Understanding Chicago

[CabriniGreen]

So who made Torrio?

[motorfab]

I may be wrong but from the way I understand things I don't think he has ever been made. Or maybe after 1931

[Villain]

I think that years later he was possibly inducted by the Genoveses but Im not sure. He and Gaetano Ricci were associates since the old days

[CabriniGreen]

What was his status within Chicago then? Respected by NY? A leader in Chicago? His uncle ran the foundation that the Outfit was based on, so did this fa for into the transition of power?

Did he inherit or usurp the political connections? Is this something he competed with other gangsters for? Guys like Aiello, or any of the other mobs?

[Villain]

Torrio inherited a huge criminal empire which stretched from the Loop and Near South Side all the way down to Burnham and northwest Indiana, but he was the boss of only one group in Chicago at the time, which mainly included non-Sicilians and non-Italians.

So he was never the top boss in Chicago since at the time there were three aditional groups that operated in the same city. Druccis and O'Banions gang was very similar to the so-called Torrio mob by being multi-ethnic.The two remaining traditional Sicilian groups were headed by Merlo/Lombardo and Sanfilippo/Piazza. During one period all of these four factions cooperated between each other but later all hell broke loose.

After the assassination attempt, you can find many infos on Torrio but the main and most interesting situation for me personally was when in 1954 i think, both Torrio and Gaetano Ricci arrived in Chicago from NY to settle the alleged dispute between Ricca and Accardo which started one or two years earlier. In March 1954 some killings occurred and two months later or in May, Torrio and Ricci arrived and they allegedly succeeded in their mission. This possibly means that after three decades, Torrio was still highly respected both in Chicago and NY at the time.

[CabriniGreen]

Torrio inherited a huge criminal empire which stretched from the Loop and Near South Side all the way down to Burnham and northwest Indiana, but he was the boss of only one group in Chicago at the time, which mainly included non-Sicilians and non-Italians.

So he was never the top boss in Chicago since at the time there were three aditional groups that operated in the same city. Druccis and O'Banions gang was very similar to the so-called Torrio mob by being multi-ethnic.The two remaining traditional Sicilian groups were headed by Merlo/Lombardo and Sanfilippo/Piazza. During one period all of these four factions cooperated between each other but later all hell broke loose.

After the assassination attempt, you can find many infos on Torrio but the main and most interesting situation for me personally was when in 1954 i think, both Torrio and Gaetano Ricci arrived in Chicago from NY to settle the alleged dispute between Ricca and Accardo which started one or two years earlier. In March 1954 some killings occurred and two months later or in May, Torrio and Ricci arrived and they allegedly succeeded in their mission. This possibly means that after three decades, Torrio was still highly respected both in Chicago and NY at the time.

At this point in time, were the Gennas with them?
Near North side right? It was always a trip to me both the Irish and Italian mobs came outta Little Hell, my stomping grounds.....

[Villain]

Torrio inherited a huge criminal empire which stretched from the Loop and Near South Side all the way down to Burnham and northwest Indiana, but he was the boss of only one group in Chicago at the time, which mainly included non-Sicilians and non-Italians.

So he was never the top boss in Chicago since at the time there were three aditional groups that operated in the same city. Druccis and O'Banions gang was very similar to the so-called Torrio mob by being multi-ethnic.The two remaining traditional Sicilian groups were headed by Merlo/Lombardo and Sanfilippo/Piazza. During one period all of these four factions cooperated between each other but later all hell broke loose.

After the assassination attempt, you can find many infos on Torrio but the main and most interesting situation for me personally was when in 1954 i think, both Torrio and Gaetano Ricci arrived in Chicago from NY to settle the alleged dispute between Ricca and Accardo which started one or two years earlier. In March 1954 some killings occurred and two months later or in May, Torrio and Ricci arrived and they allegedly succeeded in their mission. This possibly means that after three decades, Torrio was still highly respected both in Chicago and NY at the time.

At this point in time, were the Gennas with them?
Near North side right? It was always a trip to me both the Irish and Italian mobs came outta Little Hell, my stomping grounds.....

I think that the Gennas were in alliance with the Merlo organization and after Merlos death, they were in conflict with the new boss Lombardo who in turn recently arrived in Chicago.

The Gennas mainly operated around the Near West Side and Taylor St, and also around the Melrose Park area. The leading Sicilian faction in Chicago first under Merlo and later under Lombardo had interests stretching from Lake County, to the Near North Side and Rush St, also around the Northwest Side and the W Grand Av area, followed by the Near West Side and Taylor St, including Cicero and they also controlled the 19th ward.

When the Genna clan saw its end, Lombardo invited Aiello to the Taylor St area and appointed him as the new underboss. Aiello previously was located on the Near North Side.

When i say the "Genna clan" im thinking of the possible made guys in those areas such as Angelo and Mike Genna, followed by Amatuna, Anselmi, Scalise etc. and they also had few satelite gangs under their rule such as the one headed by the Battaglia clan.

Joe Esposito was also a made member and also operated around the West Side, same as members from the Montana clan

[B.]

- Los Angeles member CI Salvatore Piscopo, a close friend of John Roselli, advised that Anthony Pinelli had been a "caporegime" in the Chicago family, the same term Bompensiero and Fratianno both used to describe Frank LaPorte.

- Piscopo identified the leadership of the Chicago "brugad" (borgata, a term he uses for all of the families including his own LA family) as the following circa 1930s/40s:

Boss - Paul Ricca Delucia
Other Leadership:
- Anthony Accardo
- Charles Gioe
- Louis Campagna
- Frank Diamond Maritote
- Philip D'Andrea

He also identified Frank Nitti, Nick Circella, and John Roselli as members of the Chicago "brugad".

- Piscopo said that the Los Angeles family also referred to itself as the "outfit", just like Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, St. Louis, and Milwaukee.

- Piscopo said the consigliere could vary from "minor" to "very powerful". (I may have confused Valachi's FBI interview with Piscopo in the original post -- either way it's a member source describing the range of influence the consigliere can have)

- Jimmy Fratianno's book describes Gus Alex as a "non-Italian associate" of the Chicago family. Fratianno says he was told by John Roselli that Alex is "as close as you can get to Accardo for an outsider." He said that Alex traces his involvement with the outfit to Jake Guzik, who "even Capone" listened to. Roselli told Fratianno that the Chicago family has "had a bunch of outsiders doing big jobs." This is a well-balanced description of Alex and other non-Italians: they are clearly identified as "outsiders" (non-members) but also have important duties. That is much different from having a ranking/formal position in the Chicago organization.

- Fratianno's book describes Joseph Glimco and Joseph Lombardo both as "capo" in the Chicago family. "Capo" is used interchangeably with "caporegime" by Fratianno and Bompensiero.

-

Both Bompensiero and Piscopo, who had close contact with and a high degree of knowledge of Chicago figures spanning decades, describe the Chicago Cosa Nostra family in terminology consistent with the way they describe other Cosa Nostra organizations across the US. Aside from pointing out the importance of non-Italian associate "outsiders" in performing specific duties, none of them to my knowledge describe the Chicago Cosa Nostra organization in any fundamentally different terms, structure, or other description.

In addition to his friendship with capodecina Frank LaPorte, Bompensiero traveled to Chicago in both the early 1930s with Jack Dragna, when they met with Capone and other mafia figures, as well as in the late 1960s when he traveled to Chicago with St. Louis boss Tony Giardano and met with Chicago Cosa Nostra members Felix Alderisio and Joe LNU.

Piscopo was Roselli's closest friend and trusted with the details of Roselli's true identity and family in Boston. It would appear Roselli provided Piscopo with inside information on Chicago.

Fratianno's ties to Chicago are well-known and include friendship with both Roselli and Giancana, as well as an attempt to transfer membership to Chicago that was stopped by Nick Licata.

While it has been a few years since I read the Family Secrets book, I recall Chicago member CW Nick Calabrese's testimony being fairly consistent with our general understanding of Cosa Nostra structure and membership. In fact, it was my reading of Family Secrets that first made me question much of the lore surrounding Chicago.

[B.]

For a non-LA perspective closer geographically to Chicago, Milwaukee member CI Maniaci's accounts of Chicago are also consistent with the Los Angeles member CIs:

- Maniaci describes Frank LaPorte as a "capodecina" of the Chicago family. Former Milwaukee member Frank LaGalbo transferred membership to Chicago, joining the decina of LaPorte.

- Maniaci described the hierarchy of the Chicago outfit as follows circa 1960s:
Boss - Sam Giancana
Underboss - Sam Battaglia
Capodecina:
- Felix Alderisio
- Marshall Caifano
- Frank LaPorte
- Tony Maccalucci (ph)
- Ross Prio (replaced Jim DiGeorge)

In light of the above, he described Jack Cerone as a potential successor to Giancana.

The important part of this hierarchy info is the terminology and structure. As a Milwaukee member with close ties to Illinois, we can see that his understanding of Chicago is consistent with the Los Angeles member CIs' understanding of Chicago.

- Maniaci stated that the Chicago family had become greedy over the years, focusing on earning money for a select group of leaders. However, this does not challenge the structure and fundamental nature of Chicago as a Cosa Nostra family.

- He described Battaglia and Alderisio as the go-betweens for the Chicago and Milwaukee leadership. Based on Bompensiero's info, Alderisio was also the point of contact for the St. Louis leadership and Chicago.

- Maniaci describes a number of membership transfers between the Milwaukee and Chicago families. In addition to the aforementioned LaGalbo transferring from Milwaukee to the Chicago LaPorte decina, he also describes former Chicago members who transferred to Milwaukee in the early 1930s. Later, Joe Aiello's brother Sam transferred his membership back to Chicago. This shows that the almost completely Sicilian Milwaukee family, which traces its lineage uninterrupted back near the turn of the 20th century, was "the same thing" as the Chicago family.

- Maniaci said he had never heard the term "Cosa Nostra" used in Milwaukee, but that the Milwaukee organization had once been called the "mafia" and later came to be called the "outfit" among the membership. As mentioned, I'm using Cosa Nostra in this thread for the sake of convenience and consistency, but it shows that the terminology was fluid and the important part is understanding that these terms refer to the same fundamental organization whether in Chicago, Milwaukee, Los Angeles, or NYC.

[Confederate]

- Jimmy Fratianno's book describes Gus Alex as a "non-Italian associate" of the Chicago family. Fratianno says he was told by John Roselli that Alex is "as close as you can get to Accardo for an outsider." He said that Alex traces his involvement with the outfit to Jake Guzik, who "even Capone" listened to. Roselli told Fratianno that the Chicago family has "had a bunch of outsiders doing big jobs." This is a well-balanced description of Alex and other non-Italians: they are clearly identified as "outsiders" (non-members) but also have important duties. That is much different from having a ranking/formal position in the Chicago organization.

Gus Alex was ONLY considered an "outsider" by people outside Chicago because he was not a member of the "National La Cosa Nostra". However, In Chicago, he was a full fledged member of " The Outfit" & he did have a ranking title "within the Outfit". He gave orders to other made guys. When Alex gave a order to a made guy under him, that particular guy did not care one bit how another LCN member in New York thought of Alex.

Same applied to Murray Humphreys who on tape gave a direct order to Joe Gagliano about doing something about a juror in a Court Case.

Same applied to Ralph Pierce, Les Kruse etc. These guys were full fledged members of "the Outfit" & had made guys under them. They simply were NOT recognized as made members of the "National La Cosa Nostra". There was a difference between being a ranking member of the Outfit & being a member of the National LCN.

[B.]

Back to the Aiello / Capone situation.

As mentioned, both Gentile and Maniaci agree that Capone was inducted into the Masseria family and given permission from the NYC leadership to murder Aiello. Maniaci described how Aiello hid out in Wisconsin following the St. Valentine murders and was helped by Milwaukee figures, who as a result got in "trouble" with "the Mafia". This reinforces the idea that Aiello's murder was sanctioned by the mafia leadership. If Aiello was backed by the mafia, members would be encouraged to aide him in Wisconsin, not get in trouble for it.

The Capone situation reminds me of Joey Merlino on a larger scale. Non-members Mike Ciancaglini and Merlino were a force to be reckoned with in Philadelphia and arguably had more muscle than the Stanfa regime. Their faction could have eventually ruled South Philadelphia as an "Italian gang".

When Stanfa decided to induct Merlino and Ciancaglini, his consigliere Tony Piccolo was recorded cautioning him not to do it. Inducting them as members would legitimize them. Sure enough, when Stanfa left the streets Merlino inducted his closest allies and they took over the organization. He made Ralph Natale the boss, but Merlino carried more weight and eventually became boss. Capone was a force to be reckoned with in Chicago and Masseria legitimized him by bringing him in and allowing him to induct his close allies. Gentile described Capone as the power behind LoVerde and he, too, eventually became boss.

The comparison drops off pretty quick between Merlino and Capone, but internal mafia politics have stayed consistent. When you induct someone, their defacto power becomes legitimate and the door is open. Capone received formal recognition as a mafia boss from the top bosses around the country. Merlino's acting boss could meet with the Gambino leadership 10+ years after Merlino went to prison and tell them, "Joey sends his regards." No matter how the Gambino leaders felt about Merlino, they understood what that meant.

Perfect comparison? No. But are the similarities a coincidence? No. The same mafia framework and politics are in play. Capone and Merlino both could have been "gang leaders" in the short term but they appear to have understood that mafia membership was a currency they could use to their advantage.

[MightyDR]

https://books.google.co.nz/books?redir_ ... do&f=false

In the book “Busting the Mob”, there are excerpts from Angelo Lonardo’s testimony. He says he went with Maishe Rockman to Chicago to talk to Aiuppa and Cerone about who would be the new head of the Teamsters.

When they sat down to talk, Aiuppa told Rockman to leave and he did. Turns out he thought they were there to talk about “family business” so didn’t want Rockman to hear. When he found out they were talking about the Teamsters, Rockman was allowed back.

I assume it was the same situation with non-Italians in the Outfit. There was criminal business and then there was Cosa Nostra business.

[Frank]

- Los Angeles member CI Salvatore Piscopo, a close friend of John Roselli, advised that Anthony Pinelli had been a "caporegime" in the Chicago family, the same term Bompensiero and Fratianno both used to describe Frank LaPorte.

- Piscopo identified the leadership of the Chicago "brugad" (borgata, a term he uses for all of the families including his own LA family) as the following circa 1930s/40s:

Boss - Paul Ricca Delucia
Other Leadership:
- Anthony Accardo
- Charles Gioe
- Louis Campagna
- Frank Diamond Maritote
- Philip D'Andrea

He also identified Frank Nitti, Nick Circella, and John Roselli as members of the Chicago "brugad".

- Piscopo said that the Los Angeles family also referred to itself as the "outfit", just like Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, St. Louis, and Milwaukee.

- Piscopo said the consigliere could vary from "minor" to "very powerful". (I may have confused Valachi's FBI interview with Piscopo in the original post -- either way it's a member source describing the range of influence the consigliere can have)

- Jimmy Fratianno's book describes Gus Alex as a "non-Italian associate" of the Chicago family. Fratianno says he was told by John Roselli that Alex is "as close as you can get to Accardo for an outsider." He said that Alex traces his involvement with the outfit to Jake Guzik, who "even Capone" listened to. Roselli told Fratianno that the Chicago family has "had a bunch of outsiders doing big jobs." This is a well-balanced description of Alex and other non-Italians: they are clearly identified as "outsiders" (non-members) but also have important duties. That is much different from having a ranking/formal position in the Chicago organization.

- Fratianno's book describes Joseph Glimco and Joseph Lombardo both as "capo" in the Chicago family. "Capo" is used interchangeably with "caporegime" by Fratianno and Bompensiero.

-

Both Bompensiero and Piscopo, who had close contact with and a high degree of knowledge of Chicago figures spanning decades, describe the Chicago Cosa Nostra family in terminology consistent with the way they describe other Cosa Nostra organizations across the US. Aside from pointing out the importance of non-Italian associate "outsiders" in performing specific duties, none of them to my knowledge describe the Chicago Cosa Nostra organization in any fundamentally different terms, structure, or other description.

In addition to his friendship with capodecina Frank LaPorte, Bompensiero traveled to Chicago in both the early 1930s with Jack Dragna, when they met with Capone and other mafia figures, as well as in the late 1960s when he traveled to Chicago with St. Louis boss Tony Giardano and met with Chicago Cosa Nostra members Felix Alderisio and Joe LNU.

Piscopo was Roselli's closest friend and trusted with the details of Roselli's true identity and family in Boston. It would appear Roselli provided Piscopo with inside information on Chicago.

Fratianno's ties to Chicago are well-known and include friendship with both Roselli and Giancana, as well as an attempt to transfer membership to Chicago that was stopped by Nick Licata.

While it has been a few years since I read the Family Secrets book, I recall Chicago member CW Nick Calabrese's testimony being fairly consistent with our general understanding of Cosa Nostra structure and membership. In fact, it was my reading of Family Secrets that first made me question much of the lore surrounding Chicago.

Was the statement or statements by Piscopo all one statement, or did he give info about Outfit leadership over a course of time. I find it interesting that he identified Ricca as boss and others as leaders. Then Nitti is just mentioned as a member. Does he ever mention Nitto as an ex boss or leader. Also which lore is questionable to you.

[CabriniGreen]

- Jimmy Fratianno's book describes Gus Alex as a "non-Italian associate" of the Chicago family. Fratianno says he was told by John Roselli that Alex is "as close as you can get to Accardo for an outsider." He said that Alex traces his involvement with the outfit to Jake Guzik, who "even Capone" listened to. Roselli told Fratianno that the Chicago family has "had a bunch of outsiders doing big jobs." This is a well-balanced description of Alex and other non-Italians: they are clearly identified as "outsiders" (non-members) but also have important duties. That is much different from having a ranking/formal position in the Chicago organization.

Gus Alex was ONLY considered an "outsider" by people outside Chicago because he was not a member of the "National La Cosa Nostra". However, In Chicago, he was a full fledged member of " The Outfit" & he did have a ranking title "within the Outfit". He gave orders to other made guys. When Alex gave a order to a made guy under him, that particular guy did not care one bit how another LCN member in New York thought of Alex.

Same applied to Murray Humphreys who on tape gave a direct order to Joe Gagliano about doing something about a juror in a Court Case.

Same applied to Ralph Pierce, Les Kruse etc. These guys were full fledged members of "the Outfit" & had made guys under them. They simply were NOT recognized as made members of the "National La Cosa Nostra". There was a difference between being a ranking member of the Outfit & being a member of the National LCN.

I guess B. is saying they are more like Apples McIntosh or Joe Watts.
Also, that the Outfit technically, ( or maybe functionally is a better word) wasnt structured any differently than the other crime families.

( Question here... Was there ever an official Chicago consigliere? )

I think after all the wars between the ethnic gangs, the Outfit absorbed the best of the guys left?

So the dispute is about Humphreys, Guzik, Alex and all the rest?

Heres a question.... after the wars and consolidation happened where they absorbed these different ethnicities, did they, "initiate" any NEW gangsters not of Italian origin?

Say after, 1940... were there any new members of the Outfit accepted that wernt Italian?

Like there's a difference between them absorbing the " Rest of the Best", so to speak, of the remnants of gangs like Moran or O'Donnell, and them making an Irish or Jewish guy in the 50s or 60s, right?


Maybe this is actually where the Tom Hagen character came from, like amongst the Corleones hed be recognized, treated no different than a member, but not by another family.

The Merlino comparison is interesting... what did he say? " We would have made ourselves...." they dont recognize us, but we dont care..." He said these things right?

[CabriniGreen]

I think guys like Confederate are saying men like Guzik or Humphreys arnt like, say... Burt Kaplan, or the Jewish guy Casso replaced Pappadio with, or these other associates the mob makes money with and does business with.

Hes saying a Humphreys could give a murder order to a made Italian, and that guy HAD to follow the order. He couldnt go," Who the fuck are you, you Welsh prick, I'll check with my capo first"....

B. is saying, there is no way a Humphreys would ever be allowed in a High Level Cosa Nostra sitdown between made men within the greater structure of Cosa Nostra nationally.

To my eyes, both are true. Is this what the clarifications are?