Understanding Chicago

[Snakes]

That’s surprising for someone who grew up in Elizabeth to not know the guys from Peterstown. Anyone I know from there, and I’m a north jersey guy, know exactly who they are. It’s almost impossible not to. The Ribera is on a dead end right by the dpw. Spirito’s is right next to cent’anni pork store, I mean it’s all in one area and they’re still out there. Outside of Elizabeth I’ve never met anyone who really knows them. Where I’m from as most know, it’s all Luke’s and west side ... that’s really it. Yea people connected to the north jersey Philly guys but aside from that it’s those two. If you’re italian American and from Bergen, Passaic, Essex counties... you know someone who’s connected somehow whether it’s family, friends , enemies, whatever. John Riggi’s niece and I grew up together but in Passaic county.

I was surprised too considering how small Elizabeth is. He doesn't follow organized crime and evidently his family hasn't brushed up against it. Maybe he was being untruthful and didn't wish to speak on it. I don't think so but then I don't know the guy personally.

My old man spent the school year with his mom in North Jersey in the 60s and 70s but never mentioned anything about the mob. He kind of lived out in the boonies, though.

[B.]

Thanks.

I dont know anything about the Canadians but wasnt there some non-Italian guy in the Rizzuto family who was allegedly also looked upon as a made member?

Yep, Fernandez went to Sicily and was recorded bragging that he and Desjardins were both inducted by Vito Rizzuto. On one hand it sounds like bullshit, but both guys were definitely high-ranking associates and it took balls to go to Sicily and talk like that, so who really knows? Maybe Rizzuto put together a crew of non-mafia "members" and gave them authority, but we don't have Montreal members cooperating so it's hard to say.

The Cotronis had non-Italians in important roles decades earlier and Montreal is another example where inter-ethnic organized crime is huge. If you asked a member of the Bonanno family if they had non-Italian made guys in Montreal, they'd probably tell you no and when Rizzuto held a member banquet for underboss Sal Vitale, he didn't invite non-Italians. But to someone associating with the Montreal group on a street level, they very well might tell you Fernandez and especially Desjardins were right under Rizzuto in terms of power.

[Angelo Santino]

Thanks.

I dont know anything about the Canadians but wasnt there some non-Italian guy in the Rizzuto family who was allegedly also looked upon as a made member?

Yep, Fernandez went to Sicily and was recorded bragging that he and Desjardins were both inducted by Vito Rizzuto. On one hand it sounds like bullshit, but both guys were definitely high-ranking associates and it took balls to go to Sicily and talk like that, so who really knows? Maybe Rizzuto put together a crew of non-mafia "members" and gave them authority, but we don't have Montreal members cooperating so it's hard to say.

The Cotronis had non-Italians in important roles decades earlier and Montreal is another example where inter-ethnic organized crime is huge. If you asked a member of the Bonanno family if they had non-Italian made guys in Montreal, they'd probably tell you no and when Rizzuto held a member banquet for underboss Sal Vitale, he didn't invite non-Italians. But to someone associating with the Montreal group on a street level, they very well might tell you Fernandez and especially Desjardins were right under Rizzuto in terms of power.

The fact that he went to Palermo and told them he was a member is either incredibly ballsy or he truly believed it. It's astonishing. Perhaps he misunderstood Rizzuto saying "You're one of us" at some point or maybe Rizzuto... I don't know..

[B.]

Thanks.

I dont know anything about the Canadians but wasnt there some non-Italian guy in the Rizzuto family who was allegedly also looked upon as a made member?

Yep, Fernandez went to Sicily and was recorded bragging that he and Desjardins were both inducted by Vito Rizzuto. On one hand it sounds like bullshit, but both guys were definitely high-ranking associates and it took balls to go to Sicily and talk like that, so who really knows? Maybe Rizzuto put together a crew of non-mafia "members" and gave them authority, but we don't have Montreal members cooperating so it's hard to say.

The Cotronis had non-Italians in important roles decades earlier and Montreal is another example where inter-ethnic organized crime is huge. If you asked a member of the Bonanno family if they had non-Italian made guys in Montreal, they'd probably tell you no and when Rizzuto held a member banquet for underboss Sal Vitale, he didn't invite non-Italians. But to someone associating with the Montreal group on a street level, they very well might tell you Fernandez and especially Desjardins were right under Rizzuto in terms of power.

The fact that he went to Palermo and told them he was a member is either incredibly ballsy or he truly believed it. It's astonishing. Perhaps he misunderstood Rizzuto saying "You're one of us" at some point or maybe Rizzuto... I don't know..

Yeah, and Montreal experts had him listed as a leading associate of Rizzuto years earlier and we have a photo of them lounging around together at an event, so the status is there regardless. Like with Antiliar's diagram, maybe there are a couple of circles in Montreal that overlap partially in the leadership circle.

Then there is the other dimension to it, which is that Rizzuto gets called a "mafia boss" of a "family" by sources outside of the organization, while Bonanno member sources all called him a soldier / acting captain of a decina. No doubt he was a boss on a functional level, but it remains to be seen if there is evidence of official mafia rank higher than that. And does it matter? Maybe not, but I'm interested in the formalities.

Would have been interesting if Guzik, Humphreys, or Alex had gone to another mafia city and talked similarly about their role in Chicago (I know they had relationships to members in other cities, but I mean something akin to Fernandez). It appears they were sharp and knew the right time and place to exercise their authority, while Fernandez's fate speaks for itself.

[Snakes]

Alex's FBI files don't really have him interacting with anyone else but Chicago. He spent a lot of time in Fort Lauderdale but I never really read about him doing any mob business while he was down there as he went there specifically to get away from all that.

[Angelo Santino]

I'm waiting for Stroccos to weigh in on Rockman, there's no one better. I also pm'd Scott D. and Scott Burnstein about associates in Tampa and Detroit.

Dear fellas:

1 What notable high level non-Italians were active in the Family's history?

2 Were there any that you would argue fit the "Chicago model" of close association or the "New York Model" of at-arms-length associates?

3 Any other interesting things to add about the subject. Your own thoughts on the matter.

No right or wrong. Salut.

[Antiliar]

All in all, I think this has been a very productive thread.

[Angelo Santino]

All in all, I think this has been a very productive thread.

I feel I learned alot from everyone. Guys like you, Villain, B., Snakes and everyone else really put forward some good thought provoking arguments that someone such as myself really enjoyed. Hopefully we can get Stroccos and both Scotts to share their thoughts on the non-Ital element in their cities and how they connected with other cities. I would imagine Detroit and some Florida elements were connected with Chicago at some level. Maybe not.

[Chopper]

Thanks.

I dont know anything about the Canadians but wasnt there some non-Italian guy in the Rizzuto family who was allegedly also looked upon as a made member?

Yep, Fernandez went to Sicily and was recorded bragging that he and Desjardins were both inducted by Vito Rizzuto. On one hand it sounds like bullshit, but both guys were definitely high-ranking associates and it took balls to go to Sicily and talk like that, so who really knows? Maybe Rizzuto put together a crew of non-mafia "members" and gave them authority, but we don't have Montreal members cooperating so it's hard to say.

The Cotronis had non-Italians in important roles decades earlier and Montreal is another example where inter-ethnic organized crime is huge. If you asked a member of the Bonanno family if they had non-Italian made guys in Montreal, they'd probably tell you no and when Rizzuto held a member banquet for underboss Sal Vitale, he didn't invite non-Italians. But to someone associating with the Montreal group on a street level, they very well might tell you Fernandez and especially Desjardins were right under Rizzuto in terms of power.

The fact that he went to Palermo and told them he was a member is either incredibly ballsy or he truly believed it. It's astonishing. Perhaps he misunderstood Rizzuto saying "You're one of us" at some point or maybe Rizzuto... I don't know..

It was ballsy indeed but then again he did get killed shortly after.

[B.]

I've learned from everyone as well and appreciate folks taking this conversation on even if it's just to humor me. I wanted people to give Chicago a look from a different pair of eyes, but I think I'm going to be looking at every family a little bit different because of this discussion.

With the non-Italians, I can't say I outright disagree with the way they've been presented even if my view of the organization is still different in some ways. It's not that different from made guys in some families who had the rank of soldier but were much more than that to both insiders and outsiders of the organization. A good example is Tony Caponigro (born in Chicago, by the way), who was a soldier until he was promoted to consigliere in 1978, but as far back as the 1950s his status and activities were like that of a much higher ranking member and street sources who described him that way weren't altogether wrong. He held the rank of soldier, but not all soldiers are created equal and some go way beyond that in status depending on the individual and circumstance. The same is true for some associates, and the opposite can be true for members who actually do hold ranking positions in the mafia hierarchy.

Another interesting angle, and this is something I truly know nothing about, would be Italians in Chicago who were not made members of Cosa Nostra but had the status of a ranking member. It doesn't have to be limited to Chicago, but if we're going to eclipse the Buffalo/Ontario thread I do want to stay on topic. We all agree this described Al Capone before he was made by Masseria, but I would rule out Italians who were eventually made since their power eventually became formalized within the organization.

I am still interested too in examples of other powerful non-Italians outside of Chicago who had influence on their respective mafia organizations. Would love to hear what the Scotts and Stroccos might have to say.

[Villain]

Alex's FBI files don't really have him interacting with anyone else but Chicago. He spent a lot of time in Fort Lauderdale but I never really read about him doing any mob business while he was down there as he went there specifically to get away from all that.

Im not sure about this and i have to re-check the info but i think that Alex was close with Richie the Boot or members from his crew and he was allegedly hiding in their area during one brief time period

[Villain]

Heres what i one wrote regarding the relationship between Alex and made guys who were under his rule and also members from other families...

...even though they were his biggest money makers, both Louis Tornabene and Louis Arger were forbidden to mention Alex’s name in any conversation. He warned them that if they continued to blow their mouths off on the telephones, he was going to kill them. In fact, by now Alex still wasn’t recognized by the government as a high ranking hoodlum and so during this period Alex avoided any violence which couldve bring heat from the government, and so his usual punishment was by stripping his soldiers from their operations.

For example, in 1960 rumours spread around that Outfit member Louis Tornabene was holding cash from Alex and the Outfit in general. Alex told Pat Marcy to go and see Tornabene at the Santa Fe Hotel and to determine whether the rumours were true. So Marcy uncovered the scheme and received information that Tornabene withheld approximately $75,000 from Alex by not posting all of the bets on his book.

To make things worst, Tornabene also became involved in a gambling dispute in which he refused to pay to gambling profits to an unknown individual, who was very well connected to Sam Battaglia and also to the Genovese crime family in New York.

When Tornabene heard about the connections, he had sent two of his enforcers with the intent to threaten the individual to take no further action regarding the gambling debt and crashed the individual’s office. So that’s when the “victim” decided to take the issue straight to Battaglia and his contacts in the “Big Apple.” So somebody from New York called Frank Ferraro and informed him about the situation, who in turn immediately called Alex. Ferraro allegedly told to one of his underlings “Warn him that we’re gonna to take action if we catch him holding out anymore.”

So Tornabene was called to an urgent meeting at the Normandy Bar and Cocktail Lounge where he was aggressively and minutely questioned by Ferraro and Alex. With the image of a naughty child who just crashed an expensive vase, Tornabene wasn’t able to give straight answers, did not have the facts and figures in his mind and was obviously lying, whereupon Alex became furious and called Tornabene a “degenerate gambler.”

Alex hated people who drank booze, used drugs or gambled so he also advised Tornabene that “It’s a sucker’s game. You can’t win out there, you understand. We got the percentages rigged all in our favor. The longer you stay, the more you play, the more chances you got of losing. I don’t let nobody around me who gambles. A couple thousand, okay, but no gambling!”

Previously, Charles Bertucci chauffeured Tornabene to the meeting place and during the meeting he waited outside. Bertucci was a gambling operator who came through the ranks of the late mob boss Bruno Roti. In fact, Bertucci was related to Roti’s wife. By now Bertucci was also a business partner with Alex and Tornabene in numerous clubs and building projects.

Now back to the story…so Ferraro walked out of the joint and interviewed Bertucci regarding the situation and again, he received no straight answer. On his way out, Alex told Tornabene that he’s going to fix the problem and added “Now you’re responsible for the guy, you understand?! I know that you hired people to shake him down, and now you should hire someone to protect him because if anything happens to him, it’s gonna be your end!”

After that Alex arranged a meeting but none of the bosses showed up, but instead they sent their underlings. Battaglia’s and New York’s interests were represented by a guy known only as Pope, while Alex’s interests were represented by Charles Bertucci. Bertucci told Pope that any physical damage will be cashed to the victim, all of the material damage that had been done at the victim’s office will also be cashed and also the gambling debt will be taken care of.

Bertucci also added and probably lied to Pope that "in fact" Bennie Bernard, who was one of Tornabene’s enforcers, was the one who allegedly made the attack on his own. Bertucci also said that Alex sends his regards and that he personally will take care of Bernard. By solving the dispute, Alex became highly recommended by the New York mob, especially Richie Boiardo’s crew, a Genovese crime family faction from the Newark area.

Now Tornabene felt very nervous and started having cold sweats because he knew that Alex was going to strip him from every operation that he previously controlled. In fact Tornabene was a very lucky person by just staying alive after the dispute.

So now he had to come up with $85,000 and pay his debts. He owed $75,000 for the scheme and another $10,000 for the gambling dispute or in other words he owed to Alex $60,000, another $15,000 to Joey DiVarco, a known North Side Outfit big shot, and another $10,000 to a businessman known as Robert Stein.

As additional info, Tornabene and DiVarco were first cousins since their mothers were sisters. So in the next few years Tornabene sold or burned, just to take the insurance money, almost every joint that he previously operated. So as it was expected, the remaining of Tornabene’s operations and his stature within the Outfit were taken over by Bertucci and one Louis Briatta. Later Tornabene was convicted to a year in jail for a Federal Housing Administration matter, and after that he received 5 years probation. Also when he got out of jail, he was shelved and was out of all illegal operations.

[sdeitche]

I'm waiting for Stroccos to weigh in on Rockman, there's no one better. I also pm'd Scott D. and Scott Burnstein about associates in Tampa and Detroit.

Dear fellas:

1 What notable high level non-Italians were active in the Family's history?

2 Were there any that you would argue fit the "Chicago model" of close association or the "New York Model" of at-arms-length associates?

3 Any other interesting things to add about the subject. Your own thoughts on the matter.

No right or wrong. Salut.

Not sure why, but my post from last night never posted.

Anyhoo, Tampa had a huge number of non-Italians who were major players with Mafia, primarily Cubans and Spanish (from Spain), who all came from Ybor City.

Guys like:
Gus Perez (Cuban I believe, murdered in 1936)
Fernando Serrano (Spanish)
Johnny "Scarface" Rivera (Spanish)
Lou Figueredo Sr and Jr (Cuban)
Joe Pelusa Diaz (Cuban)
Ceasar Rodriguez (Cuban)
Jimmy Velasco (Spanish)
Baby Joe Diez (Cuban)
California Gene Rivero (Cuban)
George "Saturday" Zarate (Cuban)
Tito Rubio (Cuban)
Virgilio Fabian (Cuban)

[Angelo Santino]

I'm waiting for Stroccos to weigh in on Rockman, there's no one better. I also pm'd Scott D. and Scott Burnstein about associates in Tampa and Detroit.

Dear fellas:

1 What notable high level non-Italians were active in the Family's history?

2 Were there any that you would argue fit the "Chicago model" of close association or the "New York Model" of at-arms-length associates?

3 Any other interesting things to add about the subject. Your own thoughts on the matter.

No right or wrong. Salut.

Not sure why, but my post from last night never posted.

Anyhoo, Tampa had a huge number of non-Italians who were major players with Mafia, primarily Cubans and Spanish (from Spain), who all came from Ybor City.

Guys like:
Gus Perez (Cuban I believe, murdered in 1936)
Fernando Serrano (Spanish)
Johnny "Scarface" Rivera (Spanish)
Lou Figueredo Sr and Jr (Cuban)
Joe Pelusa Diaz (Cuban)
Ceasar Rodriguez (Cuban)
Jimmy Velasco (Spanish)
Baby Joe Diez (Cuban)
California Gene Rivero (Cuban)
George "Saturday" Zarate (Cuban)
Tito Rubio (Cuban)
Virgilio Fabian (Cuban)

Thank you.

Were any of these guys with Tampa in a way that in and around the city they "represented" Trafficante and the organization? Any examples of high level associates similar to a Gus Alex-Chicago situation? I'm not trying to fit anything into something, just curious how these guys paired with the Italians on the day to day. Didn't Trafficante have a Cuban crew?

[sdeitche]

I'm waiting for Stroccos to weigh in on Rockman, there's no one better. I also pm'd Scott D. and Scott Burnstein about associates in Tampa and Detroit.

Dear fellas:

1 What notable high level non-Italians were active in the Family's history?

2 Were there any that you would argue fit the "Chicago model" of close association or the "New York Model" of at-arms-length associates?

3 Any other interesting things to add about the subject. Your own thoughts on the matter.

No right or wrong. Salut.

Not sure why, but my post from last night never posted.

Anyhoo, Tampa had a huge number of non-Italians who were major players with Mafia, primarily Cubans and Spanish (from Spain), who all came from Ybor City.

Guys like:
Gus Perez (Cuban I believe, murdered in 1936)
Fernando Serrano (Spanish)
Johnny "Scarface" Rivera (Spanish)
Lou Figueredo Sr and Jr (Cuban)
Joe Pelusa Diaz (Cuban)
Ceasar Rodriguez (Cuban)
Jimmy Velasco (Spanish)
Baby Joe Diez (Cuban)
California Gene Rivero (Cuban)
George "Saturday" Zarate (Cuban)
Tito Rubio (Cuban)
Virgilio Fabian (Cuban)

Thank you.

Were any of these guys with Tampa in a way that in and around the city they "represented" Trafficante and the organization? Any examples of high level associates similar to a Gus Alex-Chicago situation? I'm not trying to fit anything into something, just curious how these guys paired with the Italians on the day to day. Didn't Trafficante have a Cuban crew?

yes. A few were very high ranking and were closer to Trafficante than some made guys.

Jimmy Velasco was THE political fixer in the 1940s for the Mafia and was the conduit between the underworld and upperworld. He, unfortunately, fell out with the mob and was killed on 12/12/48.

Joe "Baby JOe Diez was a major political fixer in the 70s and 80s. After Trafficante died, he became part of an elder "advisory council" to the Tampa family.

Johnny "Scarface" Rivera was another significant Spanish associate. though more of a lower level.


Trafficante had a crew of Cuban bolita men and drug traffickers in Miami following Castro's takeover. They were seperate than the CUbans and Spanish in Tampa.