Capone and the Mafia

[Antiliar]

No. Tony Lombardo told Capone to STOP giving tribute to Joe Masseria in New York since he wasn't a made member. Then Capone was "whistled in" to New York and Masseria made him a member and a capodecina with the ability to make ten soldiers. He would continue to pay tribute to Masseria, but now he was "kicking up." Masseria told him he would recognize him as the Chicago boss if he killed Lombardo, so he did.

When Capone was made, then AND ONLY THEN there were two Mafia Families operating in Chicago. The regular Chicago Mafia, and the Capone crew of the Masseria Family. This was only for around 2 1/2 years though and was an exception.

That is very interesting. Thank you. Masseria must have know that Capone would make a lot more than 10 men. It wasn't LIMITED to ten. Correct?
I thought Capone was simply "accepted" into the National LCN IN 1931 by Luciano since Capone was so powerful anyway. I didn't realize the actual Mafia connection BEFORE 1931. Did Capone eventually turn against Masseria? Did he know Luciano was going to kill Masseria?

Capone was limited to ten men while he was a capodecina under Masseria according to the information we have. Once he was the boss he could do what he wanted. I don't know if Capone knew ahead of time that Masseria was going to be killed, but I believe that he did. From what info I have, he was fairly close to Luciano. We don't have a lot of details on the specifics, it's a lot of putting 2 and 2 together.

[Antiliar]

I thought Chicago Heights was its own family before being absorbed?


Pogo

It was.

[Confederate]

No. Tony Lombardo told Capone to STOP giving tribute to Joe Masseria in New York since he wasn't a made member. Then Capone was "whistled in" to New York and Masseria made him a member and a capodecina with the ability to make ten soldiers. He would continue to pay tribute to Masseria, but now he was "kicking up." Masseria told him he would recognize him as the Chicago boss if he killed Lombardo, so he did.

When Capone was made, then AND ONLY THEN there were two Mafia Families operating in Chicago. The regular Chicago Mafia, and the Capone crew of the Masseria Family. This was only for around 2 1/2 years though and was an exception.

That is very interesting. Thank you. Masseria must have know that Capone would make a lot more than 10 men. It wasn't LIMITED to ten. Correct?
I thought Capone was simply "accepted" into the National LCN IN 1931 by Luciano since Capone was so powerful anyway. I didn't realize the actual Mafia connection BEFORE 1931. Did Capone eventually turn against Masseria? Did he know Luciano was going to kill Masseria?

Capone was limited to ten men while he was a capodecina under Masseria according to the information we have. Once he was the boss he could do what he wanted. I don't know if Capone knew ahead of time that Masseria was going to be killed, but I believe that he did. From what info I have, he was fairly close to Luciano. We don't have a lot of details on the specifics, it's a lot of putting 2 and 2 together.

The funny thing is hearing Capone in 1928 being referred to as a capodecina instead of a Boss. in 1927, his Syndicate grossed $105 million in business which was amazing. So what you're saying is that from sometime in 1928, Capone was officially a member of the Masseria Family in New York as a "Capodecina" BESIDES being his own Boss of the Chicago Syndicate. Correct?

[Villain]

No. Tony Lombardo told Capone to STOP giving tribute to Joe Masseria in New York since he wasn't a made member. Then Capone was "whistled in" to New York and Masseria made him a member and a capodecina with the ability to make ten soldiers. He would continue to pay tribute to Masseria, but now he was "kicking up." Masseria told him he would recognize him as the Chicago boss if he killed Lombardo, so he did.

When Capone was made, then AND ONLY THEN there were two Mafia Families operating in Chicago. The regular Chicago Mafia, and the Capone crew of the Masseria Family. This was only for around 2 1/2 years though and was an exception.

That is very interesting. Thank you. Masseria must have know that Capone would make a lot more than 10 men. It wasn't LIMITED to ten. Correct?
I thought Capone was simply "accepted" into the National LCN IN 1931 by Luciano since Capone was so powerful anyway. I didn't realize the actual Mafia connection BEFORE 1931. Did Capone eventually turn against Masseria? Did he know Luciano was going to kill Masseria?

Capone was limited to ten men while he was a capodecina under Masseria according to the information we have. Once he was the boss he could do what he wanted. I don't know if Capone knew ahead of time that Masseria was going to be killed, but I believe that he did. From what info I have, he was fairly close to Luciano. We don't have a lot of details on the specifics, it's a lot of putting 2 and 2 together.

The funny thing is hearing Capone in 1928 being referred to as a capodecina instead of a Boss. in 1927, his Syndicate grossed $105 million in business which was amazing. So what you're saying is that from sometime in 1928, Capone was officially a member of the Masseria Family in New York as a "Capodecina" BESIDES being his own Boss of the Chicago Syndicate. Correct?

By 1928 Capone still wasnt the top guy in Chicago since there were still other syndicates. He became the boss by the end of 1930 and official in 1931

[Villain]

I thought Chicago Heights was its own family before being absorbed?


Pogo

It was.

Thanks. Thats the thing i was previously asking about

[Confederate]

No. Tony Lombardo told Capone to STOP giving tribute to Joe Masseria in New York since he wasn't a made member. Then Capone was "whistled in" to New York and Masseria made him a member and a capodecina with the ability to make ten soldiers. He would continue to pay tribute to Masseria, but now he was "kicking up." Masseria told him he would recognize him as the Chicago boss if he killed Lombardo, so he did.

When Capone was made, then AND ONLY THEN there were two Mafia Families operating in Chicago. The regular Chicago Mafia, and the Capone crew of the Masseria Family. This was only for around 2 1/2 years though and was an exception.

That is very interesting. Thank you. Masseria must have know that Capone would make a lot more than 10 men. It wasn't LIMITED to ten. Correct?
I thought Capone was simply "accepted" into the National LCN IN 1931 by Luciano since Capone was so powerful anyway. I didn't realize the actual Mafia connection BEFORE 1931. Did Capone eventually turn against Masseria? Did he know Luciano was going to kill Masseria?

Capone was limited to ten men while he was a capodecina under Masseria according to the information we have. Once he was the boss he could do what he wanted. I don't know if Capone knew ahead of time that Masseria was going to be killed, but I believe that he did. From what info I have, he was fairly close to Luciano. We don't have a lot of details on the specifics, it's a lot of putting 2 and 2 together.

The funny thing is hearing Capone in 1928 being referred to as a capodecina instead of a Boss. in 1927, his Syndicate grossed $105 million in business which was amazing. So what you're saying is that from sometime in 1928, Capone was officially a member of the Masseria Family in New York as a "Capodecina" BESIDES being his own Boss of the Chicago Syndicate. Correct?

By 1928 Capone still wasnt the top guy in Chicago since there were still other syndicates. He became the boss by the end of 1930 and official in 1931

I see your point, but can we at least say the Capone Syndicate was the biggest? I mean no other Syndicate came close to grossing $105 Million 1927.

[Villain]

No. Tony Lombardo told Capone to STOP giving tribute to Joe Masseria in New York since he wasn't a made member. Then Capone was "whistled in" to New York and Masseria made him a member and a capodecina with the ability to make ten soldiers. He would continue to pay tribute to Masseria, but now he was "kicking up." Masseria told him he would recognize him as the Chicago boss if he killed Lombardo, so he did.

When Capone was made, then AND ONLY THEN there were two Mafia Families operating in Chicago. The regular Chicago Mafia, and the Capone crew of the Masseria Family. This was only for around 2 1/2 years though and was an exception.

That is very interesting. Thank you. Masseria must have know that Capone would make a lot more than 10 men. It wasn't LIMITED to ten. Correct?
I thought Capone was simply "accepted" into the National LCN IN 1931 by Luciano since Capone was so powerful anyway. I didn't realize the actual Mafia connection BEFORE 1931. Did Capone eventually turn against Masseria? Did he know Luciano was going to kill Masseria?

Capone was limited to ten men while he was a capodecina under Masseria according to the information we have. Once he was the boss he could do what he wanted. I don't know if Capone knew ahead of time that Masseria was going to be killed, but I believe that he did. From what info I have, he was fairly close to Luciano. We don't have a lot of details on the specifics, it's a lot of putting 2 and 2 together.

The funny thing is hearing Capone in 1928 being referred to as a capodecina instead of a Boss. in 1927, his Syndicate grossed $105 million in business which was amazing. So what you're saying is that from sometime in 1928, Capone was officially a member of the Masseria Family in New York as a "Capodecina" BESIDES being his own Boss of the Chicago Syndicate. Correct?

By 1928 Capone still wasnt the top guy in Chicago since there were still other syndicates. He became the boss by the end of 1930 and official in 1931

I see your point, but can we at least say the Capone Syndicate was the biggest? I mean no other Syndicate came close to grossing $105 Million 1927.

I agree and as I already said, if he was able to sent such large amounts back home, then he really had a lot of money

[B.]

Great thread that follows the known facts closely and hits on some interesting speculation.

Chris Christie and I were talking about it, and I don't think it's necessarily right to call the Chicago mafia the "Sicilian mafia" by the 1920s. Just about every major family in the US was becoming increasingly Americanized by this time and it does appear in Chicago some mainlanders were being inducted, relationships were being made with non-Italians, etc. I think the lines were already beginning to blur as early as Merlo's reign given his relationship to the mainlanders.

Stefano Magaddino discussed on tape how both Salvatore LoVerde and Paul Ricca attended the 1931 Chicago meeting, with LoVerde representing the "greaseball" faction and Ricca representing the "Americanized" faction (Magaddino's own words for those faction). So by 1931 there was an "Americanized" faction of the family and Ricca was an established figure of some kind within that group.

Yale and Pollaccia (Masseria representatives) visited with the Genna faction in the 1920s as well. The Gennas were from Marsala, like Masseria, so it appears Masseria had ties with his Sicilian paesani in Chicago in addition to Capone.

Non-Sicilians were being made in Pittsburgh by the mid-1910s and Richie Boiardo's FBI files include a report that says Camorristi / mainlanders were made into the mafia around the US between the mid-1910s and early 1930s; the list includes mostly the well-known Genovese figures, including Al Capone. The "Fred" who was recorded on the DeCarlo tapes about becoming a made member in the late 1910s appears to be a mainlander, indicating the Morello or pre-Masseria family was bringing in mainlanders that early. Other families also had mainlanders by the late 1920s.

I believe there was little to no controversy about inducting mainlanders by the 1920s, though there may have been controversy about putting them in leadership positions. Even decades later we have Nino Gaggi (falsely) telling Roy Demeo in NYC that certain high-ranking positions could only be held by Sicilians. This may have been an early rule in some groups, though we have exceptions like Frankie Yale.

--

The main question I have is what evidence there is that Lolordo and Bacino had a relationship with Masseria? Also what is the evidence Lolordo may have been a "front boss" for Capone? It seems more likely to me the relationship would have been similar to Loverde, where they had their own faction, the same "greaseballs" LoVerde would later lead. These "greaseballs" weren't necessarily a "front" for the "Americanized" faction, simply a separate faction that was represented in the leadership. This is pretty typical in mafia administrations.

[Villain]

Great thread that follows the known facts closely and hits on some interesting speculation.

Chris Christie and I were talking about it, and I don't think it's necessarily right to call the Chicago mafia the "Sicilian mafia" by the 1920s. Just about every major family in the US was becoming increasingly Americanized by this time and it does appear in Chicago some mainlanders were being inducted, relationships were being made with non-Italians, etc. I think the lines were already beginning to blur as early as Merlo's reign given his relationship to the mainlanders.

Stefano Magaddino discussed on tape how both Salvatore LoVerde and Paul Ricca attended the 1931 Chicago meeting, with LoVerde representing the "greaseball" faction and Ricca representing the "Americanized" faction (Magaddino's own words for those faction). So by 1931 there was an "Americanized" faction of the family and Ricca was an established figure of some kind within that group.

Yale and Pollaccia (Masseria representatives) visited with the Genna faction in the 1920s as well. The Gennas were from Marsala, like Masseria, so it appears Masseria had ties with his Sicilian paesani in Chicago in addition to Capone.

Non-Sicilians were being made in Pittsburgh by the mid-1910s and Richie Boiardo's FBI files include a report that says Camorristi / mainlanders were made into the mafia around the US between the mid-1910s and early 1930s; the list includes mostly the well-known Genovese figures, including Al Capone. The "Fred" who was recorded on the DeCarlo tapes about becoming a made member in the late 1910s appears to be a mainlander, indicating the Morello or pre-Masseria family was bringing in mainlanders that early. Other families also had mainlanders by the late 1920s.

I believe there was little to no controversy about inducting mainlanders by the 1920s, though there may have been controversy about putting them in leadership positions. Even decades later we have Nino Gaggi (falsely) telling Roy Demeo in NYC that certain high-ranking positions could only be held by Sicilians. This may have been an early rule in some groups, though we have exceptions like Frankie Yale.

--

The main question I have is what evidence there is that Lolordo and Bacino had a relationship with Masseria? Also what is the evidence Lolordo may have been a "front boss" for Capone? It seems more likely to me the relationship would have been similar to Loverde, where they had their own faction, the same "greaseballs" LoVerde would later lead. These "greaseballs" weren't necessarily a "front" for the "Americanized" faction, simply a separate faction that was represented in the leadership. This is pretty typical in mafia administrations.

Thats interesting thinking.

Yes, Masseria was probably connected to the Genna clan since it seems that they were allegedly against the Lombardo/Aiello/DAquila regime in Chicago and thats why they were eliminated.

As for Ricca and Loverde, they were also arrested on a train to NY the previous year or 1930, with a bunch of other Chicago mobsters including Pete Fosco, Eddie Vogel, Jake Guzik and Ted Newberry. So as i previously said, thats some interesting info and thinking, meaning it is possible there were two factions, meaning one Sicilian and the other a non-Sicilian, but except for the Atlantic City conference, which was not a Mafia meeting, there wasnt any Mafia meeting, before 1930, on which the Capone faction was present. They always had some less powerful Sicilian ally who represented them, but still he was important in the Sicilian world which in fact was a infiltration ticket for the mainlanders.

During the 1928 Cleveland meeting there werent any of Capones men present and so who do you think represented Masserias and Capones interests on that same sit down? Also Bacinos loyalty towards Capone/Masseria and Roberto can be proved with Bacino maintaining his presence in C City from 1928 onward or until his death. Oliveri abandoned that area and so Bacino took over.

In addition, Lolordo was never a Chicago "long time" resident and he came almost out of "nowhere" as the main rep for the Chi faction, same as Bacino for C City and possibly the Heights faction, while guys like Capone already spent almost a decade in that same city. And since none of the mainlanders were present on the meeting, it was quite possible that Lolordo, Bacino and Oliveri represented Capones, Robertos and Masserias interests, meaning the whole theory about two separate groups goes down the toilet in this particular case. In addition, it is possible that Oliveri was a part from the former D'Aquila regime.

Loverde was a similar case, meaning he was a member of some type of commission which travelled around the country on a mission to settle beefs or gather up additional clans. So his position in Chicago was obviously to keep the peace between the warring factions. Dont forget that Loverde was allowed to operate in Cicero also, under Capones protection. In fact, Loverde was killed in that same area which in fact was Capones headquarters. It is possible that after Loverdes demise, Capone gave his interests to Maritote as a wedding present, meaning northern Cicero.

Who knows, since by 1930 the whole conflict between the warring factions wasnt over and maybe Loverde as a peacemaker and a diplomat represented the losing side, while Ricca represented the other or Capone.

From the streets point of view, there was no one powerful then Capone and Roberto at the time, besides all the labels and stuff like that. Capone was way more powerful then Lolordo or Giunta or Loverde, and we have hundreds of examples to prove this. In fact, everyone was killed except for Capone.

You also might be right regarding the mainlanders only receiving positions below the Sicilian bosses at the time, but that was the only way to give Capone some stature during those days, and maybe Masseria sticked to the rule but later Maranzano obviously broke it. This is a proof that both factions in NY fought for the most powerful guy in Chicago aka Capone and so obviously nobody won, meaning both Masseria and Maranzano were eliminated, while Capone kept his control over the Chi faction and shaped it in his own image. As i already said, the answer can be found in the middle. Capone didnt follow all Mafia protocols, and neither did some of the Sicilian bosses and thats a fact. Money right?!

As you already said, we are mostly talking about Americanized immigrants and American born Italians here, not Sicilian locals

[Eline2015]

Capone was a really a Masseria ally. When in Decemeber 1930 was a meeting of Generall Assembly in Boston, there was a choose a Gaspare Messina as a new capo dei cappi, and was created a special Comission which was supposed to end the Castellammare war. Members of this Comission were Nicola Gentile, Salvatore Loverde, Giuseppe Siragusa of Pittsburgh, Giuseppe Traina and Vincent Troia of Newark. Only Loverde was speaking for Masseria, while Gentile was neutral and others were a Maranzano's allies.

[Villain]

Capone was a really a Masseria ally. When in Decemeber 1930 was a meeting of Generall Assembly in Boston, there was a choose a Gaspare Messina as a new capo dei cappi, and was created a special Comission which was supposed to end the Castellammare war. Members of this Comission were Nicola Gentile, Salvatore Loverde, Giuseppe Siragusa of Pittsburgh, Giuseppe Traina and Vincent Troia of Newark. Only Loverde was speaking for Masseria, while Gentile was neutral and others were a Maranzano's allies.

Thanks man and thats why Loverde was the last one to go right after the hits on Masseria and Maranzano. Joe the boss was killed in April, followed by Maranzano in September and Loverde in November.

Also, as Antiliar already said, it seems that previous of Loverdes demise, he was probably demoted or maybe even shelved. In addition, i think that during one period Gentile was saved by Capone regarding some problem...

[Eline2015]

Capone was a really a Masseria ally. When in Decemeber 1930 was a meeting of Generall Assembly in Boston, there was a choose a Gaspare Messina as a new capo dei cappi, and was created a special Comission which was supposed to end the Castellammare war. Members of this Comission were Nicola Gentile, Salvatore Loverde, Giuseppe Siragusa of Pittsburgh, Giuseppe Traina and Vincent Troia of Newark. Only Loverde was speaking for Masseria, while Gentile was neutral and others were a Maranzano's allies.

Thanks man and thats why Loverde was the last one to go right after the hits on Masseria and Maranzano. Joe the boss was killed in April, followed by Maranzano in September and Loverde in November.

Also, as Antiliar already said, it seems that previous of Loverdes demise, he was probably demoted or maybe even shelved. In addition, i think that during one period Gentile was saved by Capone regarding some problem...

Near the end of may 1931 there was a national mafiosi convention hosted by Capone at Congress Hotel. Probably on that meeting Maranzano recognize Capone as a boss of the Chicago borgata, and Loverde was shelved.

[Villain]

Capone was a really a Masseria ally. When in Decemeber 1930 was a meeting of Generall Assembly in Boston, there was a choose a Gaspare Messina as a new capo dei cappi, and was created a special Comission which was supposed to end the Castellammare war. Members of this Comission were Nicola Gentile, Salvatore Loverde, Giuseppe Siragusa of Pittsburgh, Giuseppe Traina and Vincent Troia of Newark. Only Loverde was speaking for Masseria, while Gentile was neutral and others were a Maranzano's allies.

Thanks man and thats why Loverde was the last one to go right after the hits on Masseria and Maranzano. Joe the boss was killed in April, followed by Maranzano in September and Loverde in November.

Also, as Antiliar already said, it seems that previous of Loverdes demise, he was probably demoted or maybe even shelved. In addition, i think that during one period Gentile was saved by Capone regarding some problem...

Near the end of may 1931 there was a national mafiosi convention hosted by Capone at Congress Hotel. Probably on that meeting Maranzano recognize Capone as a boss of the Chicago borgata, and Loverde was shelved.

I completely agree.

[Villain]

In addition, I also believe that Capone wasnt only considered dangerous in Chicago, but i also think that he was also looked upon as public enemy on national level by many Mafia bosses too, which brings the question on whether the Chicago faction was very important or played a major role in the creation of the "new" commission?

[Antiliar]

Yale and Pollaccia (Masseria representatives) visited with the Genna faction in the 1920s as well. The Gennas were from Marsala, like Masseria, so it appears Masseria had ties with his Sicilian paesani in Chicago in addition to Capone.

B, where did you see that Yale and Pollaccia visited the Genna faction during their 1924 visit? Yale said he visited Al Capone; I don't recall him mentioning the Gennas.