New York surnames

[Angelo Santino]

One thing I notice is that Italians there, even those that speak Ital, anglicize their surnames. I thought that was a midwest thing. When I worked for the Vitales in Michigan, it was pronounced Vy-tally rather than the Italo Vee-tah-lay. I noticed that in a Gravano clip, he pronounces his name Gruh-van-O rather than the proper Grah-vaw-no.

3:15 - "My name is Sal-vuh-torr Gruh-van-no." He didn't go all "Sal-vah-torrrrr-ray Graw-vahhhh-noooo."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHhuC-T-xlM

But anyways, I ran into this talking with someone, he was saying "Dah-quella" (rhymes with Bacala) and I didn't realize he was discussing D'Aquila. Dah-Quee-lah in standard Ital. When you think about it, everyone said "Got-tee" not "Goat-tee." Mineo is said "min-ee-O rather than "Mih-Nay-O." Bonanno "Boe-nan'nah" rather than "Boe-naan-noe" which explains "Bananas" because it's pronounced similar to that. Badalamenti - Bah'daw'luh'men'tee becomes Bad-uh-luh-men-tee.

Looking at my own name, I'm guilty of it too. My name includes a "Ci" which in Ital is "Ch" but I pronounce it with an "S" because I've long since grown tired of saying there's no CH. Think of it like Cifaretto, it was said "Sif-far-eh-toe" on the show, in Itali it'd be "Chee'fah'reh'toe." Last time I was back in Sicily, I was called by my proper name and the nostalgia, wow, it just washed over me. That was 2014. Good times.

My question is, for anyone with the background who grew up in NY, how did it come to you pronouncing your surnames Anglicized yet still spoke some Italian. I imagine it was mostly oral from speaking with parents and grandparents but it's an interesting contrast.

Just curious. Thoughts?

[Chaps]

You know Gov, I'm glad you brought this up. Not NY but Ohio. There was a family meat market that my family always went to named Gentile's. My aunt and everyone else (we are not Italian) pronounced it Gen-tile. I (mainly because of my interest in the Mafia) pronounced it Gen-tee-le with a short e. Which is correct?

[Angelo Santino]

You know Gov, I'm glad you brought this up. Not NY but Ohio. There was a family meat market that my family always went to named Gentile's. My aunt and everyone else (we are not Italian) pronounced it Gen-tile. I (mainly because of my interest in the Mafia) pronounced it Gen-tee-le with a short e. Which is correct?

Jen-teal is the Anglicized version, Jen-tee-lay would be standard Italian pronunciation.

Another thing, this "Como stai" (Koe-moe-stye) stuff, growing up it was "comu si." (Go-moe see." That may be a distinction between Sicilians and mainlanders in terms of dialect. Maybe.

What's said in NY- Como Stai or Comu si? I've heard 'stai' but maybe others have different experiences. The more east one goes in Sicily the more Greek influence picks up where the dialect there sounds like Calabrese, a very harsh dialect, hard ending emphasis. Whereas the further east you go, Sicilian takes on a softer more romantic sound, similar to Northern Italy as far as the softness. Sicilian is a language for whispering, Neapolitan is a language for ranting and Calabrian is a language for complaining. Something like that, I'm butchering it I think.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Ha.

Chris, this thread was a joy and pleasure to read.
Thank you.

[JeremyTheJew]

Didn't know u were in Michigan, gov.
Next time we'll have lunch with Scott. Me and Jimmy b use to have few meet ups too together and w Scott

[JeremyTheJew]

One thing I notice is that Italians there, even those that speak Ital, anglicize their surnames. I thought that was a midwest thing. When I worked for the Vitales in Michigan, it was pronounced Vy-tally rather than the Italo Vee-tah-lay. I noticed that in a Gravano clip, he pronounces his name Gruh-van-O rather than the proper Grah-vaw-no.

3:15 - "My name is Sal-vuh-torr Gruh-van-no." He didn't go all "Sal-vah-torrrrr-ray Graw-vahhhh-noooo."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHhuC-T-xlM

But anyways, I ran into this talking with someone, he was saying "Dah-quella" (rhymes with Bacala) and I didn't realize he was discussing D'Aquila. Dah-Quee-lah in standard Ital. When you think about it, everyone said "Got-tee" not "Goat-tee." Mineo is said "min-ee-O rather than "Mih-Nay-O." Bonanno "Boe-nan'nah" rather than "Boe-naan-noe" which explains "Bananas" because it's pronounced similar to that. Badalamenti - Bah'daw'luh'men'tee becomes Bad-uh-luh-men-tee.

Looking at my own name, I'm guilty of it too. My name includes a "Ci" which in Ital is "Ch" but I pronounce it with an "S" because I've long since grown tired of saying there's no CH. Think of it like Cifaretto, it was said "Sif-far-eh-toe" on the show, in Itali it'd be "Chee'fah'reh'toe." Last time I was back in Sicily, I was called by my proper name and the nostalgia, wow, it just washed over me. That was 2014. Good times.

My question is, for anyone with the background who grew up in NY, how did it come to you pronouncing your surnames Anglicized yet still spoke some Italian. I imagine it was mostly oral from speaking with parents and grandparents but it's an interesting contrast.

Just curious. Thoughts?

And were you referring to Vitale's landscaping company?? I worked w a few of them guys before also

[Angelo Santino]

Restaurants. From what I heard back then, Joe Vitale won it in a card game back in the 70's and expanded it into a chain, they ended up turning over the business to their daughter and her husband. I worked there as a kid (late 90's) and "Mister Vye-tally" would come in and inspect the establishments. He died in 2011 and closed the business in 2015.

https://obits.mlive.com/obituaries/sagi ... &fhid=9258

[The Greek]

In New Castle PA my high school buddies were Natale pronounced Nuh Tell. Same with Vitale.. it was Vuh Tell.

[B.]

Speaking of Gravano, his pronunciation of consigliere in his testimony is funny. He slurs it and it varies between something like "gunslere" and "unslere", with the last part of the word trailing off and even dropping the opening c/g sound. Gotti pronounces it similarly in one of the FBI tapes.

I pronounce it "con-sil-yere-ee", but I've heard you pronounce it "con-sig-lee-ear-ee" though I figured you were f'n around. I'd defer to you 100% of the time over my butchered pronunciations either way. Would it be "gun-sil-yeti" in dialect? Before it was a household word, FBI agents used to take it down phonetically as "consuleri" and similar variations.

What about the name Gagliano? I've heard it pronounced "Gall-yah-no" but the more common Americanized version tends to be "Gag-lee-ah-no".

What about Ciancaglini? With the Philly guys we've heard "Chang-uh-lee-nee", which actually seems fairly close to what it should be all things considered. The second "c" becoming a "g" sound makes sense, but should it be more like "Chain-guh-lee-nee"?

[Angelo Santino]

Speaking of Gravano, his pronunciation of consigliere in his testimony is funny. He slurs it and it varies between something like "gunslere" and "unslere", with the last part of the word trailing off and even dropping the opening c/g sound. Gotti pronounces it similarly in one of the FBI tapes.

I pronounce it "con-sil-yere-ee", but I've heard you pronounce it "con-sig-lee-ear-ee" though I figured you were f'n around. I'd defer to you 100% of the time over my butchered pronunciations either way. Would it be "gun-sil-yeti" in dialect? Before it was a household word, FBI agents used to take it down phonetically as "consuleri" and similar variations.

What about the name Gagliano? I've heard it pronounced "Gall-yah-no" but the more common Americanized version tends to be "Gag-lee-ah-no".

What about Ciancaglini? With the Philly guys we've heard "Chang-uh-lee-nee", which actually seems fairly close to what it should be all things considered. The second "c" becoming a "g" sound makes sense, but should it be more like "Chain-guh-lee-nee"?

Do you get the impression that some of them "slur" through it because they're not really sure how to say it? It's not their fault, their exposure to Italian was likely limited to oral/audio through family with little to no written/writing practice. They are repeating words that they heard and it becomes Chinese Whispers. Not to mention they're in the Mafia, not cultural representatives.

Gagliano. The G in the middle is very soft, used as a soft cushion to land on and catapult to the next syllable. Think "Billion" and then say Gagliano, figli, glielo, maglia, consiglio.

Ciancaglini I'd ask someone in Phila. how they pronounce it... For me, when people speak in English and say "I don't know" they do not enunciate each and every syllable, if they did they'd sound british posh. Instead it sounds like "Eye Doe No" or "Eye'dunno." To a foreigner that sounds very different than the "right" way of "I-don't-know." When Americans say "Apartment" in the middle of a sentence do they say "ment" or "men?" I'm looking at the apartmenT today. When you emphasize the T it changes the sentence's oral meaning to sound like you mean apartment hunting is a bad ordeal. Am I making sense?... Cian is Chee-ahn but quickly spoken sounds like Chane (but it sounds off when people just try to pronounce 'chane' and not 'cian' does that make sense, the Ital-to-Eng rules get further diluted. Caglini goes back to the above. Cahhh(g)-lini. The G is soft like 'hog' as in "don't hog it" where the G almost borders on the K. But spoken swiftly it goes back to the middle of "billion."

This is good Office Michael Scott example of what happens when people try to pronounce "Gabagool" without fully knowing what they're trying to say, which is a Brooklino pronounciation of "capicola." When outsiders try it, it comes off like a white rapper trying to say the N-word with an -ah ending, it just doesn't land.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3poPknWsX84

The Mexican Mafia of So Cal primarily speaks English. Alot of families in that region are 4-6 generation Californians and the eMe always reflected that. They speak English with Spanish phrases ("Orale, let's go do a jale on this pinche chapete MobFan for claiming he's from Roccamena, holmes), more recently they tried to incorporate Nahuatl (Aztec language) which they got from books. Compare that to the Texas Mexican Mafia who's members primarily speak in full Spanish Tex-Mex sentences. Culturally both mafias are worlds apart.

[TwoPiece]

Speaking of Gravano, his pronunciation of consigliere in his testimony is funny. He slurs it and it varies between something like "gunslere" and "unslere", with the last part of the word trailing off and even dropping the opening c/g sound. Gotti pronounces it similarly in one of the FBI tapes.

I pronounce it "con-sil-yere-ee", but I've heard you pronounce it "con-sig-lee-ear-ee" though I figured you were f'n around. I'd defer to you 100% of the time over my butchered pronunciations either way. Would it be "gun-sil-yeti" in dialect? Before it was a household word, FBI agents used to take it down phonetically as "consuleri" and similar variations.

there's a tape with angelo prisco pronouncing it in a similar way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTEmp1yu-qs

[Angelo Santino]

Speaking of Gravano, his pronunciation of consigliere in his testimony is funny. He slurs it and it varies between something like "gunslere" and "unslere", with the last part of the word trailing off and even dropping the opening c/g sound. Gotti pronounces it similarly in one of the FBI tapes.

I pronounce it "con-sil-yere-ee", but I've heard you pronounce it "con-sig-lee-ear-ee" though I figured you were f'n around. I'd defer to you 100% of the time over my butchered pronunciations either way. Would it be "gun-sil-yeti" in dialect? Before it was a household word, FBI agents used to take it down phonetically as "consuleri" and similar variations.

there's a tape with angelo prisco pronouncing it in a similar way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTEmp1yu-qs

10:34 "goong-zoo-year-li"

[PolackTony]

You know Gov, I'm glad you brought this up. Not NY but Ohio. There was a family meat market that my family always went to named Gentile's. My aunt and everyone else (we are not Italian) pronounced it Gen-tile. I (mainly because of my interest in the Mafia) pronounced it Gen-tee-le with a short e. Which is correct?

Jen-teal is the Anglicized version, Jen-tee-lay would be standard Italian pronunciation.

Another thing, this "Como stai" (Koe-moe-stye) stuff, growing up it was "comu si." (Go-moe see." That may be a distinction between Sicilians and mainlanders in terms of dialect. Maybe.

What's said in NY- Como Stai or Comu si? I've heard 'stai' but maybe others have different experiences. The more east one goes in Sicily the more Greek influence picks up where the dialect there sounds like Calabrese, a very harsh dialect, hard ending emphasis. Whereas the further east you go, Sicilian takes on a softer more romantic sound, similar to Northern Italy as far as the softness. Sicilian is a language for whispering, Neapolitan is a language for ranting and Calabrian is a language for complaining. Something like that, I'm butchering it I think.

Nice thread. I think it's important to underscore that these shifts in pronunciation are due to two reinforcing factors. First of course is Anglicizationand the second the regional origins of Italian Americans. So it's not just a matter of some of these distinctive pronunciations stemming from English based deformation of the original Italian, or distinct regional Italian dialectical features, but rather an interplay between both processes. The "Italian" that phonetic Americanization worked on was largely not "Italian" of course, but various regional dialects of Napuletano and Sicilianu (which themselves are languages in their own right, not "dialects" of standard Italian as often assumed). Certain features of Napuletano in particular are close to phonetic tendencies in American English -- e.g., the replacement of vowels in un stressed syllables with schwa sounds, elision or dropping of post-consonant unstressed word final vowels. So the interplay between Mezzogiorno peasant roots and Americanization shaped the pronunciations characteristic of Italian American communities today. FWIW the pronunciation and slang words that I hear here in NYC are largely the same as in Chicago (the main differences simply being due to the NYC vs Chicago accent).

One of the things that tends to annoy me are the discussions one sees periodically on the internet where people make fun of stereotypical Italian American speech. Like "look at these Americanized, low-class dumbasses, don't they realize it's pronounced Kah-pee-KOH-lah???". When in reality the people doing the mocking generally haven't the slightest actual clue about either the linguistic history of Southern Italy or the historical dynamics of Italian settlement in America. While there's plenty of Anglicization of course, a great deal of Italian American speech patterns (not to mention of course lexical items and idioms) are very obviously in line with Napuletano and Sicilianu origins, these being distinct Romance languages historically and not "bastardized" versions of standard Italian.

[Angelo Santino]

Italy was only unified in the 1850's. When Italos arrived in the 1870's to 1900's they fully became one unified demographic gradually. The San Gennaro festival was a regional holiday that came to be embraced by all NY Itals. On average, from research on the subject, it took dialect Italians an average of 3 years to learns formal Italian and 7 more years to speak English as a first.

But even so, Sicilians and Italians could converse with each other the same way a redneck from Alabama can talk to a New Yorker from Brooklyn. The Soda is called pop and grease is reused and maybe they never heard of capicola or grits but they can understand each other. Dialect is not so different that it's Chinese and Englishmen trying to build a fort. If anything the difference is more cultural.

Despite this subject of the Mafia which is heavily laced in Italian culture, Italians strived to be Americans. This is noted in Joe B's autobio who considered his citizenship one of the proudest days of his life. Clemente as early as 1910 went by Clement and married an American woman (which prevented kidnap victims from being stashed at his place otherwise he'd be cool with it.) Looking at death certificates and the coroners reports, more than a few guys had tattoos of Italian and American flags on their backs and torsos in the 1920's.

So the melting pot is very much a factor. My entire thesis on compaesanismo and regional affiliations exist, but its like sand blowing in a storm if that makes sense. And after 2-3 generations, some of these guys may not be aware of it. Gravano of Porto Empedoclini descent may not have realize he was being made in a primary Agrigentese faction within the Gambinos, if I get the chance to ask him he may very well disregard it as coincidence or me as a mafia nerd seeing things that are not there. But I'd argue "birds of a feather" is still very much a factor, at least up until his era.

[PolackTony]

Italy was only unified in the 1850's. When Italos arrived in the 1870's to 1900's they fully became one unified demographic gradually. The San Gennaro festival was a regional holiday that came to be embraced by all NY Itals. On average, from research on the subject, it took dialect Italians an average of 3 years to learns formal Italian and 7 more years to speak English as a first.

But even so, Sicilians and Italians could converse with each other the same way a redneck from Alabama can talk to a New Yorker from Brooklyn. The Soda is called pop and grease is reused and maybe they never heard of capicola or grits but they can understand each other. Dialect is not so different that it's Chinese and Englishmen trying to build a fort. If anything the difference is more cultural.

Despite this subject of the Mafia which is heavily laced in Italian culture, Italians strived to be Americans. This is noted in Joe B's autobio who considered his citizenship one of the proudest days of his life. Clemente as early as 1910 went by Clement and married an American woman (which prevented kidnap victims from being stashed at his place otherwise he'd be cool with it.) Looking at death certificates and the coroners reports, more than a few guys had tattoos of Italian and American flags on their backs and torsos in the 1920's.

So the melting pot is very much a factor. My entire thesis on compaesanismo and regional affiliations exist, but its like sand blowing in a storm if that makes sense. And after 2-3 generations, some of these guys may not be aware of it. Gravano of Porto Empedoclini descent may not have realize he was being made in a primary Agrigentese faction within the Gambinos, if I get the chance to ask him he may very well disregard it as coincidence or me as a mafia nerd seeing things that are not there. But I'd argue "birds of a feather" is still very much a factor, at least up until his era.

Agreed. All very well stated. The American Mafia is of course itself one of these institutions or arenas through which a particular sense of Italian American identity was formed for the descendants of strongly (sub)regionally identified contadini migrants, via what originally was a set of Sicilian derived practices. So in this sense it's like San Gennaro. The dilution of regional distinctiveness within a dominant Italian American culture and identity I think is again underscored by typical speech patterns, where say someone of Sicilian origin may be using phonetic patterns or idioms of Neapolitan origin, and vice versa, all long since mixed together as commonly held identifiers of "Italianness" in US communities.