The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

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Angelo Santino
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The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by Angelo Santino »

Just some random thoughts.

Watching Natale and Culotta, it's impossible not to take away that they've likely, since the year 2010 if not by 2000, were keeping up with the "mafia non-fiction" genre of books, forums etc. Makes sense, they're human and its no different than former athletes being "involved" in the genre in some inactive capacity.

The problem with this, is it taints their information when they start adding online sources into their ideas or beliefs. Imagine for example, Natale's in prison post-sentencing for the 1999 trial and he reads some books or has internet access to sites on Chicago. He would have read somewhere that it was "the Greaseballs against the Americans" which you commonly hear applied to 1920's Chicago. I imagine Natale's story with DiTrullo is true and that he likely told Natale he spent some time in Chicago. Natale, using his newfound book knowledge, used it to try and catapult himself into being even larger. Such as his story of Bruno and the Piccolos coming over together from Italy to assist the Greaseballs in fighting the Americans, they eventually recruited him in their efforts because "he killed more people than cancer." You can tell he's trying to pass off a lie and muddled the story up. To be fair, there was the so-called "Greaser Gang" group in Philly papers but it was a misunderstanding that someone in the underworld at the stature he claims he was would be able to draw a distinction. Antiliar suggested it could be a case of his imagination combined with his own amnesia which may be true. But Natale was always a well-known liar and it's harder to get away with lies today than it was back in 1995 and earlier as anyone can pull out an iphone and fact check, such as his knowing Capone despite being 12 when capone died. These are things people back in the 80's must have raised eyebrows at but without the ability to quickly pull up dates online I don't think anyone would go to the library to do research in between being a career criminal.

Frank Culotta, he's another one who strikes me as well read about the Outfit and has used it to build his own knowledge and use it to inflate himself. What he says today is very different than the information he provided to the FBI. I tend to believe their FBI versions as they were under pressure to tell the truth unlike now where he can claim he was secretly made a member by Spilotro. That's something you wouldn't neglect to tell the FBI. Same goes for Natale rattling off being made by Gambino-Bruno with a straight face. It's an amazing interview, it should have been "To Catch A Con Man," to see him look so candidly as he lies. It's a eye-opener as to who excels in that world.

Now the problem is, whenever someone from that world comes online, they can develop a group of individuals who keep them up to tab on things, youtube-related, information related to their former affiliation. I'm guilty of it too, I've made connections to certain people that if they asked me something I'd provide them information almost unfiltered. What happens when someone takes that information and uses it to come off as more knowledgeable than they actually are? They may have flipped, they never stopped being liars. They could be Giacomo Vicari on fucking steroids.

(I was speaking to someone today and somethings didn't sound right so I pulled an Angelo Molisani and... it's sad. But it is a problem now. Like Soliai making contact with Dominick Montiglio who sends him a pic of his dead uncle which turns out to be Chuckie English of Chicago, I mean how do you get that wrong, lol? Time was we had to worry about people pretending to be mobsters, now we got to worry about mobsters pretending to know more than they actually do. Can anyone imagine early 2000's Picasso here today? It's been a long and weary road since he once told me to stick my assertions up my ass and that he had dinner with John Stanfa and I didn't. "Yeah, Ok Steve." Banned. :lol:

In a way you can't blame them. They didn't join the mob to become historians and had they paid attention to and asked for clarification on every change of rank or murders while they were on the street back then it would have raised eyes brows as they would have come off like Jimmy Altieri after he flipped in S1... I just wish I could speak to them before they latch onto certain narratives- "Scarfo was The Terminator," "Gotti was too flamboyant," "Joey Merlino's a young punk." I'd rather hear their experience/word before the external noises taints it with the narrative. How many informants post-1970's maybe never asked someone point blank about it and just assumed Galante was the boss, then after all the articles, books, movies that informant would just lodge it into his mind as fact that Galante was the official boss.

For the Genuine Members Club, living guy's who's stories don't seem to evolve over time remain- Caramandi, DiLeonardo, Gravano.
Those with evolving stories- Culotta, Franzese, Natale, Pistone (I'll include him).
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by mafiastudent »

Good post.
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aleksandrored
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by aleksandrored »

Great post, which made me doubt: do active mobsters today follow books and forums? Or did even want to be a mobster for reading about some famous bandits like Capone?
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Angelo Santino
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by Angelo Santino »

I'm not sure about active members, I'm sure some do. If it is to be believed, Ralph DeLeo used to post as Genna on RD. I was referring to established informants. People who are committed and wish to capitalized on their stories for profit. Some resort to embellishment because outside of the 200 or so of us no one would know the difference and just eat it up.

As a researcher, I've spoken to several informants and a few retired members. And I don't know, it's like those that just want to sprout shit are full of it, meanwhile those that are reserved about it are more genuine. I think of it as they've come from a background of lying and double cross and then changing course and stating to an outsider "so and so was a caporegime" must hit them internally. They were once a part of things, now they're clarifying things up for a some online nerds. "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know" type of thing... Meanwhile I'm sure there are those who'll say "fuck it, I'll say what I can to make a buck." Same logic that steers Franzese to calling himself the future Underboss to Allie in waiting if he hadn't flipped despite never stating that to law enforcement nor in his first or second book, only recently. Helluva thing to forget.

When it comes to informant or rats and well, I've met a few in person and they're nobody to fuck with. Regular people have a disagreement they get up and leave, these guys will bust a bottle against your head on second nature, some. People can talk shit about a Gravano, Gallo or Alite on here but if you met them on a dark alley would you share with them what you really think? Probably not. "Rats" can be seen as weaklings, or as people who "found the light" or as people who were always loyal to themselves and survived however they could. In essence, rats may be the most psychotic of the bunch, they aren't binded to the oath in many cases. I'd put Gravano in that category.

With Joe Bonanno, Joe Valachi, Jimmy Fratianno there was no established market in which to lie in. Things in the 60's-80's were still quite controversial. They had no reasons or grounds to lie because the info wasn't profitable. But now??? Fuck, what I wouldn't pay to interview Joe Bananas, and I can't be the only asshole who would. But take a guy like Fratianno, that guy would have a fucking field day with YT if he were alive. He'd make a video on big of a pussy Pete Milano was. So there's value in things they say. But it's not Godfather- esque, it's a bias interpretation.
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by Pogo The Clown »

Interesting perspective. I think it is the opposite. The guys today have to lie or inflate because there so little profit to be made from their stories that they have to overcompensate to try to draw an audience. Guys like Bonanno, Valachi, Frattiano, Hill, Gravano, etc got major publishing deals and books that became best sellers, interviews with major networks, movie deals, etc. Today nobody cares about the mob outside of a dwindling niche audience which is why these guys are relegated to podcasts for nickels and dimes. Natale was able to get a book deal but his book probably sold peanuts. I doubt he made much from it.


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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by TallGuy19 »

aleksandrored wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:32 pm Great post, which made me doubt: do active mobsters today follow books and forums? Or did even want to be a mobster for reading about some famous bandits like Capone?
There was a Colombo associate arrested recently (I can't remember his name) who had a book on the history of Cosa Nostra in his car.
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by Pete »

Pogo The Clown wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:52 pm Interesting perspective. I think it is the opposite. The guys today have to lie or inflate because there so little profit to be made from their stories that they have to overcompensate to try to draw an audience. Guys like Bonanno, Valachi, Frattiano, Hill, Gravano, etc got major publishing deals and books that became best sellers, interviews with major networks, movie deals, etc. Today nobody cares about the mob outside of a dwindling niche audience which is why these guys are relegated to podcasts for nickels and dimes. Natale was able to get a book deal but his book probably sold peanuts. I doubt he made much from it.


Pogo
I think Natale would have had better luck if he told the truth. I was one of the people that maybe would have got his book but changed my mind when I heard his new story about being made by Bruno when he testified Joey made him. I had no interest after that.
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by Pete »

Chris Christie wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:31 pm I'm not sure about active members, I'm sure some do. If it is to be believed, Ralph DeLeo used to post as Genna on RD. I was referring to established informants. People who are committed and wish to capitalized on their stories for profit. Some resort to embellishment because outside of the 200 or so of us no one would know the difference and just eat it up.

As a researcher, I've spoken to several informants and a few retired members. And I don't know, it's like those that just want to sprout shit are full of it, meanwhile those that are reserved about it are more genuine. I think of it as they've come from a background of lying and double cross and then changing course and stating to an outsider "so and so was a caporegime" must hit them internally. They were once a part of things, now they're clarifying things up for a some online nerds. "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know" type of thing... Meanwhile I'm sure there are those who'll say "fuck it, I'll say what I can to make a buck." Same logic that steers Franzese to calling himself the future Underboss to Allie in waiting if he hadn't flipped despite never stating that to law enforcement nor in his first or second book, only recently. Helluva thing to forget.

When it comes to informant or rats and well, I've met a few in person and they're nobody to fuck with. Regular people have a disagreement they get up and leave, these guys will bust a bottle against your head on second nature, some. People can talk shit about a Gravano, Gallo or Alite on here but if you met them on a dark alley would you share with them what you really think? Probably not. "Rats" can be seen as weaklings, or as people who "found the light" or as people who were always loyal to themselves and survived however they could. In essence, rats may be the most psychotic of the bunch, they aren't binded to the oath in many cases. I'd put Gravano in that category.

With Joe Bonanno, Joe Valachi, Jimmy Fratianno there was no established market in which to lie in. Things in the 60's-80's were still quite controversial. They had no reasons or grounds to lie because the info wasn't profitable. But now??? Fuck, what I wouldn't pay to interview Joe Bananas, and I can't be the only asshole who would. But take a guy like Fratianno, that guy would have a fucking field day with YT if he were alive. He'd make a video on big of a pussy Pete Milano was. So there's value in things they say. But it's not Godfather- esque, it's a bias interpretation.
I get what your saying but you also gotta look at the whole picture. If Milano was such a joke why couldn’t fratianno take over? Granted I think he flipped by then but he talked all that about brooklier. If he was such a joke why couldn’t the weasel take over the family? There’s always some puffing and revisionist history. I will say wiseguy actually turned me on to the last mafioso maybe 10 years ago and he was right. One of my favorite books. But they all have at least some spin to them. Not saying jimmy lies in the book but it’s natural to paint someone a certain way if they don’t like them etc
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by gohnjotti »

TallGuy19 wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:58 pm
aleksandrored wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:32 pm Great post, which made me doubt: do active mobsters today follow books and forums? Or did even want to be a mobster for reading about some famous bandits like Capone?
There was a Colombo associate arrested recently (I can't remember his name) who had a book on the history of Cosa Nostra in his car.
Colombo soldier Thomas Scorcia.
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by Angelo Santino »

Pete wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:07 pm
I get what your saying but you also gotta look at the whole picture. If Milano was such a joke why couldn’t fratianno take over? Granted I think he flipped by then but he talked all that about brooklier. If he was such a joke why couldn’t the weasel take over the family? There’s always some puffing and revisionist history. I will say wiseguy actually turned me on to the last mafioso maybe 10 years ago and he was right. One of my favorite books. But they all have at least some spin to them. Not saying jimmy lies in the book but it’s natural to paint someone a certain way if they don’t like them etc
I think there's a misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to parrot Fratianno's story, just saying if he were still alive today he'd likely be on youtube telling stories talking shit. His dislike of Milano, Brooklier and Dragna Jr was biased, no one's on the other side of that issue. But I suspect he was honest about his positions and where he was, again had he lied he would have lost his deal.
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by SantoClaus »

I’d watch Bonanno for sure, when I first saw the clip for his 60 mins interview, in the still shot, I thought the wine glass was a gun.

Who knows what he would say? Canada is all his lol
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by stubbs »

Chris Christie wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:13 pm
For the Genuine Members Club, living guy's who's stories don't seem to evolve over time remain- Caramandi, DiLeonardo, Gravano.
Those with evolving stories- Culotta, Franzese, Natale, Pistone (I'll include him).
Interesting that the people who seem more genuine have given very few interviews, and seem to be kinda hesitant to talk about their past lives.

Whereas the ones who have been inconsistent with their stories are almost professional ex-mafia interviewers. Like they love the attention and need to keep talking about how great they once were. They’re like a bunch of 50 year olds who can’t let go of their high school years.
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by Angelo Santino »

stubbs wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:00 am
Chris Christie wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:13 pm
For the Genuine Members Club, living guy's who's stories don't seem to evolve over time remain- Caramandi, DiLeonardo, Gravano.
Those with evolving stories- Culotta, Franzese, Natale, Pistone (I'll include him).
Interesting that the people who seem more genuine have given very few interviews, and seem to be kinda hesitant to talk about their past lives.

Whereas the ones who have been inconsistent with their stories are almost professional ex-mafia interviewers. Like they love the attention and need to keep talking about how great they once were. They’re like a bunch of 50 year olds who can’t let go of their high school years.
Not only interviews, but information they were legally required to disclose to the FBI at the time of debriefing. To be perceived/discovered as lying would carry serious repercussions (look at Casso), so its in their best interest to be more honest than they've ever been in their life. Had Natale been discovered to be lying about when he was made or Culotta claiming that he himself was made, they would have lost their deals and served long sentences.

Gravano, Caramandi, DiLeonardo, Gravano, Fratianno, Leonetti and Valachi's future interviews/works didn't deviate from what they told the FBI. Maybe some minor things but nothing that changes the overarching narrative. Gravano didn't go from Underboss to Gotti's Accardo between 2000 and 2020, Caramandi didn't go from a Philly guy to being the only guy recognized by NY, etc etc.

Whereas the other guys? Fanzese went from conflicted acting capo to Allie's Underboss In Waiting, Pistone went from an FBI agent assigned to do a job to "I've always looked out for myself, had Sonny said Joe Schmo's gotta go, fuck it, it'd be him or me." But it's all commercialization now.
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

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I'm waiting for 1 of the made turncoats to say I dont know who the fuck John alite is or was we dont take orders from a non Italian non made guy. But not one has yet. Soon I'm getting. There's a dozen Colombos from brooklyn nothing those guys have been quiet except franzese
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Re: The fallacy of today's Online Informants.

Post by Extortion »

aleksandrored wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:32 pm Great post, which made me doubt: do active mobsters today follow books and forums? Or did even want to be a mobster for reading about some famous bandits like Capone?
Yes, some and if not all read the books. Remember whitey bulgers apartment? Also, when I talked to a street guy (independent but grew up in bensonhurst in the 90s) he says they all know the history from the books. As for being influenced im sure that happens to. Nowadays its godfather goodfellas and sopranos
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