Crea as Boss?

[johnny_scootch]

From the Pennisi testimony;


Well, Stevie showed up to the meeting to meet with a bunch of guys that were there. I don't know exactly who was there, but they were -- had a lot of respect for him because he showed up by himself. You know, in that situation, it's a dangerous one. And they all respected Stevie. We all respected Stevie. We always looked to Stevie, really, as our boss. Even though Matty had the title of Acting -- Acting Boss, we looked to Stevie as our boss. Stevie carried himself like a boss. But they -- they knew that there was legal troubles coming for Stevie, and they told him that if he could, God willing, beat the case, that they would accept Stevie as -- as the boss. They were willing to accept him as their boss and put Stevie in the boss position instead of underboss.


So from this it's clear that Crea was the real power behind Madonna as the soldiers (even from the Brooklyn faction) looked to Crea as their Boss. Also very interesting that at this meeting between we can assume DeSantis, Dellorusso, Crea and whoever else they inform Crea that they are taking over but promise that if he beats the case they will step back and let him resume power. You just don't see that kind of cooperation very often these days. Pretty obvious how insanely respected Crea is with the Lucchese family membership and NYC mafia in general.

[TommyGambino]

Not exactly the threat it was made out to be, no? Do they mean Crea would have been acting boss if he beat the case? Surely not official

[chin_gigante]

Likely the reason behind the confusion years ago over whether Crea or Amuso was the official boss

[Frank]

I dont see where Crea was indanger, am I missing something

[Wiseguy]

Likely the reason behind the confusion years ago over whether Crea or Amuso was the official boss

If you're referring to the confusion on the forums, that was simply the result of people assuming it wasn't possible for Amuso to remain boss while doing a life sentence.

Anyway, it seems Pennisi was saying that, even though Madonna was acting boss and Crea was underboss, they looked at Crea as the guy really running things on the street rather than Madonna. Doesn't seem to really be a commentary on whether Amuso was still recognized as the official boss, which he was.

[Angelo Santino]

Likely the reason behind the confusion years ago over whether Crea or Amuso was the official boss

If you're referring to the confusion on the forums, that was simply the result of people assuming it wasn't possible for Amuso to remain boss while doing a life sentence.

Anyway, it seems Pennisi was saying that, even though Madonna was acting boss and Crea was underboss, they looked at Crea as the guy really running things on the street rather than Madonna. Doesn't seem to really be a commentary on whether Amuso was still recognized as the official boss, which he was.

To be fair, gangland reported that Crea and Cefalu replaced Amuso and Gotti.

It was funny because one individual (who shall remain nameless, not even sure if he posts anymore) at the time said: "Been saying that for years, this is common knowledge, what Capeci is saying is not new information." Then two years later Capeci issues a correction stating it's still Amuso and Gotti. Same poster responds verbatim that he's been now saying THAT for years and what Capeci is revealing is nothing new. It should have been annoying to me but I kinda found it adorable.

Anyway, that was Capeci's bad.

Looking at that excerpt- it's a great example- I'd argue it's probably true but how things look from an operational viewpoint is different than organizational and at the end of the day, the Boss, Acting Boss and Underboss are what they are. They can function however they want but those titles don't change and unless a formal process is underwent, these positions don't become gray. It just appears that way to outsiders.

The Sopranos made "front bosses" popular, Silvio's line "We got a new lightning rod to take the hits" sounds nifty in theory, but in practice that would be very dangerous. IRL, once Junior was made boss that would have been it. Sack would have been in violation for deferring to Tony had Junior discovered it and went to NY to complain. He also could have been allowed to have all of Tony's crew shelved and demoted Tony and he wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. What's Tony going to do, call NY in and say: "I made Junior the boss but he's not really the boss?" That wouldn't fly in a mafia court because the boss is the boss.... And honestly, who would want to be a "front boss?" It's more likely you have an administration of leaders dividing the duties which leads to more confusion when compared to a Boss with his two flunkies as Under and Consig.

[JohnnyS]

Makes sense because Madonna was under indictment and in prison. He may have had the title but Crea was the one running things.

[Wiseguy]

To be fair, gangland reported that Crea and Cefalu replaced Amuso and Gotti.

It was funny because one individual (who shall remain nameless, not even sure if he posts anymore) at the time said: "Been saying that for years, this is common knowledge, what Capeci is saying is not new information." Then two years later Capeci issues a correction stating it's still Amuso and Gotti. Same poster responds verbatim that he's been now saying THAT for years and what Capeci is revealing is nothing new. It should have been annoying to me but I kinda found it adorable.

Anyway, that was Capeci's bad.

Looking at that excerpt- it's a great example- I'd argue it's probably true but how things look from an operational viewpoint is different than organizational and at the end of the day, the Boss, Acting Boss and Underboss are what they are. They can function however they want but those titles don't change and unless a formal process is underwent, these positions don't become gray. It just appears that way to outsiders.

The Sopranos made "front bosses" popular, Silvio's line "We got a new lightning rod to take the hits" sounds nifty in theory, but in practice that would be very dangerous. IRL, once Junior was made boss that would have been it. Sack would have been in violation for deferring to Tony had Junior discovered it and went to NY to complain. He also could have been allowed to have all of Tony's crew shelved and demoted Tony and he wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. What's Tony going to do, call NY in and say: "I made Junior the boss but he's not really the boss?" That wouldn't fly in a mafia court because the boss is the boss.... And honestly, who would want to be a "front boss?" It's more likely you have an administration of leaders dividing the duties which leads to more confusion when compared to a Boss with his two flunkies as Under and Consig.

Obviously Capeci can only report what his sources tell him. Sometimes they will conflict and I give him credit for correcting himself when needed (which is rare).

As for Amuso, we also had an FBI agent testify in open court that Amuso was still the boss.

[stubbs]

Likely the reason behind the confusion years ago over whether Crea or Amuso was the official boss

If you're referring to the confusion on the forums, that was simply the result of people assuming it wasn't possible for Amuso to remain boss while doing a life sentence.

Anyway, it seems Pennisi was saying that, even though Madonna was acting boss and Crea was underboss, they looked at Crea as the guy really running things on the street rather than Madonna. Doesn't seem to really be a commentary on whether Amuso was still recognized as the official boss, which he was.

To be fair, gangland reported that Crea and Cefalu replaced Amuso and Gotti.

It was funny because one individual (who shall remain nameless, not even sure if he posts anymore) at the time said: "Been saying that for years, this is common knowledge, what Capeci is saying is not new information." Then two years later Capeci issues a correction stating it's still Amuso and Gotti. Same poster responds verbatim that he's been now saying THAT for years and what Capeci is revealing is nothing new. It should have been annoying to me but I kinda found it adorable.

Anyway, that was Capeci's bad.

Looking at that excerpt- it's a great example- I'd argue it's probably true but how things look from an operational viewpoint is different than organizational and at the end of the day, the Boss, Acting Boss and Underboss are what they are. They can function however they want but those titles don't change and unless a formal process is underwent, these positions don't become gray. It just appears that way to outsiders.

The Sopranos made "front bosses" popular, Silvio's line "We got a new lightning rod to take the hits" sounds nifty in theory, but in practice that would be very dangerous. IRL, once Junior was made boss that would have been it. Sack would have been in violation for deferring to Tony had Junior discovered it and went to NY to complain. He also could have been allowed to have all of Tony's crew shelved and demoted Tony and he wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. What's Tony going to do, call NY in and say: "I made Junior the boss but he's not really the boss?" That wouldn't fly in a mafia court because the boss is the boss.... And honestly, who would want to be a "front boss?" It's more likely you have an administration of leaders dividing the duties which leads to more confusion when compared to a Boss with his two flunkies as Under and Consig.

Lmao, saying “I found it adorable” is such a devastating, underrated insult.

Anyway, Junior knew he was the front boss and went along with it, right? Like Junior alluded to it later to Tony that he knew he was boss to take heat away from Tony.

And the reason why a front boss works is because everyone knows where the real power is. Junior, by the time he became skipper, had all his power wiped out in the war in season one and knew Tony had all of the power.

So if Junior tries to make a move to remove Tony’s captains, Tony has all of the power in the streets and it can lead to another war. Not to mention, Junior can still be killed since all of the family’s hitters are likely under Tony. Junior has Bobby Bacala and...um...?

It may be worth it to be a front boss if your pockets are getting filled and everyone treats you with respect. Sick back as an old man and get free money and all of the perks, without having to involve yourself too much in mob politics.

[CabriniGreen]

Likely the reason behind the confusion years ago over whether Crea or Amuso was the official boss

If you're referring to the confusion on the forums, that was simply the result of people assuming it wasn't possible for Amuso to remain boss while doing a life sentence.

Anyway, it seems Pennisi was saying that, even though Madonna was acting boss and Crea was underboss, they looked at Crea as the guy really running things on the street rather than Madonna. Doesn't seem to really be a commentary on whether Amuso was still recognized as the official boss, which he was.

To be fair, gangland reported that Crea and Cefalu replaced Amuso and Gotti.

It was funny because one individual (who shall remain nameless, not even sure if he posts anymore) at the time said: "Been saying that for years, this is common knowledge, what Capeci is saying is not new information." Then two years later Capeci issues a correction stating it's still Amuso and Gotti. Same poster responds verbatim that he's been now saying THAT for years and what Capeci is revealing is nothing new. It should have been annoying to me but I kinda found it adorable.

Anyway, that was Capeci's bad.

Looking at that excerpt- it's a great example- I'd argue it's probably true but how things look from an operational viewpoint is different than organizational and at the end of the day, the Boss, Acting Boss and Underboss are what they are. They can function however they want but those titles don't change and unless a formal process is underwent, these positions don't become gray. It just appears that way to outsiders.

The Sopranos made "front bosses" popular, Silvio's line "We got a new lightning rod to take the hits" sounds nifty in theory, but in practice that would be very dangerous. IRL, once Junior was made boss that would have been it. Sack would have been in violation for deferring to Tony had Junior discovered it and went to NY to complain. He also could have been allowed to have all of Tony's crew shelved and demoted Tony and he wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. What's Tony going to do, call NY in and say: "I made Junior the boss but he's not really the boss?" That wouldn't fly in a mafia court because the boss is the boss.... And honestly, who would want to be a "front boss?" It's more likely you have an administration of leaders dividing the duties which leads to more confusion when compared to a Boss with his two flunkies as Under and Consig.

Lmao, saying “I found it adorable” is such a devastating, underrated insult.

Anyway, Junior knew he was the front boss and went along with it, right? Like Junior alluded to it later to Tony that he knew he was boss to take heat away from Tony.

And the reason why a front boss works is because everyone knows where the real power is. Junior, by the time he became skipper, had all his power wiped out in the war in season one and knew Tony had all of the power.

So if Junior tries to make a move to remove Tony’s captains, Tony has all of the power in the streets and it can lead to another war. Not to mention, Junior can still be killed since all of the family’s hitters are likely under Tony. Junior has Bobby Bacala and...um...?

It may be worth it to be a front boss if your pockets are getting filled and everyone treats you with respect. Sick back as an old man and get free money and all of the perks, without having to involve yourself too much in mob politics.

Sopranos isnt a good example I think..... remember in the show what the Feds said, " that your nephew was and is, he defacto controls your capos with the BACKING of two of the NY families speaking through their emmisary John, "blah blah......

It's all politics really...

[CabriniGreen]

My only point being in the show, Tony was only able to pull that move BECAUSE he had backing from NY...

But it's just a show....

[Angelo Santino]

To be fair, gangland reported that Crea and Cefalu replaced Amuso and Gotti.

It was funny because one individual (who shall remain nameless, not even sure if he posts anymore) at the time said: "Been saying that for years, this is common knowledge, what Capeci is saying is not new information." Then two years later Capeci issues a correction stating it's still Amuso and Gotti. Same poster responds verbatim that he's been now saying THAT for years and what Capeci is revealing is nothing new. It should have been annoying to me but I kinda found it adorable.

Anyway, that was Capeci's bad.

Looking at that excerpt- it's a great example- I'd argue it's probably true but how things look from an operational viewpoint is different than organizational and at the end of the day, the Boss, Acting Boss and Underboss are what they are. They can function however they want but those titles don't change and unless a formal process is underwent, these positions don't become gray. It just appears that way to outsiders.

The Sopranos made "front bosses" popular, Silvio's line "We got a new lightning rod to take the hits" sounds nifty in theory, but in practice that would be very dangerous. IRL, once Junior was made boss that would have been it. Sack would have been in violation for deferring to Tony had Junior discovered it and went to NY to complain. He also could have been allowed to have all of Tony's crew shelved and demoted Tony and he wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. What's Tony going to do, call NY in and say: "I made Junior the boss but he's not really the boss?" That wouldn't fly in a mafia court because the boss is the boss.... And honestly, who would want to be a "front boss?" It's more likely you have an administration of leaders dividing the duties which leads to more confusion when compared to a Boss with his two flunkies as Under and Consig.

Obviously Capeci can only report what his sources tell him. Sometimes they will conflict and I give him credit for correcting himself when needed (which is rare).

As for Amuso, we also had an FBI agent testify in open court that Amuso was still the boss.

Yes, and for two years people believed Crea was the new boss until Capeci corrected it. Prior to that Capeci first reporting it, you had people gung ho for Crea "probably" being boss and then Capeci seemed to give merit to their beliefs and a bunch of people patted themselves on the back for being right. They had two years to enjoy it.

Reg. the Sopranos expample, I'm not debating what the characters knew or didn't, I'm stating that Front Bosses aren't recognized in the real life Mafia and used the fictional Sopranos S1 storyline as an example. An underboss could control all the capos and have their backing to take over but until he's official boss he's not. Fratianno got in trouble for "misrepresenting" himself when he went around the country introducing himself as Acting Boss and not Acting Under.

But let's look at the situation- Acting Boss Louis Dragna worked at his store and kept the seat warm for Brooklier, Acting Underboss Fratianno was making new members, going across the country and meeting bosses, helping Cleveland, meeting with Sinatra, etc etc. Certainly Fratianno was the "real power" in 1975-1976 in LA right? I'd say so. Don't matter, nothing can change the fact that he wasn't Acting Boss. To us he more or less was, to them he clearly was not.

[IrishDave]

Makes sense because Madonna was under indictment and in prison. He may have had the title but Crea was the one running things.

With in the family, is the Acting Boss less powerful then the offical Underboss? I forget the source (Marry Farrell?) When Jerry Cantena put Tommy Ryan in his place starting that he, Cantena, was offical and that Ryan was only acting boss for Vito. Maybe a similar situation?

[johnny_scootch]

I dont see where Crea was indanger, am I missing something

If Crea refused to relinquish power the Brooklyn guys had the ok to kill him and several other Bronx guys.

Yes, and for two years people believed Crea was the new boss until Capeci corrected it. Prior to that Capeci first reporting it, you had people gung ho for Crea "probably" being boss and then Capeci seemed to give merit to their beliefs and a bunch of people patted themselves on the back for being right. They had two years to enjoy it.

People such as myself were gung ho about Steve being the boss because from the street point of view he was. It's the reason Capeci's sources got it wrong initially.

[johnny_scootch]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.