Chicago Outfit Soldier Sentenced

[Pete]

As we know, the 44 kilos of "a substance containing cocaine" was simply a very juicy target law enforcement successfully dangled in front of the crew. Obviously 44 actual kilos of cocaine was never obtained from this target or distributed by the crew afterward. They just as well may have tried to hit a stash house that had 4 kilos, or 100 kilos, and isn't necessarily indicative of the amount of drugs they stole and distributed, either directly themselves or indirectly through the gangs that tipped them off in the first place.

Authorities said the crew hit five or six stash houses a year. But from what I can tell, this was a relatively new operation of the crew; going on for maybe five years. These guys have a long criminal history and I haven't seen robbing drug stash houses or deep involvement in drugs going further back. What you do see in the past is these guys doing rather sophisticated home invasion robberies with tips from insurance brokers and other sources. The stash houses and tips from street gangs were simply a newer twist on what these guys do.

And for the record, while the LCN as a whole has been marginalized in the drug trade, whatever involvement Chicago has is trivial compared to New York. Not even the same ballpark.

Agreed. There has been small busts here and there over the years but it would very implausible to say the outfit was ever deep in drugs. Certainly no one ever on a Madonna like level moving massive amounts of heroin. Also keep in mind hitting a stash house is usually a big score for cash as well as drugs. This also goes with my theory the outfit is a much more loosely connected group If criminals with no hard rules coming from the top. I believe the crews most likely operate somewhat independently with no “top boss” dictating policy. These are just my theories based on lack of Rico indictments etc. I should clarify the 3 crews probably have a boss of their crew but I don’t believe certain articles saying there’s a boss underboss consigliere 5 capos some of them from crews that haven’t existed for years etc. to me it looks like Cleveland all over again. Look at their ages based on ages of made guys we know they could be down to 5 or so made guys within 5 years or less. A majority are in their 80’s they could go any day. Unless of course they are secretly making members and rebuilding

[Confederate]

As we know, the 44 kilos of "a substance containing cocaine" was simply a very juicy target law enforcement successfully dangled in front of the crew. Obviously 44 actual kilos of cocaine was never obtained from this target or distributed by the crew afterward. They just as well may have tried to hit a stash house that had 4 kilos, or 100 kilos, and isn't necessarily indicative of the amount of drugs they stole and distributed, either directly themselves or indirectly through the gangs that tipped them off in the first place.

Authorities said the crew hit five or six stash houses a year. But from what I can tell, this was a relatively new operation of the crew; going on for maybe five years. These guys have a long criminal history and I haven't seen robbing drug stash houses or deep involvement in drugs going further back. What you do see in the past is these guys doing rather sophisticated home invasion robberies with tips from insurance brokers and other sources. The stash houses and tips from street gangs were simply a newer twist on what these guys do.

And for the record, while the LCN as a whole has been marginalized in the drug trade, whatever involvement Chicago has is trivial compared to New York. Not even the same ballpark.

Agreed. There has been small busts here and there over the years but it would very implausible to say the outfit was ever deep in drugs. Certainly no one ever on a Madonna like level moving massive amounts of heroin. Also keep in mind hitting a stash house is usually a big score for cash as well as drugs. This also goes with my theory the outfit is a much more loosely connected group If criminals with no hard rules coming from the top. I believe the crews most likely operate somewhat independently with no “top boss” dictating policy. These are just my theories based on lack of Rico indictments etc. I should clarify the 3 crews probably have a boss of their crew but I don’t believe certain articles saying there’s a boss underboss consigliere 5 capos some of them from crews that haven’t existed for years etc. to me it looks like Cleveland all over again. Look at their ages based on ages of made guys we know they could be down to 5 or so made guys within 5 years or less. A majority are in their 80’s they could go any day. Unless of course they are secretly making members and rebuilding

Agreed 100%. If we want to go with 3 Crews they would be: Grand Avenue, Cicero & 26th St. If we want to go with 2 crews, then eliminate 26th St. & figure a few of those guys are under Cicero? Not sure if it's 2 Crews or 3? Anyway, each crew has a Boss & probably an underboss & they do their own thing. This idea of a big Outfit hierarchy over everybody like the old days is most probably non existent. the 2 or 3 small crews being decentralized is much more realistic. There is no evidence of anything else accept Scott B.'s theory that Chicago has to be structured exactly like one of the other Families which I don't believe for one second. First of all, Chicago never even had a "Consigliere". That is an "invented title" by book authors. Did the Outfit have High level Advisors? Yes.

[Pete]

As we know, the 44 kilos of "a substance containing cocaine" was simply a very juicy target law enforcement successfully dangled in front of the crew. Obviously 44 actual kilos of cocaine was never obtained from this target or distributed by the crew afterward. They just as well may have tried to hit a stash house that had 4 kilos, or 100 kilos, and isn't necessarily indicative of the amount of drugs they stole and distributed, either directly themselves or indirectly through the gangs that tipped them off in the first place.

Authorities said the crew hit five or six stash houses a year. But from what I can tell, this was a relatively new operation of the crew; going on for maybe five years. These guys have a long criminal history and I haven't seen robbing drug stash houses or deep involvement in drugs going further back. What you do see in the past is these guys doing rather sophisticated home invasion robberies with tips from insurance brokers and other sources. The stash houses and tips from street gangs were simply a newer twist on what these guys do.

And for the record, while the LCN as a whole has been marginalized in the drug trade, whatever involvement Chicago has is trivial compared to New York. Not even the same ballpark.

Agreed. There has been small busts here and there over the years but it would very implausible to say the outfit was ever deep in drugs. Certainly no one ever on a Madonna like level moving massive amounts of heroin. Also keep in mind hitting a stash house is usually a big score for cash as well as drugs. This also goes with my theory the outfit is a much more loosely connected group If criminals with no hard rules coming from the top. I believe the crews most likely operate somewhat independently with no “top boss” dictating policy. These are just my theories based on lack of Rico indictments etc. I should clarify the 3 crews probably have a boss of their crew but I don’t believe certain articles saying there’s a boss underboss consigliere 5 capos some of them from crews that haven’t existed for years etc. to me it looks like Cleveland all over again. Look at their ages based on ages of made guys we know they could be down to 5 or so made guys within 5 years or less. A majority are in their 80’s they could go any day. Unless of course they are secretly making members and rebuilding

Agreed 100%. If we want to go with 3 Crews they would be: Grand Avenue, Cicero & 26th St. If we want to go with 2 crews, then eliminate 26th St. & figure a few of those guys are under Cicero? Not sure if it's 2 Crews or 3? Anyway, each crew has a Boss & probably an underboss & they do their own thing. This idea of a big Outfit hierarchy over everybody like the old days is most probably non existent. the 2 or 3 small crews being decentralized is much more realistic. There is no evidence of anything else accept Scott B.'s theory that Chicago has to be structured exactly like one of the other Families which I don't believe for one second. First of all, Chicago never even had a "Consigliere". That is an "invented title" by book authors. Did the Outfit have High level Advisors? Yes.

I still think there’s 3 with 26th being the weakest. The Carusos are getting old the neighborhood isn’t the same. It’s amazing to me that some supposed le sources are where the info comes from for these article. If the fbi says they are on fumes how does other le sources say they have a full hierarchy with positions that never existed and capos of crews that have been defunct since the 90’s. Defies logic as I’m just a civilian I doubt I would no more than a real le source. As we’ve said many times they don’t fit in the lcn box. Anyone that mentions Chicago’s consigliere should be immediately discredited in my opinion but hey maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the lake county crew is thriving and Joey a with millions upon millions is the consigliere. Just maybe????? I think mags who is shelved is the youngest confirmed member who’s in his 50’s. Everyone else 70’s to 80’s not hard to see where this is going

[PolackTony]

I'm sure people on the board have seen this already, but John Binders comments to ABC 7 news following DiFronzo's death are interesting in light of the discussion on this thread:

"The outfit is a criminal enterprise, it's still functioning" said John Binder, author of "The Chicago Outfit" book. Binder maintains that the mob has a working relationship with Chicago street gangs. He says the Outfit is "involved in the wholesaling and to some extent importation" of cocaine and heroin that gangs sell on city streets. "Just because it's not the Outfit guys standing on the West Side or South Side selling it doesn't mean they aren't actively involved in making a lot of money off of narcotics themselves."

While this doesn't provide us with proof of anything, I have a hard time believing that Binder is simply talking out of his ass. Certainly in light of Hagedorn's account as well as the Panozzo crew bust, Binder's statement should at least serve to raise some antennas on this. Also, if certain Outfit guys or crews have actually shifted more into drugs in recent years, this doesn't necessarily contradict the claim that they are weak and going down the tunes. If anything, it would be a sign that their traditional rackets have all but dried up, with drugs as one of the few sure money makers for whatever teaming blue collar type elements left today.

[tmarotta]

The problem with John Binder is that he has been using the line that the outfit is selling drugs in the shadows to the street gangs of Chicago for almost 20 years. Yet as the other posters have said no big indictments for drugs involving members of the outfit in that time. The government can take down the Flores brothers some of the biggest drug dealers ever in Chicag,o and Chapo Guzman yet never any links to the outfit and the cartels the largest importers of drugs in Chicago, which I don't think anyone would deny. Perhaps Chicago is just the most successful under the radar drug trafficking organization ever or this whole outfit dealing drugs on the sly is as untrue as Paulie Stripes Demarco being the boss of the Genovese Family.

[PolackTony]

The problem with John Binder is that he has been using the line that the outfit is selling drugs in the shadows to the street gangs of Chicago for almost 20 years. Yet as the other posters have said no big indictments for drugs involving members of the outfit in that time. The government can take down the Flores brothers some of the biggest drug dealers ever in Chicag,o and Chapo Guzman yet never any links to the outfit and the cartels the largest importers of drugs in Chicago, which I don't think anyone would deny. Perhaps Chicago is just the most successful under the radar drug trafficking organization ever or this whole outfit dealing drugs on the sly is as untrue as Paulie Stripes Demarco being the boss of the Genovese Family.

Thanks for the response. I think those are fair points. Do people here think that Binder is basing his statements on info from say contacts in LE, or most likely repeating a long held personal opinion of his?

[Wiseguy]

The problem with John Binder is that he has been using the line that the outfit is selling drugs in the shadows to the street gangs of Chicago for almost 20 years. Yet as the other posters have said no big indictments for drugs involving members of the outfit in that time. The government can take down the Flores brothers some of the biggest drug dealers ever in Chicag,o and Chapo Guzman yet never any links to the outfit and the cartels the largest importers of drugs in Chicago, which I don't think anyone would deny. Perhaps Chicago is just the most successful under the radar drug trafficking organization ever or this whole outfit dealing drugs on the sly is as untrue as Paulie Stripes Demarco being the boss of the Genovese Family.

Yup. That's gotta be it.

Thanks for the response. I think those are fair points. Do people here think that Binder is basing his statements on info from say contacts in LE, or most likely repeating a long held personal opinion of his?

I couldn't venture to guess where Binder got this idea. But you don't see much evidence for Outfit involvement to this degree in the drug trade, either in mob cases or comments by law enforcement agencies.

[Patrickgold]

Anthony Giannone was dealing drugs too. You will hardly ever see high ranking members directly involved. Giachinno had a pill factory out of his dr office. In fact a couple of homicides were linked to it. He was directly linked to the Outfit. Had a bunch of outfit kids dealing these pills

[Confederate]

Anthony Giannone was dealing drugs too. You will hardly ever see high ranking members directly involved. Giachinno had a pill factory out of his dr office. In fact a couple of homicides were linked to it. He was directly linked to the Outfit. Had a bunch of outfit kids dealing these pills

He was a mob connected bookie who plead guilty in 2002 to conspiring to run a large scale marijuana racket with a few other guys.

[PolackTony]

Anthony Giannone was dealing drugs too. You will hardly ever see high ranking members directly involved. Giachinno had a pill factory out of his dr office. In fact a couple of homicides were linked to it. He was directly linked to the Outfit. Had a bunch of outfit kids dealing these pills

He was a mob connected bookie who plead guilty in 2002 to conspiring to run a large scale marijuana racket with a few other guys.

Honest question. Wiseguy has also repeatedly stated that we should discount potential Outfit drug involvement as the cases we have seen have largely involved associates (my reading of his statements, don't intend to mischaracterize). PatrickGold brings up a good point. Should we expect to see known made guys directly involved in drugs, or will they be insulated from direct drug distribution and involved in financing etc? Do we need to see Jimmy I or Christie Spina on camera serving rocks to customers on the corner before we can conclude that the Outfit likely has had some non-marginal involvement in drugs?

[Pete]

Anthony Giannone was dealing drugs too. You will hardly ever see high ranking members directly involved. Giachinno had a pill factory out of his dr office. In fact a couple of homicides were linked to it. He was directly linked to the Outfit. Had a bunch of outfit kids dealing these pills

He was a mob connected bookie who plead guilty in 2002 to conspiring to run a large scale marijuana racket with a few other guys.

Correct giannone is an associate besides the one pot bust he was involved in other recent mob crimes like credit card fraud etc. his bust is hardly proof the outfit is involved in drugs on a large scale. Again are some guys involved? Sure but it’s very low scale. The cartels and street gangs run drugs in Chicago. The black gangs don’t buy drugs from the outfit they buy from the cartel. This should all be fairly common knowledge

[Pete]

Anthony Giannone was dealing drugs too. You will hardly ever see high ranking members directly involved. Giachinno had a pill factory out of his dr office. In fact a couple of homicides were linked to it. He was directly linked to the Outfit. Had a bunch of outfit kids dealing these pills

He was a mob connected bookie who plead guilty in 2002 to conspiring to run a large scale marijuana racket with a few other guys.

Honest question. Wiseguy has also repeatedly stated that we should discount potential Outfit drug involvement as the cases we have seen have largely involved associates (my reading of his statements, don't intend to mischaracterize). PatrickGold brings up a good point. Should we expect to see known made guys directly involved in drugs, or will they be insulated from direct drug distribution and involved in financing etc? Do we need to see Jimmy I or Christie Spina on camera serving rocks to customers on the corner before we can conclude that the Outfit likely has had some non-marginal involvement in drugs?

You most likely won’t see a made member ever with a drug bust. Facts are besides rumors most of the made guys are in their 70’s or 80’s. They might not even make guys anymore. And I say might there has been rumor that guys have been made as recently as sarno but there’s nothing to back that up. Very possible once the old guys die there will be no made guys left. I feel like I’m on an island here but of the outfit is gone in 10 years don’t say there weren’t certain people that saw it coming. If they are making guys who’s doing it? Solly d is not the boss that’s a media creation, is vena the boss? I doubt he’s making anyone he’s so worried about a pinch. Once again my feeling is there is no overall boss based on my research. Anyone that wants to believe the articles posted with obvious inaccuracies be my guest just let me know the new consigliere and boss Of lake county ‍♂️ . The people that know chicago know and it has been backed up by the fbi.

[PolackTony]

Anthony Giannone was dealing drugs too. You will hardly ever see high ranking members directly involved. Giachinno had a pill factory out of his dr office. In fact a couple of homicides were linked to it. He was directly linked to the Outfit. Had a bunch of outfit kids dealing these pills

He was a mob connected bookie who plead guilty in 2002 to conspiring to run a large scale marijuana racket with a few other guys.

Correct giannone is an associate besides the one pot bust he was involved in other recent mob crimes like credit card fraud etc. his bust is hardly proof the outfit is involved in drugs on a large scale. Again are some guys involved? Sure but it’s very low scale. The cartels and street gangs run drugs in Chicago. The black gangs don’t buy drugs from the outfit they buy from the cartel. This should all be fairly common knowledge

Good points. I think there are two separate questions here. I don't see anyone making the claim that the Outfit is "running drugs in Chicago". I think the question of interest is whether drugs make up a non-negligible proportion of the operations of whatever is left of the Outfit today.

[Pete]

Anthony Giannone was dealing drugs too. You will hardly ever see high ranking members directly involved. Giachinno had a pill factory out of his dr office. In fact a couple of homicides were linked to it. He was directly linked to the Outfit. Had a bunch of outfit kids dealing these pills

He was a mob connected bookie who plead guilty in 2002 to conspiring to run a large scale marijuana racket with a few other guys.

Correct giannone is an associate besides the one pot bust he was involved in other recent mob crimes like credit card fraud etc. his bust is hardly proof the outfit is involved in drugs on a large scale. Again are some guys involved? Sure but it’s very low scale. The cartels and street gangs run drugs in Chicago. The black gangs don’t buy drugs from the outfit they buy from the cartel. This should all be fairly common knowledge

Good points. I think there are two separate questions here. I don't see anyone making the claim that the Outfit is "running drugs in Chicago". I think the question of interest is whether drugs make up a non-negligible proportion of the operations of whatever is left of the Outfit today.

The answer to that is yes but not made members they are old and don’t want a drug beef

[Patrickgold]

The old members don’t know the drug business very well so I doubt they would have a career change in the twilight of their death. With that being said, the younger associates seem to be involved in more ways than one.