Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Pogo The Clown]

All of which has been addressed again and again but you refuse to accept it.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

I'm confident we're going to get a definitive answer in time, confirming or denying its existence. If and when if turns out its BS I'm fully prepared to admit that I was wrong, period, no buts. Would you guys be able to do the same if it goes the other way? Sure, there'd be some posters who couldn't help getting in a jab at your being wrong but the mature ones wouldn't. I wouldn't ask you to eat crow but I would ask you to consider in the future, the importance of mafia culture and what they consider to be what. Not as a replacement or a invalidation for the Viability Theory but as an extra lens to view things through. It's useful in understanding how and why a Joe Loose, D'Elia etc can be recognized as bosses. Anatomy and Physiology, go hand in hand but they're not the same thing.

Your post is an exemplary example of maturity Chris.
I admire and mirror your sentiment.

Have they said anything about the membership, structure and activities on the US side?
Pogo

Regarding “structure.” Prosecutors, from the Morena tapes, announced in court that Leonard Falzone reorganised the family somewhat in 2014, and that there is at least one captain in Canada, so we can assume there is at least one captain in Buffalo unless Joe Jr. is directly in charge of them. Prosecutors also alleged that other crime families in NY were contacted about the promotion, indicating that there is a structure in place that allows for communication between high-ranking organised crime figures in NY. I doubt Vincent LoScalzo or some other defunct boss could reach out to the bosses in NY. So that’s some structure there, as well as enough of a structure to allow for one making ceremony, and other planned making ceremony in the works.

Disregarding Gohns other astute (and noticeably ignored by yourself’s responses) I have just one question concerning this paragraph of Gohns.



Is the prosecutor lying Pogo?

[gohnjotti]

But, with all of that in mind, I’m still taking what Canadian prosecutors say as fact, for now, because if we can’t trust LE to separate fact from fiction, then a lot of what we know about the Canadian mob can be called into question.

Don't think the RCMP or prosecutors made those claims. Read the article that started this. It clear from the wording that reorganization, resurgence and 30 made members are the words of the writers based on their own interpretations and speculation.


https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sh ... falo-mafia

Pogo

It's not interpretations and speculation.
The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated as the last reputed boss, Leonard (The Calzone) Falzone, was ailing. He died in 2016.
- Directly from police evidence. No way they would pull Falzone's name out of their ass for no good reason. Canadians don't know or care who Falzone is. Perhaps the National Post added Falzone's frequently-circulated nickname by themselves, but I can't see why they would throw a name out if it wasn't in court papers.

Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.”

- Again, no interpretation of speculation. "According to documents." "Alleged named 'captain'".

The mobsters, the documents allege, were clear that Todaro held the reigns of power within the re-emergent Buffalo organization; the men said that nobody became a member without going through Todaro first. They said a mobster in the area was either under Todaro or they needed to pack their bags and leave.
- "The documents allege." "The men said that" "They said a." It's clear that these are directly taken from the court documents, and are a lot more than interpretation and speculation.

Soon after Violi was allegedly made Underboss, according to the documents, at least three of the families had already been told. Michael (Mikey Nose) Mancuso, the boss of the Bonanno Family knew, the documents say, and the Genovese Family and the Colombo Family also had been told.

- Again, "according to the documents." "The documents say." This is a lot more than interpretation or speculation. Why would the National Post make these things up?

The news apparently flowed both ways between New York and Buffalo. After the informant was “made,” a mobster named John “Porky” Zancocchio had allegedly told mobsters in Buffalo, the informant told Violi.

- "Zancocchio had allegedly told mobsters" "The informant told Violi." Again, a lot more than interpretation or speculation.

[CabriniGreen]

@ gohnjotti

Those topix forums actually had some fascinating post about Canada and the Rizzutos and as well as Buffalo....

Some great research.... You are the Upstate NY Guru...

[SonnyBlackstein]

But, with all of that in mind, I’m still taking what Canadian prosecutors say as fact, for now, because if we can’t trust LE to separate fact from fiction, then a lot of what we know about the Canadian mob can be called into question.

Don't think the RCMP or prosecutors made those claims. Read the article that started this. It clear from the wording that reorganization, resurgence and 30 made members are the words of the writers based on their own interpretations and speculation.


https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sh ... falo-mafia

Pogo

It's not interpretations and speculation.
The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated as the last reputed boss, Leonard (The Calzone) Falzone, was ailing. He died in 2016.
- Directly from police evidence. No way they would pull Falzone's name out of their ass for no good reason. Canadians don't know or care who Falzone is. Perhaps the National Post added Falzone's frequently-circulated nickname by themselves, but I can't see why they would throw a name out if it wasn't in court papers.

Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.”

- Again, no interpretation of speculation. "According to documents." "Alleged named 'captain'".

The mobsters, the documents allege, were clear that Todaro held the reigns of power within the re-emergent Buffalo organization; the men said that nobody became a member without going through Todaro first. They said a mobster in the area was either under Todaro or they needed to pack their bags and leave.
- "The documents allege." "The men said that" "They said a." It's clear that these are directly taken from the court documents, and are a lot more than interpretation and speculation.

Soon after Violi was allegedly made Underboss, according to the documents, at least three of the families had already been told. Michael (Mikey Nose) Mancuso, the boss of the Bonanno Family knew, the documents say, and the Genovese Family and the Colombo Family also had been told.

- Again, "according to the documents." "The documents say." This is a lot more than interpretation or speculation. Why would the National Post make these things up?

The news apparently flowed both ways between New York and Buffalo. After the informant was “made,” a mobster named John “Porky” Zancocchio had allegedly told mobsters in Buffalo, the informant told Violi.

- "Zancocchio had allegedly told mobsters" "The informant told Violi." Again, a lot more than interpretation or speculation.

@Pogo:
Unless you are able to refute this post, and do so empirically, then any claim you make that’s it’s the media interpreting, not LE concluding, Buffalo’s stated reemergence are... just your word.

Ball, your court dude.

State your case that this is ‘media spec’ and not LE’s position.

[gohnjotti]

@ gohnjotti

Those topix forums actually had some fascinating post about Canada and the Rizzutos and as well as Buffalo....

Some great research.... You are the Upstate NY Guru...

I am most definitely not! That honour goes to NickleCity. I don’t know dick about dick.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I don’t know dick about dick.

Don’t make me start a poll to force you to adopt that as your new signature/tag line.

I’ll do it. I’ll stand up!

Do it sir

[gohnjotti]

I don’t know dick about dick.

Don’t make me start a poll to force you to adopt that as your new signature/tag line.

I’ll do it. I’ll stand up!

Do it sir

It's true! All I know about Buffalo are facts that I googled during this long-running debate of viability. NickleCity is the one delving into obituaries and court filings and political connections.

[CabriniGreen]

@ gohnjotti

Those topix forums actually had some fascinating post about Canada and the Rizzutos and as well as Buffalo....

Some great research.... You are the Upstate NY Guru...

I am most definitely not! That honour goes to NickleCity. I don’t know dick about dick.

Ooh shit!! My bad NickelCity, I was thinking of the researchers on here who have established themselves as specialist. I was thinking of guys like you gohnjotti, Chris on the early mafia, Villian and the Chicago guys, chin with Philly, I was thinking Nickel is like you guys with Buffalo, y'all were on my mind when I made the post.. Sorry about that.... Lol

Great shit NickelCity!!!

[gohnjotti]

@ gohnjotti

Those topix forums actually had some fascinating post about Canada and the Rizzutos and as well as Buffalo....

Some great research.... You are the Upstate NY Guru...

I am most definitely not! That honour goes to NickleCity. I don’t know dick about dick.

Ooh shit!! My bad NickelCity, I was thinking of the researchers on here who have established themselves as specialist. I was thinking of guys like you gohnjotti, Chris on the early mafia, Villian and the Chicago guys, chin with Philly, I was thinking Nickel is like you guys with Buffalo, y'all were on my mind when I made the post.. Sorry about that.... Lol

Great shit NickelCity!!!

[CabriniGreen]

I'm saying you shouldn't lump all these different cases (OTremens and Bongiovanni) and their figures into one huge Buffalo-Todaro operation since they both inolved several separate operations involving several different groups (including non-IOC groups).


Pogo

Just for clarification... You are right, we shouldn't lump Bongiovanni in with the Violis. But keeping the same energy, you can't keep lumping the Gambino portion of Otremens in with the Violis operations, as they were SEPARATE investigations, by two different LE agencies, who most likely discovered at some point they shared the same informant, and could use him to facilitate indictments in both cases..

You can't say, " don't lump these cases together to make a point", and then lump some cases together to make your point.....

[Angelo Santino]

Rochester is the prime example. You had a Boss, an induction ceremony, a drug ring with ties to the Bonannos, ties to Cleveland members, etc years after the Feds wrote off the family. Almost a carbon copy of what we are discussing now. But I don't recall the Feds releasing any statement after the Marotta case to reaffirm that their position was the family was still defunct.


In the Scranton and Rockford case you had Bosses indicted. Both with ties to members in other families. No statement after those cases either that I can recall. If they didn't release statements after any of these busts why would they suddenly do so for Buffalo especially when it was a Canadian busts by Canadian LE?


Pogo

Yeah, and Rochester seems like a prime example of a group still being active within the mafia because the Bonannos recognized it as such which gives it significance. They don't involve themselves in Latin King promotions. According to the informant twenty members attended including a professor. That to me implies there was still an organization but it doesn't matter what I think because the Bonannos viewed Rochester as being an organization. As they apparently do with Buffalo today. if we've reached a point where external academics and investigators are the definitive source of intel while the mafia and its own members' interactions and operandi are dismissed as elite academic hogwash then wow. That's an astounding argument to me.

The feds never came out and officially said they were wrong about Salerno either. After these so called "final and definitive" nail in the coffin cases in these cities, what do you think their remaining members do? Do you think they hang up their hat or move forward in a diminished state? I agree that without further information on these 20-30 year dormant cities we conclude they are gone, but with cities like Rochester and Buffalo where information surfaces, it raises the potential for it still existing up to that point. That's not the same argument as them making a turnaround and growing exponentially. If we're going to write off these groups as residual activity because they're a shell of what they were then why not write off the entire American LCN post 2000 as residual activity from the 1900's?

Maybe in the future they won't make any Buffalo statement. Maybe they indict Joe Todaro as a co-conspirator in a drug transaction without ever mentioning the Mafia. Wouldn't that stir shit up here?

[gohnjotti]

Maybe in the future they won't make any Buffalo statement. Maybe they indict Joe Todaro as a co-conspirator in a drug transaction without ever mentioning the Mafia. Wouldn't that stir shit up here?

I was just thinking the same thing, that Todaro Jr. will get busted for refusing to testify or something, just vague enough to keep the debate going. Honestly though, based on what we’ve seen come out of the Buffalo FBI recently and based on all the political evidence amassed by NickleCity, I have a feeling that we’re going to see some corruption/bribery/fraud stuff before we see any bread and butter loansharking or gambling type activities. One thing I have to agree with Pogo and Wiseguy about is that I don’t think the Buffalo mob is very “boots on the ground” active. I doubt they’ve got clubs and hangouts and are slapping people for shylock debts. It was the demise of the Todaro family’s union control in the 2000s that caused their apparent death, so any sort of rebound that they apparently executed in 2014 has to be reliant on some sort of similar con, unless it was all drug trafficking from Canada. If that’s the case, it makes the Todaro mob more of a drug syndicate than a crime family, which might be exactly why the Todaro crime family was called a “former LCN organisation” by those scholarly papers posted last year.

[B.]

Rochester is a strange example because it appears they were never recognized as an official family. Even if the Bonannos did officially recognize them (where does that info come from, by the way?), that isn't the same as the Commission or other NYC leaders recognizing them. During that period, the Bonannos didn't have a seat on the Commission and we know the Commission was arbitrating issues in Buffalo and Cleveland. Rochester would have required recognition from the Commission to be a family, which to the best of our knowledge they didn't receive.

As we talked about in the Rochester / Bonanno thread, if it's true that some Rochester soldiers were formally affiliated with the Bonanno family, it would have likely been because the Rochester family wasn't recognized and members of that group would have to be under Buffalo or the Bonannos to receive formal recognition from other groups.

So that's an important distinction between Rochester and Buffalo -- Rochester was never officially recognized by the national mafia leadership, while Buffalo is currently recognized. Whether that has any impact on the ability for a group to sustain itself is another question, but I would argue it does. Being recognized as a mafia family by other mafia families is a source of pride, especially to multi-generation members. If a group is not recognized as a mafia family, no matter how many members they induct and captains they promote, they are not much different in that moment from black gangsters using mafia terms for their own gangs.

What first turned the tide against Joe Bonanno within his own family in the mid-1960s was the Commission sending word out for other mafia families to stop recognizing Bonanno members. Up to that point, Bonanno is said to have had majority support in his family, but as soon as the Commission stopped recognizing the membership there was a massive shift and members turned against Bonanno. This would have been a bigger deal to a 1960s NYC mafia family that was constantly associating with other NYC families in their prime, but there is a long history of similar politics having an impact outside of NYC.

We can see in the modern Buffalo family that Domenico Violi bragged on tape about how he was approved as underboss by NYC leaders. Even if the NYC leaders told Todaro, "Canada? What are you asking me for? Do what you want," and Todaro translated it to Violi as, "They love you! In fact, they said they're honored to make history with you. Mikey Nose told me to personally congratulate you," it was still important for Todaro and Violi, the boss and underboss, to receive recognition/approval from NYC. No different from Scarfo reaching out to the NYC leadership for their blessing in replacing Merlino with Leonetti as underboss decades earlier. Speaking of Philly, they were unrecognized for a period of time and we can see from the Stefanelli tapes that it was important to the Philly leadership to rekindle and maintain formal ties with NYC families.

With Violi, this wasn't just a meaningless formality. He didn't operate in a vacuum after receiving approval/recognition from NYC. Soon after receiving the approval/recognition of NYC leaders, he met with a group of NYC members, attended their induction ceremony, and began doing business and discussing his mafia family with the CI Bonanno member. That is different from Todaro and Violi receiving word from NYC and saying, "They like us. They really like us!" and then going back to doing what they always do by themselves -- when Violi was inducted and promoted to underboss, they immediately put this to use by introducing him to NYC members visiting Hamilton. Both groups saw the value and importance in these formalities and put them to use.

I don't know how you'd measure whether or not formal recognition is an important factor in a criminal group's ability to keep operating in their own area, but we know formal recognition is politically crucial to a mafia family's survival within the network, and it's the network that keeps the mafia alive. Having recognition is important to someone whose entire identity is based on mafia membership and it's just as important to the mafia family itself. If Rochester didn't receive recognition from NYC, then they can't truly be compared to Buffalo even if they were going through some of the same motions (i.e. inducting members, promoting members).

[Pogo The Clown]

It's not interpretations and speculation.

I'm not talking about the basic facts but the conclusions reached from those facts. Read it again. "Suggest a revaluation", "suggest a resurrection", "seemed to begin", etc. It is clear that these are the writer's interpretation. Either way the point is moot since no one in Canda, LE or otherwise, is going to have a better grasp of the current state of Buffalo than the Buffalo FBI Field Office and other state and local LE investigating Buffalo.,

According to the informant twenty members attended including a professor. That to me implies there was still an organization

That was in reference to Marottas induction ceremony in the early 1970s.


Pogo