Understanding Chicago

[B.]

The induction ceremony is interesting, but barely relevant. I brought it up originally only to point out that many different Cosa Nostra families have dropped the ceremony when convenient and have even done so on an ongoing basis in NYC and NJ while otherwise staying Cosa Nostra organizations. The fact that Chicago was inconsistent with the ceremony actually makes them more like other Cosa Nostra organizations we know of, not less.

As mentioned already, the Bonanno and Elizabeth families both stopped doing the ceremony on their own and were the epitome of Cosa Nostra. The other families didn't use it apparently because of LE concerns and for expedience, so without any concrete sources it could be Chicago didn't use it for the same reasons.

This theory about them adopting it after NYC opened their books due to NYC influence is interesting, but unlikely without a source to confirm it. After NYC/NJ opened their books in the 1970s, the Bonanno and DeCavalcantes didn't do the traditional ceremony so that shoots down the idea that Chicago took on the ceremony post-1970s due to outside influence. Chicago's level of autonomy makes it even less likely for that to be the reason unless there is a source that confirms it. Why would Chicago be pressured to use the ceremony because of NYC politics but not the Bonanno family?

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I haven't seen the points about Joe Watts addressed from the last page. Watts carried orders from the boss to a capodecina to kill an associate of another capodecina; Michael DiLeonardo says he was inducted into the Gambino family because Watts suggested it to the leadership; Joe Watts supervised the Westies gang on behalf of John Gotti; Gotti gave Watts full authority to do as he pleased in the construction industry (arguably the Gambino family's most important interest) and could not be challenged even by other Gambino figures; Watts inherited the underboss's loanshark book; Watts had been a dinner guest at Paul Castellano's home.

Like CC's point about Rockman having influence on Scalish's successor, available evidence points to Joe Watts being a factor in John Gotti becoming boss. Watts had been close to Castellano/Bilotti, but participated in the conspiracy to murder Castellano and his support was a significant part of Gotti's plot.

I haven't seen any source that challenges Watts' position despite his non-Italian associate status. Virtually all sources are in agreement that Joe Watts was treated with the respect and influence afforded to any high-ranking member of the Gambino family and he acted accordingly. He is a relevant comparison to Cleveland's Rockman and Chicago's Gus Alex.

Stefano Magaddino was recorded in the 1960s having a discussion with his underboss and a capodecina where he discusses wanting to select one of the family's Jewish associates to "front" for the organization and help run the rackets so that the Italians can take a back seat. It didn't happen, but the idea was there.

Not sure about that Cerone bit. He is talking to a non-Italian, so "we" could very well refer to the entire underworld network controlled by the Chicago group. Is there more context that makes it clear? That is different from Humphreys and Alex clearly making a distinction between themselves and the Italians even though they were part of the inner circle.

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One of the bigger points I'm getting at is not that Chicago was more like other families, but that other families had more in common with Chicago than is typically written about and believed. Chicago took this further than any other group and while NYC's Joe Watts is a very relevant comparison to figures like Rockman and Alex, the difference is Chicago had numerous non-Italian associates like that, which normalized it even further. There is no argument from me there. But we see the same patterns play out in other groups as well and that is an important part of the conversation. I do feel there is this rebellious "Chicago is nothing like NYC" spirit to a lot of Chicago research, almost like team sports, but it's not completely founded. They're a different team but they were always playing in the same league as the other US families.

[Villain]

The Chicago LCN being within the overall Chicago Outfit is a good explanation for the difference.

The mean reason for this was the unification of all gangs and criminal organizations in Chicago during the late 20s and early 30s. Capones main mission was to unite everyone in one organization. Thats what he allegedly also said to Zerilli in Detriot and also did similar stuff with the guys in Cleveland i think. In Chicago, with the help of violence and murder, Capone and his associates absorbed the Sicilian organization on both north and west sides, followed by the leftovers from around the Chicago Heights area, and also the Irish groups from both west and south sides, the Jewish groups from the Lawndale area and also the Loop, Greeks from the Near South Side and Chinatown area and so on...so my point is that at the start of the Outfit, Capones gang represented the top or leading faction which included mainly Neapolitans and Calabrians, lesser number of Americanized Sicilians and also many non-Italians, while the old Sicilian faction came second in line and was pushed back to the W Grand Av area and they had the whole North Side for them, since from that point on the mainlanders took over the West Side area.

Capone and his guys made a close alliance with Loverdes old pals such as DeGeorge but story goes that he didnt fully trusted them and proof for that was the bloody conflict that occurred during the 40s and Capones old friends won the war for the second time. Thats the main reason on why the North Side faction never received any of the top 3 or 4 positions. By the early 70s the influence from the old Capone mob was completely gone and thats when things began changing to an extent

[B.]

Can't disagree with that, but the important point is through the process of unification, they fell under the structure and lineage of the Chicago Cosa Nostra group that already existed pre-Capone and this continued under future leaders. The mafia / Cosa Nostra was the currency of Italian-American underworld politics and it's why mainlanders throughout the entire United States, from Cleveland to Pittsburgh to Genovese/New York City, became Cosa Nostra leaders who could trace their official succession back to the Sicilians before them. They weren't part of the tradition, but they officially joined it because that was the currency.

This idea that in 1931 Capone created a brand new organization is similar to the myth of Luciano forming the five families from loosely connected Italian gangs. Luciano took over the Masseria family, which was made up mainly of men from different backgrounds, few of them traditionally mafia / Cosa Nostra, but they ultimately fell under the umbrella of Cosa Nostra, the same organization brought over by Sicilians. The same is true for Chicago under Capone, Cleveland under Milano, and Pittsburgh under Bazzano.

[Villain]

Can't disagree with that, but the important point is through the process of unification, they fell under the structure and lineage of the Chicago Cosa Nostra group that already existed pre-Capone and this continued under future leaders. The mafia / Cosa Nostra was the currency of Italian-American underworld politics and it's why mainlanders throughout the entire United States, from Cleveland to Pittsburgh to Genovese/New York City, became Cosa Nostra leaders who could trace their official succession back to the Sicilians before them. They weren't part of the tradition, but they officially joined it because that was the currency.

This idea that in 1931 Capone created a brand new organization is similar to the myth of Luciano forming the five families from loosely connected Italian gangs. Luciano took over the Masseria family, which was made up mainly of men from different backgrounds, few of them traditionally mafia / Cosa Nostra, but they ultimately fell under the umbrella of Cosa Nostra, the same organization brought over by Sicilians. The same is true for Chicago under Capone, Cleveland under Milano, and Pittsburgh under Bazzano.

We will have to completely disagree on those two points.

[B.]

Most of the muscles and fat were different, but the skin and bones were the same thing. The skin is what allowed Capone to become an official rappresentante and join the Commission, while the bones were easily recognized by Bompensiero, Fratianno, Piscopo, and Maniaci. My goal in this thread is to make sure muscle, fat, skin, and bone are all included in the conversation as they are all important to understanding Chicago.

[Confederate]

I haven't seen the points about Joe Watts addressed from the last page. Watts carried orders from the boss to a capodecina to kill an associate of another capodecina; Michael DiLeonardo says he was inducted into the Gambino family because Watts suggested it to the leadership; Joe Watts supervised the Westies gang on behalf of John Gotti; Gotti gave Watts full authority to do as he pleased in the construction industry (arguably the Gambino family's most important interest) and could not be challenged even by other Gambino figures; Watts inherited the underboss's loanshark book; Watts had been a dinner guest at Paul Castellano's home.

Joe Watts "carrying" orders from the Boss is not the same thing as Humphreys or Alex "ordering" something on their own. Clear distinction. Watts was a messenger & friend of Gotti but held no real power in the Gambino Family without Gotti. Humphreys & Alex held power on their own no matter who was the Boss. Clear distinction.

The Chicago Outfit was a different team but was in the same league. That is a good point. You should also read what Antiliar wrote because he nailed the difference in his post up above that I pointed out.

Lastly, you should also listen to CC because the same argument he made for Buffalo can be used here:
It doesn't matter how YOU think the Outfit was structured or how YOU think the Outfit "should have been" structured so they fit into an exact pattern.
All that matters is what The Outfit "thinks" about their structure & who the Outfit "considers" their actual full fledged "members". When made guys in the Outfit take orders "originated" by guys like Humphreys, Alex, Ralph Pierce, Les Kruse etc., it is quite clear that the "Outfit" considers them full fledged members even though they are not members of the National LCN. That's the bottom line that you or anyone else can never change.

[Villain]

I never saw you mention any of the Outfits informers such as Blasi or Fratto...

I agree with Confederate and I think that we are constantly hitting in a wall so it is best to leave it like this.

[Frank]

What's cone to my mind is, take Roselli for example, is that I'm sure some members of Chicago didn't like the idea of answering to an 'Outsider' , but really couldn't do much about it. I'm sure like anything else, some might have hated them.

[Antiliar]

What's cone to my mind is, take Roselli for example, is that I'm sure some members of Chicago didn't like the idea of answering to an 'Outsider' , but really couldn't do much about it. I'm sure like anything else, some might have hated them.

Since Rosselli previously answered only to the boss, Jack Dragna, this would have been a real challenge to what he was used to. Once in Chicago, depending on the source, he could have been directly under Giancana or under Ferraro. Once they were out of the picture he was under Frank La Porte.

[B.]

I never saw you mention any of the Outfits informers such as Blasi or Fratto...

I haven't combed through all of their FBI reports firsthand, but I trust Ed's Rat Trap summaries of them:

On Fratto:

The unique Chicago experience forced the organization to open itself up to working with non-Sicilians and eventually with non-Italians altogether (within limits). The Outfit has probably had more non-Italians in senior positions through its history than any other Italian-American crime group.

For that reason, the Outfit used "Jews" to manage their money and carry out their orders. Fratto suspected this was common practice in every LCN crime family.

Not sure if the "senior positions" bit is Fratto's wording, but it supports the idea that non-Italians were highly respected and influential, though it is worded in a way that suggests other "Italian-American crime groups" had non-Italians in "senior positions". Watts and Rockman don't seem at all dissimilar to these Chicago guys, both being non-Italians in "senior positions" with their respective families, but Chicago no doubt had more of them yet still had "limits" on the relationship.

The bolded points are important. There were limitations to the involvement of non-Italians and he did not feel that using "Jews" to "carry out their orders" was unique to Chicago, but "every" Cosa Nostra family. Fratto had extensive contact with other Cosa Nostra families, so he would have understood how some of them operated.

On Blasi:

Blasi didn't define Alex's role, but he clearly saw him as a step below in power from Accardo and Aiuppa. Blasi said he wasn't "one of those individuals who had been led to believe that Gus Alex is currently one of the top leaders of the organized crime in Chicago." [18] He said Alex couldn't be "admitted to the innermost circle of leadership" because he wasn't Italian.

These statements don't need much interpretation. He explicitly says there were limitations to Gus Alex's leadership role in Chicago because he wasn't Italian. This fits with what Fratianno was told by Roselli.

Since Rosselli previously answered only to the boss, Jack Dragna, this would have been a real challenge to what he was used to. Once in Chicago, depending on the source, he could have been directly under Giancana or under Ferraro. Once they were out of the picture he was under Frank La Porte.

Good information. So Roselli took orders from Humphreys, who was authorized by boss Giancana (like Watts was authorized by Gotti), but he was officially assigned to a Cosa Nostra administration member or capodecina.

[Confederate]

Since Roselli previously answered only to the boss, Jack Dragna, this would have been a real challenge to what he was used to. Once in Chicago, depending on the source, he could have been directly under Giancana or under Ferraro. Once they were out of the picture he was under Frank La Porte.

Good information. So Roselli took orders from Humphreys, who was authorized by boss Giancana (like Watts was authorized by Gotti), but he was officially assigned to a Cosa Nostra administration member or capodecina.

Ferraro died in 1964, Humphrey died in 1965. Roselli, being under LaPorte, only happened sometime AFTER Humphreys died.

[B.]

EDIT: It has been pointed out that the following reports (at least the first two) did not come from Fratto, but a possible Chicago member of Jewish heritage who snuck into the organization because of his Italian surname and kept his true ethnicity a secret. He was nonetheless an insider whose account should be considered. His desire to keep his true ethnicity a secret also shows that importance was placed on Italian heritage when it came to Chicago membership.

Had a chance to dig into Fratto's cooperation a little more. Like Maniaci in Milwaukee, Fratto says Capone was a Camorra member before joining the mafia, so that is two well-connected member sources with a Capone/Camorra reference which is interesting.

Here is Fratto's explanation of the induction process, which aside from the blood and burning card, is like any Cosa Nostra induction protocol:



Very similar to Bonanno inductions spanning decades and the DeCavalcante inductions from the 1970s/80s, plus the 1950s Lucchese example and the account of Buffalo discontinuing the traditional ceremony.

Here is what Fratto said about membership in Chicago, including a description of important non-Italians:



He makes it clear that these non-Italians were powerful among the mafia group because of "specific specialties" and their influence was great, but still not considered official members even within Chicago.

Another report from Fratto about Gus Alex:



Again we see that an important non-Italian still requires authorization from the Italian leadership.

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All of the member sources referenced in this thread so far are overall consistent in describing the Chicago organization, including the non-recognition of non-Italians as members even inside of Chicago.

[Philly d]

One thing to consider, Chicago wasn't a landing city for immigrants like NYC. Italian neighborhoods from 1880-1910 were different with each city, NYC had homogeneous ghettos whereas Chicago's Little Italys shared streets with other demographics who lived there. Meaning Chicago Italians were more familiarized with other ethnicities. To to be fair so was much of NYC, however if you were a Nick Gentile who lived in a Mafia bubble with little interaction with anyone outside of it, Chicago wouldn't be recommended.

Not that it really seems to have made a difference over all, there's never been any non-Italians granted membership. Each family maintains a degree of autonomy and there's people that exist outside of the ranks. There was a Cleveland Mafia with boss down to soldier filled with Italians. But they were at the center of a wider local criminal cartel or network or group, whatever you want to call it, which included Maishe Rockman and hundreds of non-made participants involved in things major to minor. And argubaly each family is the same in that they all had non-Italian associates.

I think what makes it confusing for many is that Alex, Rockman and Lanksky don't fit the mold of what people consider "associate" which is, in theory, the lowest level. In a perfect world a boss would only deal with his under, the under with the captains, the captains with their own crews and so on, but it rarely works that way. Everyone starts out at the bottom and as they rise they carry a circle of people around them, that link usually doesn't entirely stop once someone has reached a position. I've never seen an instance where some is made boss and says: "I only eat with Italians now." Gotti said something similar upon being boss but that was in reference to captains and soldiers and who he would fraternize with.

Lastly, Bill Roemer skullfucked us all with his Chicago version for 30 years. How much of what we think we know came from him who had an almost sexual obsession with Accardo, enough to so that he wrote a fictional Accardo vs Bonanno book for control of Las Vegas, in the end Gotti tells Joe Bonanno to concede to Joe Batters, Batters in less polite terms says: "Get the fuck out of my territory!" And in the afterlife- I shit you not- he goes into Maranzano and Capone both angry at their successors for having failed them. My god. I try to remain nonbias but sweet Jesus I could not stand him based on his books that he always put himself in as 'The Author.' I remember reading The Enforcer and hoping The Author would get killed which is unusual for me. "Hey Pissant, you're a pissant, you ain't nothing but a pissant." Please Spilotro make it stop! I'm so glad Mad Sam was pissing in his coffee every time Roemer visited, he deserved a button for that one.

chicago wasn't like other cities in that they were mixed? Thats blatantly wrong.

[Angelo Santino]

One thing to consider, Chicago wasn't a landing city for immigrants like NYC. Italian neighborhoods from 1880-1910 were different with each city, NYC had homogeneous ghettos whereas Chicago's Little Italys shared streets with other demographics who lived there. Meaning Chicago Italians were more familiarized with other ethnicities. To to be fair so was much of NYC, however if you were a Nick Gentile who lived in a Mafia bubble with little interaction with anyone outside of it, Chicago wouldn't be recommended.

Not that it really seems to have made a difference over all, there's never been any non-Italians granted membership. Each family maintains a degree of autonomy and there's people that exist outside of the ranks. There was a Cleveland Mafia with boss down to soldier filled with Italians. But they were at the center of a wider local criminal cartel or network or group, whatever you want to call it, which included Maishe Rockman and hundreds of non-made participants involved in things major to minor. And argubaly each family is the same in that they all had non-Italian associates.

I think what makes it confusing for many is that Alex, Rockman and Lanksky don't fit the mold of what people consider "associate" which is, in theory, the lowest level. In a perfect world a boss would only deal with his under, the under with the captains, the captains with their own crews and so on, but it rarely works that way. Everyone starts out at the bottom and as they rise they carry a circle of people around them, that link usually doesn't entirely stop once someone has reached a position. I've never seen an instance where some is made boss and says: "I only eat with Italians now." Gotti said something similar upon being boss but that was in reference to captains and soldiers and who he would fraternize with.

Lastly, Bill Roemer skullfucked us all with his Chicago version for 30 years. How much of what we think we know came from him who had an almost sexual obsession with Accardo, enough to so that he wrote a fictional Accardo vs Bonanno book for control of Las Vegas, in the end Gotti tells Joe Bonanno to concede to Joe Batters, Batters in less polite terms says: "Get the fuck out of my territory!" And in the afterlife- I shit you not- he goes into Maranzano and Capone both angry at their successors for having failed them. My god. I try to remain nonbias but sweet Jesus I could not stand him based on his books that he always put himself in as 'The Author.' I remember reading The Enforcer and hoping The Author would get killed which is unusual for me. "Hey Pissant, you're a pissant, you ain't nothing but a pissant." Please Spilotro make it stop! I'm so glad Mad Sam was pissing in his coffee every time Roemer visited, he deserved a button for that one.

chicago wasn't like other cities in that they were mixed? Thats blatantly wrong.

Where did I say that or what is being paraphrased?

[Antiliar]

Had a chance to dig into Fratto's cooperation a little more. Like Maniaci in Milwaukee, Fratto says Capone was a Camorra member before joining the mafia, so that is two well-connected member sources with a Capone/Camorra reference which is interesting.

Here is Fratto's explanation of the induction process, which aside from the blood and burning card, is like any Cosa Nostra induction protocol:

This isn't Louie Fratto. The informant who gave info about "The Life" was Jewish or of Jewish ancestry, but had an Italian name and came from New York in the 1920s. He was accepted by the "Italian element." Doesn't say if the Outfit was aware of his Jewish ancestry; seems like he kept it a secret. So he may actually have been a made guy. Seems confused about the timeline of older events. This is the same guy who discussed the "war" between Accardo and Vincent "The Don" Benevento and the North Side. Fratto was born in Chicago in 1907 and was a cousin of Phil Alderisio.

Aside from that, found an interesting document with Fratto being the source:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 5&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 6&tab=page

Here's Rosselli being admonished by Giancana AND Humphreys:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 20rosselli
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 0&tab=page