Patrickgold wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:52 pmIf you don’t think a report from the CCC that was put together by Wayne Johnson is relevant than I don’t know what to tell you. Not only are many of those Outfit members still alive, many of them are considered to be still active with some in the top administration. Also, there has been Outfit members/associates since the report that have been arrested for drug related offenses that were not even mentioned in the book. I don’t think anybody is saying that the Outfit has taken the Sinaloa connection but to think they are not involved in the narcotics business is blindness
How is a 23 year old report relevant to today? How does a passing statement in that report somehow validate what you've said about the Outfit's current involvement with drugs and gangs? This isn't about Johnson's credibility but the fact the report is outdated and you having to grasp at straws like this is just pathetic. Hey, maybe you can find a report by Elliot Ness from the 1920's that tells us about the Outfit's current involvement in the booze racket.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:02 pm
I see you are totally dodging my questions again. And you are incorrect. The FBI had member informants in the Outfit long before Calabrese flipped.
Pogo
Sorry, it’s hard to answer 3 people at the same time and keep track of it. Did the CCC give the definition of member in its report? No. Did it say a member had to prick his finger and burn a holy card? No. Did it even use the term Made member? No.
I am 99% sure you are dead wrong. The report from memory said 70 MADE MEMBERS. That really stood out to me. I can't find the "whole" report anymore. Since you are so in love with that 23 year old report from the CCC, if you have it, then post the whole thing, go ahead....
Patrickgold I hope you are not a grown man.... if you are you should take a break from these forums and work on yourself. Get out of your mothers basement would be a great start. Jesus this website is a wealth of information it’s a shame that they allow idiotic fan boys to ruin it. What rational adult roots for a criminal organization? Just laugh out f’ng loud.. dorks...
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:02 pm
I see you are totally dodging my questions again. And you are incorrect. The FBI had member informants in the Outfit long before Calabrese flipped.
Pogo
Sorry, it’s hard to answer 3 people at the same time and keep track of it. Did the CCC give the definition of member in its report? No. Did it say a member had to prick his finger and burn a holy card? No. Did it even use the term Made member? No.
I am 99% sure you are dead wrong. The report from memory said 70 MADE MEMBERS. That really stood out to me. I can't find the "whole" report anymore. Since you are so in love with that 23 year old report from the CCC, if you have it, then post the whole thing, go ahead....
Yeah and it is hilarious to see him twist and turn to try to rationalize the reports rediculously inflated figure of 70 members and 700-1200 associates.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:02 pm
I see you are totally dodging my questions again. And you are incorrect. The FBI had member informants in the Outfit long before Calabrese flipped.
Pogo
Sorry, it’s hard to answer 3 people at the same time and keep track of it. Did the CCC give the definition of member in its report? No. Did it say a member had to prick his finger and burn a holy card? No. Did it even use the term Made member? No.
I am 99% sure you are dead wrong. The report from memory said 70 MADE MEMBERS. That really stood out to me. I can't find the "whole" report anymore. Since you are so in love with that 23 year old report from the CCC, if you have it, then post the whole thing, go ahead....
Yeah and it is hilarious to see him twist and turn to try to rationalize the reports rediculously inflated figure of 70 members and 700-1200 associates.
Pogo
You want to know what’s even funnier. Is that you and your cronies think you have more credibility than the CCC and Wayne Johnson who basically wrote that report. That’s hilarious. I told you what their rational was when they wrote it. If you don’t believe it, then keep going at it with your lame narrative. Even if Wayne Johnson did say there was 70 inducted made members, which he didn’t, then I would still take his word over a person who gets all his info from google. What’s even more hilarious is that you and your cronies are creating fake names to attack me. Talk about not having a life. I’ll tell you what. I have the report somewhere in my house. I’m currently out of town for work, but when I do get back, I will dig it up and take screen shots of what EXACTLY it says
There you go again saying it is my word vs. Wayne Johnson. Sorry it is the word of the FBI which is of course a far more accurate and credible source but they don't say want you want to believe.
And you didn't explain anyone's rationale you. You are just making things up. Where did the FBI say their Outfit associate figure "means hardcore associates that are members of a crew and answer to someone"? That's right they never did.
I haven't read the full CCC report but did it say actually say "anyone that knowingly does business with the Outfit" or did you make it up?
they said each member has an estimate of 10 associates.
So where did the extra 500 in the estimate come from?
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
At the last estimate, there are about seventy 'made' members of the Chicago Outfit.3 The term 'made' comes from La Cosa Nostra terminology and requires a blood ritual. Italian bloodlines, sponsorship and support of high-ranking members in a complicated process. These rituals are not known to exist in Chicago as they do on the East Coast, yet the term 'made' has been referred to in debriefings of federal informants
So they are using the same definition of members as everyone else. Looking at the 28 member figure from 2005 and adding in the members that died from 1998-2005 we get to a figure of about 45 members for 1997. A much more realistic number than the 70 figure from the report.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:01 am
Thanks for posting the report.
At the last estimate, there are about seventy 'made' members of the Chicago Outfit.3 The term 'made' comes from La Cosa Nostra terminology and requires a blood ritual. Italian bloodlines, sponsorship and support of high-ranking members in a complicated process. These rituals are not known to exist in Chicago as they do on the East Coast, yet the term 'made' has been referred to in debriefings of federal informants
So they are using the same definition of members as everyone else. Looking at the 28 member figure from 2005 and adding in the members that died from 1998-2005 we get to a figure of about 45 members for 1997. A much more realistic number than the 70 figure from the report.
Pogo
I also remember Little Al on the RD forum talking about how the FBI released a list of 47 Outfit members to the media in 1999.
There were also three different FBI reports from the 1980s that cited 46, 42 and 51 members.
So, if anything, the CCC reports from 1990 (66 members) or 1997 (70 members) have always been outliers by comparison.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:13 am
There you go again saying it is my word vs. Wayne Johnson. Sorry it is the word of the FBI which is of course a far more accurate and credible source but they don't say want you want to believe.
And you didn't explain anyone's rationale you. You are just making things up. Where did the FBI say their Outfit associate figure "means hardcore associates that are members of a crew and answer to someone"? That's right they never did.
I haven't read the full CCC report but did it say actually say "anyone that knowingly does business with the Outfit" or did you make it up?
they said each member has an estimate of 10 associates.
So where did the extra 500 in the estimate come from?
Pogo
As I already mentioned 20 times before, the CCC gives their rational for the associate count in the report. I know it’s hard for you to comprehend that because it goes against your narrative. As for the FBI definition of an associate, why don’t you post it instead of talking out of your ass? What is the FBI definition of an LCN associate?
So in other words you can't point to where the Feds said their associate figure "means hardcore associates that are members of a crew and answer to someone" and simply made it up like you usually do. The report also makes no mention that they reached their 700-1200 associate figure by 10 associates for every member (which wouldn't account for the extra 500 in the estimate). So you made that up as well.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:23 pm
So in other words you can't point to where the Feds said their associate figure "means hardcore associates that are members of a crew and answer to someone" and simply made it up like you usually do. The report also makes no mention that they reached their 700-1200 associate figure by 10 associates for every member (which wouldn't account for the extra 500 in the estimate). So you made that up as well.
Pogo
I already know the FBI rational of what an associate is. It’s a non made member that works for a crew. I figured you would too considering you live and breath FBI reports but I guess if you cant google it, it’s too confusing for you. The CCC report does talk about its rational for the associate number and I am positive about that bc I actually have the report. As I said, I will post when i get back.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:23 pm
So in other words you can't point to where the Feds said their associate figure "means hardcore associates that are members of a crew and answer to someone" and simply made it up like you usually do. The report also makes no mention that they reached their 700-1200 associate figure by 10 associates for every member (which wouldn't account for the extra 500 in the estimate). So you made that up as well.
Pogo
I already know the FBI rational of what an associate is. It’s a non made member that works for a crew. I figured you would too considering you live and breath FBI reports but I guess if you cant google it, it’s too confusing for you. The CCC report does talk about its rational for the associate number and I am positive about that bc I actually have the report. As I said, I will post when i get back.
The FB.I.'s definition of an "Associate" is actually MORE than just people who work in a crew. The definition also includes high level guys like Lefty Rosenthal who were direct with Bosses. Lefty wasn't in Spilotro's "Crew".
The CCC report included people who "Do Business" with the Outfit like bar owners who had Poker machines. That's why the number was so astronomically high. That is a very loose & sloppy definition of the term "Associate" & in direct conflict with the Feds definition. For example, If the Genovese Family in New York had 250 made guys in 1997, then the estimate of "Associates on Record" was about 1,000. See the difference? So, if they were loose & sloppy about those numbers, then they were also loose & sloppy about other things like drugs.
Anyway, why are you wasting your time arguing about a report 23 years ago that has direct inconsistencies with the Feds, besides it being old? What is your point? I remember that report & it had a lot of generalizations in it & some theories with no documented support. Go ahead & post it but seriously, nobody cares except you.....
To give an idea about the FBI's "member to associate ratio:"
A 1992 breakdown of the Melrose Park crew showed 48 members and associates of that crew, with at least 5 of them being made members (Carlisi, Marcello, Zizzo, Chiaramonti, Tornabene). That's roughly ten associates for every made member. Not to say that all of the crews had this same ratio but it provides a good sampling.
