Chicago Outfit Soldier Sentenced

[PolackTony]

Panozzo was certainly a dealer. After he was locked up he slipped up on the phone and the cops found a brick of cocaine in his house. He faces more charges because of that

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.su ... ources-say

Pete, thanks for posting. I’d forgotten about this article. The Panozzo crew is emblematic so far as I’m concerned of Grand Ave. Pinocchio, Paulie et al, some really grimy violent dudes who had their hands deep into multiple rackets. Burglaries, stick ups, moving smerch, prostitution, and yes, drugs. It’s important again to keep in mind these guys were true lifetime thugs since they were teenagers. And they aren’t just sporadically working with gangs, they were gangbangers who graduated to Outfit guys and we have plenty of grounds to believe that their connections to street gangs remained salient and important throughout their criminal careers.

A side note also, the MO of sticking up drug dealers and selling their product using a network of gang members didn’t start with Pinocchio. The infamous cop Joe Miedzianowski (14th district) was convicted in 2001 and sentenced to life w/o parole for robbing drug dealers and using gang members to move the product on the streets, as well as operating a Miami to Chicago drug pipeline. My understanding is that Miedzianowski was supplying the C-Notes and working under Grand Ave, as well as fixing murder cases and other typical dirty cop mob associate stuff.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... y,amp.html

[Wiseguy]

Panozzo was certainly a dealer. After he was locked up he slipped up on the phone and the cops found a brick of cocaine in his house. He faces more charges because of that

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.su ... ources-say

Yes, when they rob a stash house, they'll take both cash and drugs. And then turn around and sell the stolen drugs for more money. They're obviously not going to just throw the drugs away. But to label Panozzo or others in that crew as closely involved in the drug trade is misleading. They're not so much drug dealers, per se, as robbers/burglars who got their hands on some drugs during a heist.

[PolackTony]

The infamous cop Joe Miedzianowski (14th district) was convicted in 2001 and sentenced to life w/o parole for robbing drug dealers and using gang members to move the product on the streets, as well as operating a Miami to Chicago drug pipeline. My understanding is that Miedzianowski was supplying the C-Notes and working under Grand Ave, as well as fixing murder cases and other typical dirty cop mob associate stuff.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicag ... y,amp.html

Typo, Miedzianowski convicted in 2003.

[PolackTony]

[But to label Panozzo or others in that crew as closely involved in the drug trade is misleading. They're not so much drug dealers, per se, as robbers/burglars who got their hands on some drugs during a heist.

I don't think it's misleading at all. To the contrary, I think it's misleading to interpret what was stated in this particular case apart from the context of who these people are and where they come from. There's lots of stuff you won't know just from what appears in these documents. Pinocchio and Big Paulie were C-Notes. High ranking C-Notes. They were heavily involved in a well known criminal enterprise active in the trafficking and distribution of drugs before they became Outfit guys. When they were C-Notes this organization was closely involved with a ring of corrupt cops and gangbangers who were robbing drug dealers and distributing the product on the street. Does it seem reasonable to prima facie assume then that their later activities in robbing drug stash houses were not very likely part of a longer pattern of criminal enterprise? Woild it be reasonable to assume that their longterm involvement in a drug distribution gang simply stopped when they graduated to working directly as Outfit guys?

BTW thanks for the discussion. I've read your contributions to this forum with great interest and appreciation.

[Pete]

Panozzo was certainly a dealer. After he was locked up he slipped up on the phone and the cops found a brick of cocaine in his house. He faces more charges because of that

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.su ... ources-say

Yes, when they rob a stash house, they'll take both cash and drugs. And then turn around and sell the stolen drugs for more money. They're obviously not going to just throw the drugs away. But to label Panozzo or others in that crew as closely involved in the drug trade is misleading. They're not so much drug dealers, per se, as robbers/burglars who got their hands on some drugs during a heist.

Ok well that coke was in his house well after he got busted and was held awaiting trial, so it’s your contention he got that from a stash house and was saving it for posterity? I thought it was pretty common knowledge panozzo dealt where are you getting your information that he isn’t a dealer? Can you post any links? Also do you contend that carparelli wasn’t a dealer? Pretty sure when his case was going on the prosecutors said he had been dealing for over 20 years. I’m not saying these guys are big time dealers but I think to say they are only robbing people is misleading. This reminds me of the old dan arguments about how the mob doesn’t deal. If you have nothing to back up your claims we can agree to disagree. The days of deal and die are long gone wiseguy

[Wiseguy]

I don't think it's misleading at all. To the contrary, I think it's misleading to interpret what was stated in this particular case apart from the context of who these people are and where they come from. There's lots of stuff you won't know just from what appears in these documents. Pinocchio and Big Paulie were C-Notes. High ranking C-Notes. They were heavily involved in a well known criminal enterprise active in the trafficking and distribution of drugs before they became Outfit guys. When they were C-Notes this organization was closely involved with a ring of corrupt cops and gangbangers who were robbing drug dealers and distributing the product on the street. Does it seem reasonable to prima facie assume then that their later activities in robbing drug stash houses were not very likely part of a longer pattern of criminal enterprise? Woild it be reasonable to assume that their longterm involvement in a drug distribution gang simply stopped when they graduated to working directly as Outfit guys?

BTW thanks for the discussion. I've read your contributions to this forum with great interest and appreciation.

Yes, it would be reasonable to conclude that considering the relatively few Outfit-related drug cases over the past 20 years, be it the Vena crew specifically or Chicago in general. If these guys were deeply involved in the drug trade, especially over a long period of time, we would see more evidence of it.

Ok well that coke was in his house well after he got busted and was held awaiting trial, so it’s your contention he got that from a stash house and was saving it for posterity? I thought it was pretty common knowledge panozzo dealt where are you getting your information that he isn’t a dealer? Can you post any links? Also do you contend that carparelli wasn’t a dealer? Pretty sure when his case was going on the prosecutors said he had been dealing for over 20 years. I’m not saying these guys are big time dealers but I think to say they are only robbing people is misleading. This reminds me of the old dan arguments about how the mob doesn’t deal. If you have nothing to back up your claims we can agree to disagree. The days of deal and die are long gone wiseguy

I never said it was a case of "deal or die." My point is, there's really no evidence the Outfit (again, be it one crew or in general) is deeply involved in the drug trade. You can look over the past 20 years and the few examples there are involve associates on a limited basis.

[Pete]

I don't think it's misleading at all. To the contrary, I think it's misleading to interpret what was stated in this particular case apart from the context of who these people are and where they come from. There's lots of stuff you won't know just from what appears in these documents. Pinocchio and Big Paulie were C-Notes. High ranking C-Notes. They were heavily involved in a well known criminal enterprise active in the trafficking and distribution of drugs before they became Outfit guys. When they were C-Notes this organization was closely involved with a ring of corrupt cops and gangbangers who were robbing drug dealers and distributing the product on the street. Does it seem reasonable to prima facie assume then that their later activities in robbing drug stash houses were not very likely part of a longer pattern of criminal enterprise? Woild it be reasonable to assume that their longterm involvement in a drug distribution gang simply stopped when they graduated to working directly as Outfit guys?

BTW thanks for the discussion. I've read your contributions to this forum with great interest and appreciation.

Yes, it would be reasonable to conclude that considering the relatively few Outfit-related drug cases over the past 20 years, be it the Vena crew specifically or Chicago in general. If these guys were deeply involved in the drug trade, especially over a long period of time, we would see more evidence of it.

Ok well that coke was in his house well after he got busted and was held awaiting trial, so it’s your contention he got that from a stash house and was saving it for posterity? I thought it was pretty common knowledge panozzo dealt where are you getting your information that he isn’t a dealer? Can you post any links? Also do you contend that carparelli wasn’t a dealer? Pretty sure when his case was going on the prosecutors said he had been dealing for over 20 years. I’m not saying these guys are big time dealers but I think to say they are only robbing people is misleading. This reminds me of the old dan arguments about how the mob doesn’t deal. If you have nothing to back up your claims we can agree to disagree. The days of deal and die are long gone wiseguy

I never said it was a case of "deal or die." My point is, there's really no evidence the Outfit (again, be it one crew or in general) is deeply involved in the drug trade. You can look over the past 20 years and the few examples there are involve associates on a limited basis.

Ok I got you and agree. I misunderstood I thought you were saying their involvement was limited to robbing stash houses. Certainly overall they are not deep in the game but they have people that deal to some extent but of course not nearly on the scale of street gangs or cartels

[Confederate]

I don't think it's misleading at all. To the contrary, I think it's misleading to interpret what was stated in this particular case apart from the context of who these people are and where they come from. There's lots of stuff you won't know just from what appears in these documents. Pinocchio and Big Paulie were C-Notes. High ranking C-Notes. They were heavily involved in a well known criminal enterprise active in the trafficking and distribution of drugs before they became Outfit guys. When they were C-Notes this organization was closely involved with a ring of corrupt cops and gangbangers who were robbing drug dealers and distributing the product on the street. Does it seem reasonable to prima facie assume then that their later activities in robbing drug stash houses were not very likely part of a longer pattern of criminal enterprise? Woild it be reasonable to assume that their longterm involvement in a drug distribution gang simply stopped when they graduated to working directly as Outfit guys?

BTW thanks for the discussion. I've read your contributions to this forum with great interest and appreciation.

Yes, it would be reasonable to conclude that considering the relatively few Outfit-related drug cases over the past 20 years, be it the Vena crew specifically or Chicago in general. If these guys were deeply involved in the drug trade, especially over a long period of time, we would see more evidence of it.

Ok well that coke was in his house well after he got busted and was held awaiting trial, so it’s your contention he got that from a stash house and was saving it for posterity? I thought it was pretty common knowledge panozzo dealt where are you getting your information that he isn’t a dealer? Can you post any links? Also do you contend that carparelli wasn’t a dealer? Pretty sure when his case was going on the prosecutors said he had been dealing for over 20 years. I’m not saying these guys are big time dealers but I think to say they are only robbing people is misleading. This reminds me of the old dan arguments about how the mob doesn’t deal. If you have nothing to back up your claims we can agree to disagree. The days of deal and die are long gone wiseguy

I never said it was a case of "deal or die." My point is, there's really no evidence the Outfit (again, be it one crew or in general) is deeply involved in the drug trade. You can look over the past 20 years and the few examples there are involve associates on a limited basis.

Ok I got you and agree. I misunderstood I thought you were saying their involvement was limited to robbing stash houses. Certainly overall they are not deep in the game but they have people that deal to some extent but of course not nearly on the scale of street gangs or cartels

Yes, I agree. I would look at it like it was always an "extra bonus" for Panozzo when he robbed the stash house for money. I'm sure he was planning to sell it later. Holding on to it was like holding on to a saleable asset. Do either of you have any evidence that Panozzo or any of his crew were drug users themselves?

[Pete]

I don't think it's misleading at all. To the contrary, I think it's misleading to interpret what was stated in this particular case apart from the context of who these people are and where they come from. There's lots of stuff you won't know just from what appears in these documents. Pinocchio and Big Paulie were C-Notes. High ranking C-Notes. They were heavily involved in a well known criminal enterprise active in the trafficking and distribution of drugs before they became Outfit guys. When they were C-Notes this organization was closely involved with a ring of corrupt cops and gangbangers who were robbing drug dealers and distributing the product on the street. Does it seem reasonable to prima facie assume then that their later activities in robbing drug stash houses were not very likely part of a longer pattern of criminal enterprise? Woild it be reasonable to assume that their longterm involvement in a drug distribution gang simply stopped when they graduated to working directly as Outfit guys?

BTW thanks for the discussion. I've read your contributions to this forum with great interest and appreciation.

Yes, it would be reasonable to conclude that considering the relatively few Outfit-related drug cases over the past 20 years, be it the Vena crew specifically or Chicago in general. If these guys were deeply involved in the drug trade, especially over a long period of time, we would see more evidence of it.

Ok well that coke was in his house well after he got busted and was held awaiting trial, so it’s your contention he got that from a stash house and was saving it for posterity? I thought it was pretty common knowledge panozzo dealt where are you getting your information that he isn’t a dealer? Can you post any links? Also do you contend that carparelli wasn’t a dealer? Pretty sure when his case was going on the prosecutors said he had been dealing for over 20 years. I’m not saying these guys are big time dealers but I think to say they are only robbing people is misleading. This reminds me of the old dan arguments about how the mob doesn’t deal. If you have nothing to back up your claims we can agree to disagree. The days of deal and die are long gone wiseguy

I never said it was a case of "deal or die." My point is, there's really no evidence the Outfit (again, be it one crew or in general) is deeply involved in the drug trade. You can look over the past 20 years and the few examples there are involve associates on a limited basis.

Ok I got you and agree. I misunderstood I thought you were saying their involvement was limited to robbing stash houses. Certainly overall they are not deep in the game but they have people that deal to some extent but of course not nearly on the scale of street gangs or cartels

Yes, I agree. I would look at it like it was always an "extra bonus" for Panozzo when he robbed the stash house for money. I'm sure he was planning to sell it later. Holding on to it was like holding on to a saleable asset. Do either of you have any evidence that Panozzo or any of his crew were drug users themselves?

Not any of them but carparelli had cocaine on him when he was arrested and tested positive for use

[PolackTony]

Yes, it would be reasonable to conclude that considering the relatively few Outfit-related drug cases over the past 20 years, be it the Vena crew specifically or Chicago in general. If these guys were deeply involved in the drug trade, especially over a long period of time, we would see more evidence of it.
I never said it was a case of "deal or die." My point is, there's really no evidence the Outfit (again, be it one crew or in general) is deeply involved in the drug trade. You can look over the past 20 years and the few examples there are involve associates on a limited basis.

Fair enough, I respect that you have a defensible and conservative opinion given what's been documented thus far in criminal cases. If I recall, the feds set up their sting of Pinocchio et al with 44 kilos. This is a lot of weight for a crew who's isn't "deeply involved" in drug distribution to plan to take on. I just don't see how that fits with a reading of these guys as not big time into drugs. Either they have the network themselves to distribute this volume of product (very doubtful) or they have partnerships with street gangs to do so. The latter is perfectly sensible to assume, as - again - these guys were C-Notes. Maybe this doesn't mean anything to you, but this is a very significant fact for interpreting their activities here. As high ranking members of the C-Notes they had longstanding and close connections to the leaders of organizations such as the Spanish Cobras, who have operated lucrative high-volume street level drug distribution operations in the area for decades. And from what I understand they had some Cobras working with them on these jobs. The volume of product they were taking alone doesn't square up with a reading of them as only tangentially involved in drugs. And again, what was laid out in the criminal case has to be interpreted in light of who these guys are and their significant ties to organizations knee deep in drug distribution. Take it as you will, but there are things that you simply won't understand from reading articles and case files.

[Wiseguy]

Yes, it would be reasonable to conclude that considering the relatively few Outfit-related drug cases over the past 20 years, be it the Vena crew specifically or Chicago in general. If these guys were deeply involved in the drug trade, especially over a long period of time, we would see more evidence of it.
I never said it was a case of "deal or die." My point is, there's really no evidence the Outfit (again, be it one crew or in general) is deeply involved in the drug trade. You can look over the past 20 years and the few examples there are involve associates on a limited basis.

Fair enough, I respect that you have a defensible and conservative opinion given what's been documented thus far in criminal cases. If I recall, the feds set up their sting of Pinocchio et al with 44 kilos. This is a lot of weight for a crew who's isn't "deeply involved" in drug distribution to plan to take on. I just don't see how that fits with a reading of these guys as not big time into drugs. Either they have the network themselves to distribute this volume of product (very doubtful) or they have partnerships with street gangs to do so. The latter is perfectly sensible to assume, as - again - these guys were C-Notes. Maybe this doesn't mean anything to you, but this is a very significant fact for interpreting their activities here. As high ranking members of the C-Notes they had longstanding and close connections to the leaders of organizations such as the Spanish Cobras, who have operated lucrative high-volume street level drug distribution operations in the area for decades. And from what I understand they had some Cobras working with them on these jobs. The volume of product they were taking alone doesn't square up with a reading of them as only tangentially involved in drugs. And again, what was laid out in the criminal case has to be interpreted in light of who these guys are and their significant ties to organizations knee deep in drug distribution. Take it as you will, but there are things that you simply won't understand from reading articles and case files.

I go with the available, demonstrable evidence. As the indictments (or lack thereof) have shown, we don't see much evidence for a deep involvement in the drug trade by the Vena crew specifically, or the Outfit in general. The longer the timeframe in question, the more this point is solidified.

As I've said, you look at these guys' history, and they are more burglars and robbers than, anything. Both of which have long been an Outfit staple. Drugs, not so much. In more recent years, drug stash houses appear to have become the Panozzo crew's favorite target. They go where the money is, directly (cash) or indirectly (drugs).

It's true that robbing other drug dealers is hardly an uncommon thing street gang members do. And those street gangs would provide a ready source of intel for the crew on stash houses locations, as well as a source of distribution for those drugs. But this is ad-hoc involvement by the Panozzo crew - a robbery crew that will use whatever resources available at the time for whatever target - rather than a street gang or DTO that specifically exists for the purpose of consistently trafficking in narcotics.

If we saw further examples of this, by either the Vena crew or others tied to the Outfit, you might have a point. But thus far, this was a limited, short-lived racket by some associates.

[PolackTony]

I go with the available, demonstrable evidence. As the indictments (or lack thereof) have shown, we don't see much evidence for a deep involvement in the drug trade by the Vena crew specifically, or the Outfit in general. The longer the timeframe in question, the more this point is solidified.

As I've said, you look at these guys' history, and they are more burglars and robbers than, anything. Both of which have long been an Outfit staple. Drugs, not so much. In more recent years, drug stash houses appear to have become the Panozzo crew's favorite target. They go where the money is, directly (cash) or indirectly (drugs).

It's true that robbing other drug dealers is hardly an uncommon thing street gang members do. And those street gangs would provide a ready source of intel for the crew on stash houses locations, as well as a source of distribution for those drugs. But this is ad-hoc involvement by the Panozzo crew - a robbery crew that will use whatever resources available at the time for whatever target - rather than a street gang or DTO that specifically exists for the purpose of consistently trafficking in narcotics.

If we saw further examples of this, by either the Vena crew or others tied to the Outfit, you might have a point. But thus far, this was a limited, short-lived racket by some associates.

Again, well-stated. We're clearly operating under different assumptions regarding what constitutes valid evidence on this question, and reading the same details laid out in these indictments through different interpretive frameworks. Further, we don't seem to have a shared understanding of what criteria should serve mark a distinction between "deep" and "ad hoc" involvement in the drug trade, so I don't want to push on talking past each other on this. To be clear, I'm not of the mind that a criminal enterprise needs to "specifically exist[...] for the purpose of consistently trafficking in narcotics" in order for their activities to count as "deeply involved" in drugs. I think an ongoing pattern of engaging in the sort of activities that Panozzo et al are alleged to have counts, particularly given the volume of product and earnings involved. It's not that they attempted to rob and move 44 kilos once - they were pulling these types of robberies over and over again. That's a pattern of involvement, and this would've meant that they were almost certainly moving a LOT of drugs. Besides, rackets aren't mutually exclusive. No reason why we can't define them as burglars (as well as extortionists, pimps, etc) while also concluding that they had significant involvement in drugs as well. These guys were in multiple rackets. Not to mis-characterize your argument, but it reads to me as akin to claiming that just because, say, some big real estate guy was also selling a lot of drugs, he isn't "really" into moving drugs because he's "actually" into real estate.

Having said that, I think we've both done a good job in clearly expounding our respective positions on this. As stated above, I appreciate the discussion and your input.

[Uncle Pete]

Yea, I think it’s fair to say this crew was knee deep in the drug business. They had allegedly been doing 5 or 6 major drug rips a year. An old article stated the crew took 25 kilos during the robbery in which Panozzo cut a guys ear off for lying to him about understanding English. This attempted robbery was 44 keys. Combine these totals with 5 or 6 major rips a year, it’s likely that this crew was stealing and selling over 100 kilos a year.

A bit of an off topic question but does anyone know the last NYC 5 family busts involving comparable amounts of cocaine?

[Wiseguy]

As we know, the 44 kilos of "a substance containing cocaine" was simply a very juicy target law enforcement successfully dangled in front of the crew. Obviously 44 actual kilos of cocaine was never obtained from this target or distributed by the crew afterward. They just as well may have tried to hit a stash house that had 4 kilos, or 100 kilos, and isn't necessarily indicative of the amount of drugs they stole and distributed, either directly themselves or indirectly through the gangs that tipped them off in the first place.

Authorities said the crew hit five or six stash houses a year. But from what I can tell, this was a relatively new operation of the crew; going on for maybe five years. These guys have a long criminal history and I haven't seen robbing drug stash houses or deep involvement in drugs going further back. What you do see in the past is these guys doing rather sophisticated home invasion robberies with tips from insurance brokers and other sources. The stash houses and tips from street gangs were simply a newer twist on what these guys do.

And for the record, while the LCN as a whole has been marginalized in the drug trade, whatever involvement Chicago has is trivial compared to New York. Not even the same ballpark.

[Uncle Pete]

I totally agree with your point on Chicago being trivial vs New York as a whole on the drug trade.

All I’m saying is this specific outfit crew seems to have been one of the bigger Cosa Nostra drug crews in recent memory, no?

They had successfully pulled off a 25 kilo robbery and attempted a 44 kilo robbery. I haven’t read that 4 kilo number in any materials however, I certainly may have missed it. The authorities allege 5-6 major drug rips a year. If you go with the successful robbery of 25 keys times 5 a year, these dudes were moving 125 bricks a year.

Has any NYC 5 family crew been pinched moving this much blow in a year period? I’m genuinely curious as it just seems like it’s been a long time since I read of an NYC 5 family bust involving anything over a few kilos