Pogo The Clown]

I don't know who the source is but we have documented examples of members like Angelo Lonardo, Michael Franzese, Jimmy Frattiano and Ralph Natale saying it.


And since we are talking about Cleveland, back in the late 80s Angelo Lonardo said point blank "there is no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed". Even though he knew when he said it that there were still about a dozen members still living. If that was his view then what would his view be today with only 2 or 3 members still living?


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

DiLeonardo. He was a skilled master at the politics of it all, I get the impression it was fun for him, I understand why the Sr suggested him as Consulyier, I think he was what you'd call boss material but that's neither here nor there.

Bill Bonanno spoke of family disbandings too in regards to Birmingham and that there was a process to it. Which sounds disingenuous coming from me because I constantly bash him. Each source has its strong points and weak points. It was before his time so I doubt he had any reason to lie about that compared to him being told by Roselli that he was on the grassy knoll.

The other informants, we can go through them and with each, we'll find things they say that we agree with and things we do not. I'd argue that Franzese says alot of shit such as a family is recognized when its boss sits on the commission (fuck's that even mean?), Fratianno spoke about taking on SF arguing there were only 3 guys left. He attempted this with LA when the opportunity presented itself and it blew up in his face. His doom was his A) calling himself Acting Boss and not Acting Underboss in front of NY and B) Brooklier thought he was trying to start up a rebel group. Ain't happening.

With Lonardo, I'd argue that once he was off the street his communication dwindled and once he became an informant all but ended, he was be shut off from any internal society details, he wouldn't have been in a position to know Tronolone from Florida got the position and whatever went on from there. Joe Valachi wasn't privy to Gen information once the FBI escorted him out of prison. But back to practicality, viability and all that, Lonardo was right in the sense that Cleveland as a structured entity with ranks ended.

We're not in any disagreement. Non-viable, defunct. If you're satisfied with that read no further.

Tronolone, its an interesting case because he was retired in Florida since the 1960's. One agent at the time said: "If he is the best they've got, we've won." But all that aside, the national Mafia recognized Tronolone in Florida as the boss of Cleveland. This is not disputed. Rather than focus on the viability aspect which is clearly established to be defunct, I'm more concerned with the organizational protocol behind it. Why did the rest of the country feel the need to do this? Most people would assume "the other families will move in" which people have always debated on the forums, sadly for them its not how it works. War of the Godfather's, for all its faults, concluded the war during a sitdown where John Gotti tells Joe Bonanno to get the fuck out of Batter's territory. As fake as that is, mafia rules are important.

So why "take over?" What is there to take over? I made a chart on this, 200 names/photos with only 20 made members (viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3705). I'm sure Tronolone or Loose if given the choice, would have chosen to head The Outfit or a NY Family but it doesn't work like that, they work with what they have. I'm willing to guess that Tronolone and Loose harbored no illusions about rebuilding anything, they could however hold onto what they had remaining, which was alot. Gambling and unions is lucrative, it's not making someone the next Gambino but its a comfortable living if they could get away with it. Being pointman in a city recognized by the NY and Chicago also would carry significance. The fact that Loose was still "active" up until a decade ago indicates there was still a criminal biosphere there that the rest of the mafia recognized regardless of whether or not we on a forum agree.

[Wiseguy]

I don't know if there's any made Cleveland member's left, but Chris's point is that according to internal Cosa Nostra rules that a Family isn't declared extinct until the last man standing either dies or transfers to another Family and no one is left. So even if there's one made guy in a nursing home surviving on fumes, the Family exists because it exists in its members. As far as LE and everyone else is concerned the Family maybe non-viable and for all intents and purposes, extinct. "It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shit."

I've said before that Christie's "It's their organization" argument is a strong one, unlike all the others people have thrown out. But it's, in many ways, a different argument than the one that keeps popping up. Most of the people bringing up the existence of families long defunct are arguing they are considerably more than some old guys in a retirement home who may still be recognized in some formal or academic sense.

As far as what you mentioned, there's still at least one living member in Buffalo, Rochester, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, St. Louis, Kansas City, Tampa, New Orleans, Denver, and Los Angeles. However, adding those to the 9 families still acknowledged by the government, is anyone really going to say there are still 20 families left in the U.S.?

[Angelo Santino]

I don't know if there's any made Cleveland member's left, but Chris's point is that according to internal Cosa Nostra rules that a Family isn't declared extinct until the last man standing either dies or transfers to another Family and no one is left. So even if there's one made guy in a nursing home surviving on fumes, the Family exists because it exists in its members. As far as LE and everyone else is concerned the Family maybe non-viable and for all intents and purposes, extinct. "It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shit."

I've said before that Christie's "It's their organization" argument is a strong one, unlike all the others people have thrown out. But it's, in many ways, a different argument than the one that keeps popping up.Most of the people bringing up the existence of families long defunct are arguing they are considerably more than some old guys in a retirement home who may still be recognized in some formal or academic sense.

As far as what you mentioned, there's still at least one living member in Buffalo, Rochester, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, St. Louis, Kansas City, Tampa, New Orleans, Denver, and Los Angeles. However, adding those to the 9 families still acknowledged by the government, is anyone really going to say there are still 20 families left in the U.S.?

I know you didn't mean it like this, but one could conclude that what you're arguing is that the truth lies with the external quote unquote experts while what the mafia's own members think and practice in regards to their secret society is speculative academic theory? This isn't a gotcha, I respect you. You didn't mean it like this.

Being that it's a secret society I keep that in mind. In regards to CL today- there's no Family in the sense that we all define it to be- admin, crews, organization. If asked, I'd say its been largely inactive since the 80's but there's been a few chiefs with no Indians who occupied the formal positions that connect with the national model. But for all intents and purposes its dead. However, lets say next year Bellomo's picked up discussing business with Cleveland and how the boss there is a total cunt to his 20 members, I will change my thinking without the expectation that it'll all be laid out in a bow for me. Even if its not that extreme and we just have another one member do nothing, we won't know because its their society and they don't put out a press release. "If a tree falls in the woods" type of thing. I have no ego in this. Been wrong before and I'll be wrong in the future. Admitably I'm awful at making predictions. I doubted Montagna had any pull to be behind Canada when things were going down in real time, boy was I fucking off. I admit it, I own it. I learned a lesson: be humble.

Other groups. Buffalo? Another thread for that. Detroit? That's an ego trip right there. LA? Allegedly two guys were made there after Milano died. (I was mistaken, disregard) What does it mean? I'm fine with saying we need to wait for more information. Salut.

Speaking of LA, Tommy Gambino is there. What is he? He's not a captain anymore, he's probably not sending money up to any administration? Is he retired? He travels frequently to Sicily and has been documented meeting with people there. When Gambinos go to LA do they not pay Gambino a visit or use his Sicilian contacts? We don't know.

[Antiliar]

It's like a no-show union job! LOL

[Angelo Santino]

It's like a no-show union job! LOL

It is a union or rather an exclusive boy's club. Ranks aside, there's a basic rule, members acknowledge each other: you don't hit another made guy even if he's a scumbag and you dont' move into another boss' territory even if he has no soldiers. It is what it is, we as researchers and students should seek to better understand that, not disregard it. During the Philly dispute no one turned to D'Elia and said: "Fuck do you know, you have nobody under you." New York didn't chime in: "Don't listen to Billy, he's just a boss in name." We have no evidence of this, quite the opposite in fact.

[Pogo The Clown]

With Lonardo, I'd argue that once he was off the street his communication dwindled and once he became an informant all but ended, he was be shut off from any internal society details, he wouldn't have been in a position to know Tronolone from Florida got the position and whatever went on from there. Joe Valachi wasn't privy to Gen information once the FBI escorted him out of prison. But back to practicality, viability and all that, Lonardo was right in the sense that Cleveland as a structured entity with ranks ended..

Lonardo was still the UnderBoss for the first 2 years of Tronolone's reign. So he would have been aware that Tronolone headed what was left. But I was speaking more to the 1 living member = a family rule that Antiliar brought up. Lonardo was the Cleveland Acting Boss, UnderBoss, had been a member of that group since the 1940s and his father was the Boss in the 1920s (first Cleveland Boss?). So we can assume if there were such a rule he would have been aware of it. But he still said there was no family in Cleveland despite knowing there still living members in Cleveland.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

Speaking of LA, Tommy Gambino is there. What is he? He's not a captain anymore, he's probably not sending money up to any administration? Is he retired? He travels frequently to Sicily and has been documented meeting with people there. When Gambinos go to LA do they not pay Gambino a visit or use his Sicilian contacts? We don't know.

Didn't DiLeonardo or someone say he's under the Gambinos now? He's still a made member but the family he was initiated into is gone and so, given the familial connections and all, it would make sense. He seems to basically an ostensibly legitimate entrepreneur now. Last I read, he and his wife were starting their own line of Italian wines.

[cavita]

There.

[Angelo Santino]

With Lonardo, I'd argue that once he was off the street his communication dwindled and once he became an informant all but ended, he was be shut off from any internal society details, he wouldn't have been in a position to know Tronolone from Florida got the position and whatever went on from there. Joe Valachi wasn't privy to Gen information once the FBI escorted him out of prison. But back to practicality, viability and all that, Lonardo was right in the sense that Cleveland as a structured entity with ranks ended..

Lonardo was still the UnderBoss for the first 2 years of Tronolone's reign. So he would have been aware that Tronolone headed what was left. But I was speaking more to the 1 living member = a family rule that Antiliar brought up. Lonardo was the Cleveland Acting Boss, UnderBoss, had been a member of that group since the 1940s and his father was the Boss in the 1920s (first Cleveland Boss?). So we can assume if there were such a rule he would have been aware of it. But he still said there was no family in Cleveland despite knowing there still living members in Cleveland.


Pogo

Lonardo was acting boss until he was incarcerated, during which time he kept his underboss role. In that time he was likely working on his case, unconnected to the organization (or lack of as we know) on the street. He did say there was no more organization. But he also went onto say that one member could turn that around, he gets recognized and begins making people. It's in his testimony.

CaptureLonardo.PNG

I'm not countering your assertion that Cleveland is finished. I understand, agree and accept your argument that the Cleveland LCN as a viable enterprise is dead. White flag. I do humbly invite you to see my side- the organizational- approach to things. These philosophies aren't in conflict with each other, they just lead to a broader understanding which is what you and I, in our 2 decades here, are here for. Your viable philosophy doesn't explain Tronlone or Loose, my organizational theory does.

It's like in college when people read old literature and the assignments are to analyze things from a this, this or that perspective. There's no right or wrong, just different interpretations that when weighed together and factored in, leads to a deeper understanding overall. And each theory has limitations. Here's mine: for all my bloodlines bullshit, how many members are actually aware of it? How much does it factor into their life who they are related to? In the scope of OC, probably very little. But long term, let's go back to the Asaros, they more than likely were directly responsible/influential as a bloodline in the formation the CDG Family, today they are still high ranking members in the Bonannos as was every generation in between, 150 years of activity. Regardless of how Gene/John paint them as drunks and fuck ups. One GL article from years ago indicated that Vincent Asaro- an alcoholic, a brokester, was a contender for Bonanno boss with a few others. Are you prepared to argue that bloodlines don't matter, that they aren't a thing within their mafia organization?

Speaking of LA, Tommy Gambino is there. What is he? He's not a captain anymore, he's probably not sending money up to any administration? Is he retired? He travels frequently to Sicily and has been documented meeting with people there. When Gambinos go to LA do they not pay Gambino a visit or use his Sicilian contacts? We don't know.

Didn't DiLeonardo or someone say he's under the Gambinos now? He's still a made member but the family he was initiated into is gone and so, given the familial connections and all, it would make sense. He seems to basically an ostensibly legitimate entrepreneur now. Last I read, he and his wife were starting their own line of Italian wines.

Who was under the Gambinos? LA or Cleveland? I think LA, Tomasso Gambino? I was referring to Carlo's son Tommy Gambino, not the relative Tomasso who's suspected of being made underboss before Milano died (which was nothing beyond rumor.) If you need me to ask DiLeonardo something I'll contact him tomorrow, worst he can do is not respond. I don't know about any city aside from Tampa being under the Gams, so my asking will help me too. What should I ask him?

A legitimate entrepreneur? So this guy went through to ceremony to do nothing with it? To not move within the mafia network? It's not always a Chris Moltisanti situation of street work and kicking up, especially if you're from the right bloodlines and in the case of Gambino, like another poster once said, "they are not in the mafia, they ARE the mafia." There's more at work here than just guys with Italian surnames calling themselves boss, underboss down to soldier. It's alot of it, but not all.

I would argue that a soldier who is out everyday committing crimes and kicking up to his capo is just as significant as someone who doesn't but maintains connections between places that we, as outsiders, cannot directly see because its unreported. I know that sounds conspiratorial and intangible so I raise Giuseppe Traina, a so-called "Sleeper" after 1930, who was influential until the 70's. Am I saying there's some super secret mafia wing of "sleepers": a hard no. But they exist, we see that in the LA Gambinos, we see that with the Todaros of Buffalo. (Sorry).

I get, accept, understand and embrace the viability argument. If anyone asks I'd give your answer. However, from an organizational perspective, things play out a certain way and that's my area. I'm not countering your viability argument, I'm nestling next to you. I see your side and its lead to a deeper understanding, I humbly implore you to see mine. It'll lead to a deeper understanding of the entire thing. Think about it, even if you fervently disagree, you can find knowledge in understanding what its own members believe in their organization.

It's your equivalent to my hearing Jersey was the first family. I can prove that that wrong up and down, I can skullfuck that theory into oblivion with facts and statistics that go outside of "the may'fia." I established its not true, rather than go around piping off about how good of a researcher I am, I instead see the goal being as to discover where this claim originated? I can argue it all day that Jersey wasn't the first, but then we have Rotundo and D'Arco and Stango, three high ranking members from the DeCavs and Luccheses claiming the mafia began in NJ. It's their organization right, right!? There's a gotcha for you to me.

I don't have all the answers, admitably. Salut, buddy.

[Confederate]

With Lonardo, I'd argue that once he was off the street his communication dwindled and once he became an informant all but ended, he was be shut off from any internal society details, he wouldn't have been in a position to know Tronolone from Florida got the position and whatever went on from there. Joe Valachi wasn't privy to Gen information once the FBI escorted him out of prison. But back to practicality, viability and all that, Lonardo was right in the sense that Cleveland as a structured entity with ranks ended..

Lonardo was still the UnderBoss for the first 2 years of Tronolone's reign. So he would have been aware that Tronolone headed what was left. But I was speaking more to the 1 living member = a family rule that Antiliar brought up. Lonardo was the Cleveland Acting Boss, UnderBoss, had been a member of that group since the 1940s and his father was the Boss in the 1920s (first Cleveland Boss?). So we can assume if there were such a rule he would have been aware of it. But he still said there was no family in Cleveland despite knowing there still living members in Cleveland.


Pogo

Lonardo was acting boss until he was incarcerated, during which time he kept his underboss role. In that time he was likely working on his case, unconnected to the organization (or lack of as we know) on the street. He did say there was no more organization. But he also went onto say that one member could turn that around, he gets recognized and begins making people. It's in his testimony.

I'm not countering your assertion that Cleveland is finished. I understand, agree and accept your argument that the Cleveland LCN as a viable enterprise is dead. White flag. I do humbly invite you to see my side- the organizational- approach to things. These philosophies aren't in conflict with each other, they just lead to a broader understanding which is what you and I, in our 2 decades here, are here for.

Speaking of LA, Tommy Gambino is there. What is he? He's not a captain anymore, he's probably not sending money up to any administration? Is he retired? He travels frequently to Sicily and has been documented meeting with people there. When Gambinos go to LA do they not pay Gambino a visit or use his Sicilian contacts? We don't know.

Didn't DiLeonardo or someone say he's under the Gambinos now? He's still a made member but the family he was initiated into is gone and so, given the familial connections and all, it would make sense. He seems to basically an ostensibly legitimate entrepreneur now. Last I read, he and his wife were starting their own line of Italian wines.

Who was under the Gambinos? LA or Cleveland? I think LA, Tomasso Gambino? I was referring to Carlo's son Tommy Gambino, not the relative Tomasso who's suspected of being made underboss before Milano died (which was nothing beyond rumor.)

A legitimate entrepreneur? So this guy went through to ceremony to go legit? And not to move within the mafia network? It's not always a Chris Moltisanti situation of street work and kicking up, especially if you're from the right bloodlines and in the case of Gambino, like another poster once said, "they are not in the mafia, they ARE the mafia."

I would argue that a soldier who is out everyday committing crimes and kicking up to his capo is just as significant as someone who doesn't but maintains connections between places that we, as outsiders, cannot directly see because its unreported. I know that sounds conspiratorial and intangible so I raise Giuseppe Traina, a so-called "Sleeper" after 1930, who was influential until the 70's.

So what you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that if there is 1 made guy still alive in a city that has been declared defunct as far as having an active Mafia Family, that 1 guy is still a member of the National LCN & if someone wants to do some illegal business in that particular city, they have to check in with that 1 guy because that is the LCN protocol. Being an "active" Family & being a lone member of a national Organization are two different things is what I believe is your point. That is logical. You would know better than me if that protocol is still followed in 2020.

[Wiseguy]

Who was under the Gambinos? LA or Cleveland? I think LA, Tomasso Gambino? I was referring to Carlo's son Tommy Gambino, not the relative Tomasso who's suspected of being made underboss before Milano died (which was nothing beyond rumor.)

A legitimate entrepreneur? So this guy went through to ceremony to go legit? And not to move within the mafia network? It's not always a Chris Moltisanti situation of street work and kicking up, especially if you're from the right bloodlines and in the case of Gambino, like another poster once said, "they are not in the mafia, they ARE the mafia."

I would argue that a soldier who is out everyday committing crimes and kicking up to his capo is just as significant as someone who doesn't but maintains connections between places that we, as outsiders, cannot directly see because its unreported. I know that sounds conspiratorial and intangible so I raise Giuseppe Traina, a so-called "Sleeper" after 1930, who was influential until the 70's.

I'm talking about Tommy Gambino, who was made into the LA family. And a Congressional report did identify him as the LA underboss at one point. Which, by the way, is yet another example of a guy being named to a top position when there was really only remnants of a family left

I'm not saying he still wouldn't use the Mafia network. He's still a part of it. But, if you look at his track record over the past 20 years, he's kept his nose clean and been involved in ostensibly legit things like an entertainment company, vodka, and the Italian wine.

Thomas Gambino, former captain under John Gotti, did move out to California some years ago. He's retired. His son, Thomas Jr., runs Dynamic Worldwide Trucking.

And when you or anyone else can positively identify even a few of these 20 or so "sleepers" in Buffalo or Hamilton, then maybe you can talk like their existence is established fact.

[Angelo Santino]

Who was under the Gambinos? LA or Cleveland? I think LA, Tomasso Gambino? I was referring to Carlo's son Tommy Gambino, not the relative Tomasso who's suspected of being made underboss before Milano died (which was nothing beyond rumor.)

A legitimate entrepreneur? So this guy went through to ceremony to go legit? And not to move within the mafia network? It's not always a Chris Moltisanti situation of street work and kicking up, especially if you're from the right bloodlines and in the case of Gambino, like another poster once said, "they are not in the mafia, they ARE the mafia."

I would argue that a soldier who is out everyday committing crimes and kicking up to his capo is just as significant as someone who doesn't but maintains connections between places that we, as outsiders, cannot directly see because its unreported. I know that sounds conspiratorial and intangible so I raise Giuseppe Traina, a so-called "Sleeper" after 1930, who was influential until the 70's.

I'm talking about Tommy Gambino, who was made into the LA family. And a Congressional report did identify him as the LA underboss at one point. Which, by the way, is yet another example of a guy being named to a top position when there was really only remnants of a family left

I'm not saying he still wouldn't use the Mafia network. He's still a part of it. But, if you look at his track record over the past 20 years, he's kept his nose clean and been involved in ostensibly legit things like an entertainment company, vodka, and the Italian wine.

Thomas Gambino, former captain under John Gotti, did move out to California some years ago. He's retired. His son, Thomas Jr., runs Dynamic Worldwide Trucking.

If NY and every other Mafia-affiliated city with a Family regards and recognizes this Tommy Gambino as Underboss of LA, then that weighs more (to them) than any claim from 100 FBI agents claiming it isn't viable. NY isn't going to say: "Let's call Tommy in LA, oh wait a minute, he's not viable according to the Feds." When Pete Milano died what happened to this guy's status? Maybe we're making the wrong conclusions when we note an absence of street crews going around committing crimes. There's no Family in LA because there's no need or warrant for it. The Mafia is organic, it serves a purpose. All these defunct families in the 70's from SF to St Louis could have inflated their ranks to 100 members each if the prerequisite was simply recruiting a criminal with an Italian surname.. They didn't. Why? If this was purely a criminal gang they would have. Please buddy, I beseech you, there's is more it than that and to acknowledge it is not to threaten or render obsolete the viability argument.

Regarding the son, he travels to Sicily and meets with members there frequently. Are you prepared to say that Tommy Gambino has no involvement and his meeting with Sicilian amico nos is just guys rehashing the old days? You may feel comfortable concluding that. I myself do not know. And respectfully and humbly, assert that what you're stating is a very Dan-like argument (I know you want to hit for me saying that) who'd argue a commission meeting was just guys exchanging their mother's recipes. You did this with Bonannos meeting with Canadians and Buffalo members. We don't have to agree, I respect you and your points and will always factor them in. I'm fine with knowing that I don't know everything.

Good discussion. Salut.