Understanding Chicago

[Pete]

Its not about who knows who or how close we are....Antiliar, Snakes, Pete, Confederate and i barely know each other annd as a matter of fact, we even dont know how we look.

BUT besides that, through the years we developed mutual understanding and found many stuff that we all agree on. So its about understanding and open mind. Im not here to make friends or to change anyones diaper once they fuck up...im here for knowledge by listening to what every1 has to say...not jumping to conclusions or ignoring people because im not close with them. And i dont base my knowledge on ifs and buts

Back to Chicago, by the early 70s many crews were finished and so the remaining members joined other older crews or they joined some of the newly created ones.

100% we have had some issues we agree to disagree on but the majority of things we are all on the same page

[Villain]

Its not about who knows who or how close we are....Antiliar, Snakes, Pete, Confederate and i barely know each other annd as a matter of fact, we even dont know how we look.

BUT besides that, through the years we developed mutual understanding and found many stuff that we all agree on. So its about understanding and open mind. Im not here to make friends or to change anyones diaper once they fuck up...im here for knowledge by listening to what every1 has to say...not jumping to conclusions or ignoring people because im not close with them. And i dont base my knowledge on ifs and buts

Back to Chicago, by the early 70s many crews were finished and so the remaining members joined other older crews or they joined some of the newly created ones.

100% we have had some issues we agree to disagree on but the majority of things we are all on the same page

Thats true we had fights and all kinds of disagreements, but as time passed by we learned a lot of stuff and right now we are all, as you already said, on the same page. I know that some of us still have some disagreements on some subjects, but in general we all agree on 90% of the stuff, which used to be quite rare regarding the Outfit.

I think that we are more than halfway there to know the whole truth regarding the Chicago Outfit and i hope that we will receive some more files and infos regarding the "new" era in near future...

[Snakes]

Its not about who knows who or how close we are....Antiliar, Snakes, Pete, Confederate and i barely know each other annd as a matter of fact, we even dont know how we look.

BUT besides that, through the years we developed mutual understanding and found many stuff that we all agree on. So its about understanding and open mind. Im not here to make friends or to change anyones diaper once they fuck up...im here for knowledge by listening to what every1 has to say...not jumping to conclusions or ignoring people because im not close with them. And i dont base my knowledge on ifs and buts

Back to Chicago, by the early 70s many crews were finished and so the remaining members joined other older crews or they joined some of the newly created ones.

100% we have had some issues we agree to disagree on but the majority of things we are all on the same page

Thats true we had fights and all kinds of disagreements, but as time passed by we learned a lot of stuff and right now we are all, as you already said, on the same page. I know that some of us still have some disagreements on some subjects, but in general we all agree on 90% of the stuff, which used to be quite rare regarding the Outfit.

I think that we are more than halfway there to know the whole truth regarding the Chicago Outfit and i hope that we will receive some more files and infos regarding the "new" era in near future...

They are on the way but keep dreaming if you think we will get anything anytime soon with the state the world is in right now.

[B.]

If you look at testimony from someone like James Basile, he talks about being a "soldier", then an "underboss" to a "boss". He says the "bosses" then reported to a "boss of bosses". We know those terms, but when he's talking about a boss, he's referring to what the Calabrese brothers referred to as a "capo" and other sources have called a "caporegime". He said Giancana had been the "boss of bosses", but this is what we would normally call the boss. On a practical level, it's not wrong, as every captain is the boss of certain people and their boss would be in essence a boss of bosses. It's like how your manager at work is your boss, but they too have a boss. We know what Basile meant.

When Basile talks about becoming underboss, it's in context with certain racket-oriented duties he was assigned. It's also not completely clear from what I read whether soldier means associate or whether he's actually saying he was a member at that time. I don't know what to say about Chicago figures throwing around the term underboss, but we know from the way Basile used it, that it doesn't translate to the #2 position in the entire Chicago family.

Going back to the term "boss", Gentile and other early mafia sources use the term "capo" to refer to the head of the entire family, what we would now call the boss. When someone says "capo" now, we know that to mean captain. Gentile and modern members are using the same exact word to refer to different positions in the organization, but it doesn't change what those positions are. The terminology changes and different places have their own way of referring to certain positions.

I would say the same for the "#1 and #2" or "chairman" positions we've seen referenced in Chicago. Whether they're called boss or underboss, we know those positions to be the #1 and #2. Changes in the later mafia have made us think the consigliere is a #3 position below the boss and underboss, but sources show that it can be an incredibly powerful position equal to the boss of the organization who in some cases can even veto his decisions. This was especially true earlier on in history.

Beyond the consigliere, it appears the St. Louis, San Jose, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Tampa, and possibly other families had what they called a "council" of senior members, not unlike a board of directors who influenced decisions within the family. This wasn't some grandiose structure, but a way for peers to help direct family affairs, what some might call "horizontal" power. It wouldn't be surprising if Chicago had something similar earlier on that influenced their direction given it appears to have been a fixture of mafia families around the US. With the examples of Aiello teaming up with the Irish gang leaders and the inductions of non-Sicilians by the early 1920s, if we had a deeper inside look into the Chicago mafia pre-1930s, we might find other roots that bloomed into what we now call the Chicago "outfit".

--

I don't have much more to say on the non-Italians at the moment. I have seen reports from later, referencing the 1970s and 1980s, where a source (no idea who) says he believes Chicago organized crime includes non-Italian members but it specifically refers to "organized crime" (which is a broader term) and his information about the hierarchy includes only Italians and he puts the non-Italians under Italians.

From the available evidence, there is enough room for doubt that I question some of the conclusions that have been made over the years and I want to point out that this particular subject (and others brought up in this thread) are still open for interpretation. I'm not out to prove anyone wrong and close the door.

If someone wanted comprehensive information about Chicago, I wouldn't link them to this thread. Believe it or not, Villain, I would probably link them to your articles if someone asked me for information on the gritty details about Chicago. I don't care that you've made petty comments, though I hope you conduct yourself differently in the future. I would still defer to you and others if someone simply wanted to learn about Chicago.

However, if someone wanted to understand how Chicago fits into the history and wider context of the mafia, I would tell them to read this thread with an open mind and try not to come to any definitive conclusions but to consider everyone's points. This topic is called "Understanding Chicago", not "Chicago: Slam Dunk, Case Closed Forever".

--

These are the member sources who have been referenced earlier in this discussion:

5 Chicago members:
- Louis Fratto
- Butch Blasi
- Frank Calabrese Sr. (via recording)
- Nick Calabrese
- John Roselli (via Fratianno)
+ "Italian Jew" (status undetermined)

3 Los Angeles members close to Chicago:
- Frank Bompensiero (former capodecina)
- Jimmy Fratianno (former capodecina)
- Salvatore Piscopo (confidant of John Roselli)

1 Milwaukee member close to Chicago:
- Augie Maniaci

2 US bosses who were contemporaries and knew Capone personally:
- Joe Bonanno
- Nick Gentile

These member sources inside and outside of Chicago give accounts that are closer than they are different and they span different periods of time and areas of knowledge. I haven't put words in any of their mouths, but their descriptions of Chicago are fairly consistent and none of them suggest the organization was fundamentally different in the bigger picture.

If any of these sources aren't considered reliable, that is worth discussing. With any research topic there should be a hierarchy of sources. When it comes to the mafia itself, I always defer to member sources not because they're perfect but because we don't have a whole lot more to go on. If any other member sources can be added, whether they are consistent with these ones or not, I'd love to see their information. I mentioned Basile earlier, and his testimony is very interesting, especially his being tasked with entertaining "bosses" from "out of town" -- would love to see the specifics of what that meant.

By bringing in examples of other US mafia families, I am not attempting to say, "See! They're exactly like Chicago!" I bring them up because the only comparison we have for a mafia family is other mafia families. The examples I've brought up of other groups throughout this thread show us that mafia families all have unique qualities but they also follow some of the same patterns without straying from the same basic framework, at least in the US.

--

I enjoy seeing these crew succession discussions as an observer. I first took interest in Chicago from the Family Secrets case because of how the crews were described and how they interacted as part of the larger Chicago family. I think we'd all agree that the crews in Chicago are damned interesting.

[Snakes]

B is good people, Villain. He should at least warrant a Jud Buechler role on your fantasy Chicago team!

When Basile talks about becoming underboss, it's in context with certain racket-oriented duties he was assigned. It's also not completely clear from what I read whether soldier means associate or whether he's actually saying he was a member at that time. I don't know what to say about Chicago figures throwing around the term underboss, but we know from the way Basile used it, that it doesn't translate to the #2 position in the entire Chicago family.

Chicago has traditionally used the term "underboss" to refer to anyone holding a position of authority under a capo/"boss." For example, Marcello and Zizzo were "underbosses" under Carlisi. It's basically a blanket term for the #2 of a crew. I have heard the area bosses also referred to collectively as "underbosses" and the guys at the top (e.g. Aiuppa, Cerone, Accardo) as the bosses. This is both from inside the organization and outside (FBI, law enforcement). I think it is because they don't have a set terminology to the extent that the New York families do. They just never seemed hung up on labels and terms. Not to say that differs them substantially (it doesn't really mean anything in the big picture) but it's something worth considering.

It's interesting, at least in the era I'm more familiar with (70s to the present) that you don't hear terms like "boss" or whatever thrown around as much. It's mainly names or nicknames and you as the listener can automatically tell that they are someone with power or authority just by the way their name is used within the context of the conversation, e.g., "'the Old Man' [Aiuppa] says to get rid of him." That's why I think it has always been difficult to "chart" the Outfit, at least with labels. A hierarchical chart works much better because it shows the guys on top, the next level, the level after that, etc.

[B.]

When Basile talks about becoming underboss, it's in context with certain racket-oriented duties he was assigned. It's also not completely clear from what I read whether soldier means associate or whether he's actually saying he was a member at that time. I don't know what to say about Chicago figures throwing around the term underboss, but we know from the way Basile used it, that it doesn't translate to the #2 position in the entire Chicago family.

Chicago has traditionally used the term "underboss" to refer to anyone holding a position of authority under a capo/"boss." For example, Marcello and Zizzo were "underbosses" under Carlisi. It's basically a blanket term for the #2 of a crew. I have heard the area bosses also referred to collectively as "underbosses" and the guys at the top (e.g. Aiuppa, Cerone, Accardo) as the bosses. This is both from inside the organization and outside (FBI, law enforcement).

That makes sense. Basile mentioned becoming underboss when he was given authority over specific criminal operations under his boss/captain. Thanks for the response.

[Snakes]

When Basile talks about becoming underboss, it's in context with certain racket-oriented duties he was assigned. It's also not completely clear from what I read whether soldier means associate or whether he's actually saying he was a member at that time. I don't know what to say about Chicago figures throwing around the term underboss, but we know from the way Basile used it, that it doesn't translate to the #2 position in the entire Chicago family.

Chicago has traditionally used the term "underboss" to refer to anyone holding a position of authority under a capo/"boss." For example, Marcello and Zizzo were "underbosses" under Carlisi. It's basically a blanket term for the #2 of a crew. I have heard the area bosses also referred to collectively as "underbosses" and the guys at the top (e.g. Aiuppa, Cerone, Accardo) as the bosses. This is both from inside the organization and outside (FBI, law enforcement).

That makes sense. Basile mentioned becoming underboss when he was given authority over specific criminal operations under his boss/captain. Thanks for the response.

I went back and edited more to this so I'm not sure if you saw it before your initial reply. Just wanted to let know. I always go back and add shit in after the fact.

[Frank]

If you look at testimony from someone like James Basile, he talks about being a "soldier", then an "underboss" to a "boss". He says the "bosses" then reported to a "boss of bosses". We know those terms, but when he's talking about a boss, he's referring to what the Calabrese brothers referred to as a "capo" and other sources have called a "caporegime". He said Giancana had been the "boss of bosses", but this is what we would normally call the boss. On a practical level, it's not wrong, as every captain is the boss of certain people and their boss would be in essence a boss of bosses. It's like how your manager at work is your boss, but they too have a boss. We know what Basile meant.

When Basile talks about becoming underboss, it's in context with certain racket-oriented duties he was assigned. It's also not completely clear from what I read whether soldier means associate or whether he's actually saying he was a member at that time. I don't know what to say about Chicago figures throwing around the term underboss, but we know from the way Basile used it, that it doesn't translate to the #2 position in the entire Chicago family.

Going back to the term "boss", Gentile and other early mafia sources use the term "capo" to refer to the head of the entire family, what we would now call the boss. When someone says "capo" now, we know that to mean captain. Gentile and modern members are using the same exact word to refer to different positions in the organization, but it doesn't change what those positions are. The terminology changes and different places have their own way of referring to certain positions.

I would say the same for the "#1 and #2" or "chairman" positions we've seen referenced in Chicago. Whether they're called boss or underboss, we know those positions to be the #1 and #2. Changes in the later mafia have made us think the consigliere is a #3 position below the boss and underboss, but sources show that it can be an incredibly powerful position equal to the boss of the organization who in some cases can even veto his decisions. This was especially true earlier on in history.

Beyond the consigliere, it appears the St. Louis, San Jose, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Tampa, and possibly other families had what they called a "council" of senior members, not unlike a board of directors who influenced decisions within the family. This wasn't some grandiose structure, but a way for peers to help direct family affairs, what some might call "horizontal" power. It wouldn't be surprising if Chicago had something similar earlier on that influenced their direction given it appears to have been a fixture of mafia families around the US. With the examples of Aiello teaming up with the Irish gang leaders and the inductions of non-Sicilians by the early 1920s, if we had a deeper inside look into the Chicago mafia pre-1930s, we might find other roots that bloomed into what we now call the Chicago "outfit".

--

I don't have much more to say on the non-Italians at the moment. I have seen reports from later, referencing the 1970s and 1980s, where a source (no idea who) says he believes Chicago organized crime includes non-Italian members but it specifically refers to "organized crime" (which is a broader term) and his information about the hierarchy includes only Italians and he puts the non-Italians under Italians.

From the available evidence, there is enough room for doubt that I question some of the conclusions that have been made over the years and I want to point out that this particular subject (and others brought up in this thread) are still open for interpretation. I'm not out to prove anyone wrong and close the door.

If someone wanted comprehensive information about Chicago, I wouldn't link them to this thread. Believe it or not, Villain, I would probably link them to your articles if someone asked me for information on the gritty details about Chicago. I don't care that you've made petty comments, though I hope you conduct yourself differently in the future. I would still defer to you and others if someone simply wanted to learn about Chicago.

However, if someone wanted to understand how Chicago fits into the history and wider context of the mafia, I would tell them to read this thread with an open mind and try not to come to any definitive conclusions but to consider everyone's points. This topic is called "Understanding Chicago", not "Chicago: Slam Dunk, Case Closed Forever".

--

These are the member sources who have been referenced earlier in this discussion:

5 Chicago members:
- Louis Fratto
- Butch Blasi
- Frank Calabrese Sr. (via recording)
- Nick Calabrese
- John Roselli (via Fratianno)
+ "Italian Jew" (status undetermined)

3 Los Angeles members close to Chicago:
- Frank Bompensiero (former capodecina)
- Jimmy Fratianno (former capodecina)
- Salvatore Piscopo (confidant of John Roselli)

1 Milwaukee member close to Chicago:
- Augie Maniaci

2 US bosses who were contemporaries and knew Capone personally:
- Joe Bonanno
- Nick Gentile

These member sources inside and outside of Chicago give accounts that are closer than they are different and they span different periods of time and areas of knowledge. I haven't put words in any of their mouths, but their descriptions of Chicago are fairly consistent and none of them suggest the organization was fundamentally different in the bigger picture.

If any of these sources aren't considered reliable, that is worth discussing. With any research topic there should be a hierarchy of sources. When it comes to the mafia itself, I always defer to member sources not because they're perfect but because we don't have a whole lot more to go on. If any other member sources can be added, whether they are consistent with these ones or not, I'd love to see their information. I mentioned Basile earlier, and his testimony is very interesting, especially his being tasked with entertaining "bosses" from "out of town" -- would love to see the specifics of what that meant.

By bringing in examples of other US mafia families, I am not attempting to say, "See! They're exactly like Chicago!" I bring them up because the only comparison we have for a mafia family is other mafia families. The examples I've brought up of other groups throughout this thread show us that mafia families all have unique qualities but they also follow some of the same patterns without straying from the same basic framework, at least in the US.

--

I enjoy seeing these crew succession discussions as an observer. I first took interest in Chicago from the Family Secrets case because of how the crews were described and how they interacted as part of the larger Chicago family. I think we'd all agree that the crews in Chicago are damned interesting.

From what I see in these posts is that you guys are kind of close in agreement and basically in terms of non Italian members are mainly arguing about how high the powerful non Italian can rise in the Outfit. As far as the name Outfit, I've noticed other families using that term. But for practicality, I use the term Outfit to describe Chicago LCN.

[B.]

It's interesting, at least in the era I'm more familiar with (70s to the present) that you don't hear terms like "boss" or whatever thrown around as much. It's mainly names or nicknames and you as the listener can automatically tell that they are someone with power or authority just by the way their name is used within the context of the conversation, e.g., "'the Old Man' [Aiuppa] says to get rid of him." That's why I think it has always been difficult to "chart" the Outfit, at least with labels. A hierarchical chart works much better because it shows the guys on top, the next level, the level after that, etc.

That's true. I've spent more hours than I'd care to admit analyzing Stefano Magaddino's extensive office tapes, and while he will occasionally reference formal ranks and positions, it is extremely rare to see specifics even in meetings attended exclusively by high-ranking members of his family. There is the more well-known transcript of him talking to two Bonanno leaders and in that conversation he makes plenty of references to the same ranks we all know and love, but when it came to the Buffalo family you never see him refer to terms like underboss or capodecina. The most he usually does is identify someone as a member and you have to infer that certain people hold higher rank.

From what I see in these posts is that you guys are kind of close in agreement and basically in terms of non Italian members are mainly arguing about how high the powerful non Italian can rise in the Outfit. As far as the name Outfit, I've noticed other families using that term. But for practicality, I use the term Outfit to describe Chicago LCN.

I think you're right. Everyone seems to agree there are distinctions inside of Chicago between certain figures and that those distinctions sometimes get blurry and even unimportant on a practical level. "Outfit" was a popular term for all of the midwestern mafia families, including Chicago, but it came to be used for all Chicago mafia-sponsored organized crime. It reminds me of the FBI/media term "La Cosa Nostra" getting adopted by mafia members over time even though "cosa nostra" seems to have originally been a casual way they referred to their own group. If a made member said "La Cosa Nostra" in front of me, am I going to tell him he's wrong? No way, but if he wants to have a conversation there is definitely one to be had.

[Villain]

These are the member sources who have been referenced earlier in this discussion:

5 Chicago members:
- Louis Fratto
- Butch Blasi
- Frank Calabrese Sr. (via recording)
- Nick Calabrese
- John Roselli (via Fratianno)
+ "Italian Jew" (status undetermined)

3 Los Angeles members close to Chicago:
- Frank Bompensiero (former capodecina)
- Jimmy Fratianno (former capodecina)
- Salvatore Piscopo (confidant of John Roselli)

1 Milwaukee member close to Chicago:
- Augie Maniaci

2 US bosses who were contemporaries and knew Capone personally:
- Joe Bonanno
- Nick Gentile

I never had anything personal against you and you know it pretty well. Whenever i made some mistake i always apologized to you, personally, and i always supported and still support your work...and you know how this started and its obviously still going but thats not important now...

You already mentioned all of the informers but you can also add Ralph Pierce...besides being under Alex, this guy started under the Capone mob and witnessed a lot of changes and probably knew a lot of stuff regarding the inner circle since he died in 76 or 77 i dont remember. Pierce's crew was formed mostly by Italians, including made members.

Another interesting individual is one former Capone associate, alderman and city sealer Dan Serritella who in turn was very close to the Capone bros and the old Cicero crew in general, and so he gave some pretty info regarding the 30s and 40s.

Besides Gentile who gave us some good info regarding the late 20s, we also have one non-Italian who went by the name of Mike Heitler who also gave at least a little bit information regarding the same time period. Heitler was an old time pimp and racketeer who was mainly present around W Grand Av and the Elmwood Park area. The thing was that Heitler also had interests around the Near West Side and Taylor St areas and so he had close relations with Outfit members such as Mangano, Accardo, Capezio, Belcastro and Fanelli. When Heitler was murdered in 1931, the cops searched his apartment and found his personal diary. By looking at his writings the guy was somehow illiterate but he still kept a journal.

The interesting about it is that it confirms to an extent that these fellas first belonged to one crew which later divided in two separate crews, such as Belcastro, Fanelli, Mangano and Capezio/Accardo. There are numerous newspaper reports allegedly connecting these fellas but if we consider the situation "guilty by association", well we have Heitlers diary to prove it. After his murder, Mangano, Accardo and Capezio were arrested and later released and so they took over his interests and I also theorize that maybe after some short time period or after few years, both Accardo and Capezio broke off from the Mangano group and created the Elmwood Park crew with the help of the Cerone, DeBiase and Aloisio clans and others. Fanelli belonged to Mangano, same as Belcastro who by the early or mid 30s possibly switched crews from Chinatown under D'Andrea and Roti Sr to Manganos group on Taylor St.

I also believe that Roselli gave some information during the hearings regarding the CIA connections but i highly doubt that he ever gave some info regarding their hierarchy or membership. Story goes that both Richard Cain and Chuck Nicoletti also gave some information but ive never seen anything from them.

[Villain]

Ive also seen some references like for example the terms "number two" or "relay man" being used to describe the underboss position and "the Man" to describe the top bosses such as Ricca or later Accardo.

[Villain]

I also believe that the only two families who had similar hierarchy as the Outfits were the Genovese family during one period and possibly the Pittsburgh crime family under LaRocca.

[B.]

No worries at all then, man. I definitely started this thread partially because of some conversations we've had, but this thread was more about the wider coverage I've seen about Chicago, on and off the board, including your perspective but not limited to it. There ain't many of us who are obsessed over this mafia stuff and I want to get along with everyone even if we disagree.

My comments about Chicago coverage are similar to what I've said about Canadian authors and journalists and it's no surprise that topics about Canada have a history of getting heated, too. Canada is a lot like Chicago in that we have few member sources and there are a lot of blurry lines. We have a Canadian author/journalist on the board here and I realized at one point that some of my broad comments about Canadian journalists could be taken the wrong way by him (who I greatly respect), so I do need to be more specific if I'm going to criticize entire categories of people. I am f'n grateful Chicago doesn't have a Canadian crew otherwise we'd all be dead right now.

Thanks for the feedback on sources. I mainly look at member sources, but well-placed associates can tell us a lot, too. I have been keeping tabs for a couple years on what various members say about Chicago, but I may well dig into some of those other sources, too. I have my take, but I'm learning a ton, too.

--

You know, I think there is actually a Canadian comparison here, funny enough. Sicilian mafioso Nino Calderone wrote how Calabrian-born Bonanno member Paolo Violi visited him in Sicily and they discussed the mafia. Calderone wanted little to do with Violi and he seemingly felt it was absurd that a Calabrian was in Sicily talking to him about mafia business, but at the same time Violi was a representative of an influential mafia organization and Calderone had to accept that. It sounds like Roselli was in a similar position with Humphreys, where he was a Chicago Cosa Nostra member and was not happy that his bosses were forcing him to deal with a non-Italian, but at the end of the day he had to accept that this guy was authorized by the bosses to serve in that capacity.

Yet with Violi, we know another top Sicilian mafia member visited him in Canada and updated him on high-level administration changes in Sicily. So we have one Sicilian mafia member who was insulted that a Calabrian member was talking to him like a peer, while another Sicilian mafia member went out of his way to include Violi in mafia protocol. Just shows you how even among these guys there are different perspectives and attitudes about protocol.

Another Canadian comparison is when the FBI asked the RCMP for a list of Cotroni decina members. The FBI heard there were 20 mafia members in Montreal, which the FBI understood to be Italians, but the RCMP sent them a list that included a ton of important non-Italians who held important roles in the Cotroni crew. Neither one was wrong, but the RCMP saw that these non-Italians in influential roles were important enough to include, while the FBI was just trying to add Cosa Nostra members to their files.

Cheers, Villain.

[Angelo Santino]

That’s surprising for someone who grew up in Elizabeth to not know the guys from Peterstown. Anyone I know from there, and I’m a north jersey guy, know exactly who they are. It’s almost impossible not to. The Ribera is on a dead end right by the dpw. Spirito’s is right next to cent’anni pork store, I mean it’s all in one area and they’re still out there. Outside of Elizabeth I’ve never met anyone who really knows them. Where I’m from as most know, it’s all Luke’s and west side ... that’s really it. Yea people connected to the north jersey Philly guys but aside from that it’s those two. If you’re italian American and from Bergen, Passaic, Essex counties... you know someone who’s connected somehow whether it’s family, friends , enemies, whatever. John Riggi’s niece and I grew up together but in Passaic county.

I was surprised too considering how small Elizabeth is. He doesn't follow organized crime and evidently his family hasn't brushed up against it. Maybe he was being untruthful and didn't wish to speak on it. I don't think so but then I don't know the guy personally.

[Villain]

No worries at all then, man. I definitely started this thread partially because of some conversations we've had, but this thread was more about the wider coverage I've seen about Chicago, on and off the board, including your perspective but not limited to it. There ain't many of us who are obsessed over this mafia stuff and I want to get along with everyone even if we disagree.

My comments about Chicago coverage are similar to what I've said about Canadian authors and journalists and it's no surprise that topics about Canada have a history of getting heated, too. Canada is a lot like Chicago in that we have few member sources and there are a lot of blurry lines. We have a Canadian author/journalist on the board here and I realized at one point that some of my broad comments about Canadian journalists could be taken the wrong way by him (who I greatly respect), so I do need to be more specific if I'm going to criticize entire categories of people. I am f'n grateful Chicago doesn't have a Canadian crew otherwise we'd all be dead right now.

Thanks for the feedback on sources. I mainly look at member sources, but well-placed associates can tell us a lot, too. I have been keeping tabs for a couple years on what various members say about Chicago, but I may well dig into some of those other sources, too. I have my take, but I'm learning a ton, too.

--

You know, I think there is actually a Canadian comparison here, funny enough. Sicilian mafioso Nino Calderone wrote how Calabrian-born Bonanno member Paolo Violi visited him in Sicily and they discussed the mafia. Calderone wanted little to do with Violi and he seemingly felt it was absurd that a Calabrian was in Sicily talking to him about mafia business, but at the same time Violi was a representative of an influential mafia organization and Calderone had to accept that. It sounds like Roselli was in a similar position with Humphreys, where he was a Chicago Cosa Nostra member and was not happy that his bosses were forcing him to deal with a non-Italian, but at the end of the day he had to accept that this guy was authorized by the bosses to serve in that capacity.

Yet with Violi, we know another top Sicilian mafia member visited him in Canada and updated him on high-level administration changes in Sicily. So we have one Sicilian mafia member who was insulted that a Calabrian member was talking to him like a peer, while another Sicilian mafia member went out of his way to include Violi in mafia protocol. Just shows you how even among these guys there are different perspectives and attitudes about protocol.

Another Canadian comparison is when the FBI asked the RCMP for a list of Cotroni decina members. The FBI heard there were 20 mafia members in Montreal, which the FBI understood to be Italians, but the RCMP sent them a list that included a ton of important non-Italians who held important roles in the Cotroni crew. Neither one was wrong, but the RCMP saw that these non-Italians in influential roles were important enough to include, while the FBI was just trying to add Cosa Nostra members to their files.

Cheers, Villain.

Thanks.

I dont know anything about the Canadians but wasnt there some non-Italian guy in the Rizzuto family who was allegedly also looked upon as a made member?