Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Lupara]

Collect all the Buffalo articles and OTremens indictment now, print them out, and put them in a scrapbook while you can.

Already did, and drooled over it too. [emoji2]

[Angelo Santino]

When Bruno went from soldier to boss, what did that tell you? When Gotti was made and instantly upped to captain, what did that tell you? I'm sure there are many other examples.

Did Philadelphia or the Gambinos have relative inactivity over the previous 20 years and no longer considered viable by the FBI?

So basically we have a defunct active family here with a boss, underboss, captain and at least a dozen members left, correct? A glorified crew that is working closely with the Bonannos and some factions in Ontario and Montreal. Sounds pretty interesting to me.

Collect all the Buffalo articles and OTremens indictment now, print them out, and put them in a scrapbook while you can.

Philadelphia 1987-1991, to quote Scarfo jr: "Merlino has an entire crew and I got Uncle Tony." I suspect if Buffalo was 'reconstituted' rather than just 'still there' through the 2000's that drugs would be at the center of it. If Tommy Noto's numbers on Buffalo's level of drug activity is true, then it puts anything Philly has done with localized gambling to shame over the past 20 years.

[johnny_scootch]

Wow wtf happened here? I thought we agreed to let sleeping dogs lie!

I read the last couple pages and got a hearty laugh out of Gohnjotti asking wiseguy if he read the national post article, that was classic.

My advice to basically everyone is to step off this merry go round, you'll only go in circles arguing with wiseguy. It's his favorite ride in the park but honestly its not worth the price of admission. Your time would be better spent banging your head against a brick wall.

[TommyNoto]

Why are you speculating and trying to talk down to us when we are only reciting info from directly from Canada and US law enforcement. Let’s keep it to the facts as outlined by LE

Yes, let's keep it to the facts outlined by law enforcement. You copy and pasted some info involving the OTremens case but you keep essentially attributing the entire operation (including conspiracy amounts) to Buffalo alone.

Yes that’s the topic of the thread.

But what interests me about Buffalo is whether NY families are using them as their drug wholesalers which is very interesting ( seems to be the case ) . Same with Buffalo IOC buying off a DEA agent , fascinating shit IMO and possible why they have recently become a major wholesale of all drugs. My total guess is their LE associates has provided them a big strategic advantage over other distribution orgs . The open DEA corruption investigation is pretty incredible and the only other recent DEA case i know involved major Columbia operations. Anxiously waiting how that investigation ends up.

Not sure why your still here from a knowledge / discussion standpoint ). We understand you feel Buffalo family is defunct with no admin, crews, major $ making abilities or making ceremonies so you aren’t adding any value to discussion . Just let it go man so we can all discuss these events.

[cavita]

I wanna be an FBI agent when I grow up!

[gohnjotti]

Basically defunct = enough cash, even if it’s from drug trafficking alone, to incentivise two former Buffalo bosses (Falzone and Todaro) to come back into the fold.

Basically defunct = enough potential for aspiring members, like Violi’s brother, to debate whether to join the Bonannos or Buffalo.

Basically defunct = enough prestige for a powerful Canadian drug lord and second-generation monster to decide to join them, and accept a promotion to underboss. Remember Violi isn’t some Joe Schmo. He has been under investigation since the 1990s, with links to police corruption and Mafia warfare.

I realize you and some others here are very impressed with some of the recent news come out of Buffalo. It reminds me of posters years ago after the 2006 gambling bust in Detroit. I wonder what you all will say a decade from now when little or nothing or else has happened with Buffalo? I'm guessing much the same as those who talked about Detroit back then. Crickets.

I have never tried to claim that the Buffalo mob's revival has been successful, nor have I tried to claim that they will exist in ten years.
I'm saying, at the time of the 2017 indictment, the family was active.

My advice is to enjoy the ambiguity while it lasts.

I'm trying to enjoy it, but you're not making it easy

Couldn’t you admit that you are being a bit loose with the term “basically defunct?” I mean, don’t you think the Buffalo mob in 2017 was making more money than the DeCavalcante family in 2010, whose acting boss walked into a pizzeria in a hamfisted attempt to collect weekly protection? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 had a bit more formality and adherence to LCN rules compared to Philly in the 1990s, who were promoting guys directly from associate to boss? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 were operating at a larger, more sophisticated scale than the DeCavalcante family with Stango in 2015?

No, I'm not being loose with the term. It's the position of the FBI.

Is it? Since when? Because, according to the National Post article, an FBI spokesman declined to comment. So currently there's no position by the FBI. Do you know who does have a position on the family? The RCMP! Woah. Maybe we should go with their judgement for now, considering they're the people that investigated the family's underboss for two years and had a wired informant close to the underboss tape-recording discussions about the family.

I haven't seen the incoming receipts of either the DeCavalcante family or mobsters in Buffalo. I do know the FBI still considers New Jersey viable. And, even though it is small and weak, looking at the last 20 years, it looks like a powerhouse compared to Buffalo.

I am not saying the DeCavalcante family is weaker than Buffalo. Earlier in the big Buffalo thread, you dismissed the charges as a dying breath of the family. Dead cat bounce was the term Pogo used. I'm arguing that Violi was, at the very least, a lot more successful in his rackets than a lot of mobsters from families that are indeed still "viable." Yes, there are brokesters and earners in every family, but I don't think you can argue the Buffalo Mafia is dead because the rackets that used to sustain it are gone.

Philadelphia has never ceased to be a viable family and has had ongoing activity. Not so with Buffalo. And both New Jersey and Philadelphia are considerably larger than what's left in Buffalo.

Agreed. Buffalo indeed ceased to be a viable family. But, as far as Bonanno soldier Vincenzo Morena could gather, they - I don't how how many people "they" is, but it at least includes former Buffalo LCN acting bosses Leonard Falzone and Joseph Todaro - decided, at some point, to re-establish themselves as a Mafia organization.

And I mean, why not? The heat from the 1990s and 2000s is gone. People are getting out of prison. Probation is expiring. Power struggles in Canada apparently left an opening for the former Buffalo-aligned mobsters in the region to re-establish themselves. If there's a will, there's a way. Court papers say Todaro re-established the family by reaching out to its former members and offering them, without much of a choice, an entry back into the family. It's unknown how much of the dozen-or-so members of the family said "Sure thing, Joe," and how many said "Fuck it, I'm retired."

I'm surprised you're trying to draw parallels with the Colombos, New Jerey, and Philadelphia.

And I'm surprised you were trying to draw parallels with Detroit and Rochester.

I agree and great Stago comparison , the Todaro family are certainly no mickie mouse drug dealer . Who on NY today is selling 250 kilos or 250,000 pills to basically 1-2 customers to. They guys are doing million dollar deals and moving serious weight we haven’t seen NY handle in a long time

There you go again with the hype and horseshit. Show me something beyond the OTremens case. So far, this was a one off joint operation that involved Buffalo guys and two NY families.

Wiseguy, earlier I was in the anti-Buffalo camp, and my message was this: Show me something that proves there is still activity. IIRC, that was your message too. Well, the RCMP granted our wish and gave us an arsenal of evidence which checks all the boxes needed for a family to viable, and now you've moved the goal posts. "Show me something beyond the OTremens case." The OTremens case proves everything that me and you used to argue. It proves organized criminal activity. It proves a traditional Cosa Nostra structure. It proves ongoing making ceremonies. It proves recognition from New York. What more do you want, other than a handprinted "Seal of Viability" from the FBI?

And are you really going to try and argue that Buffalo has larger drug operations than the NY families? If so, you're credibility just went to shit.

Wasn't arguing that, was only dismissing the notion that Violi's crimes were penny ante.

Exactly, we have seen far more disorganization and petty crimes than this. Colombo family acting boss Ralph DeLeo was moving only a couple of kilograms of coke at a time, and coordinating it all through his cell phone. Violi's organization was far larger.

Based on what? Once again, you can't talk about "Violi's organization" when it was a joint operation with two NY families.

Based on RCMP files dating back to the 1990s and everything that former RCMP agent on the forum was saying.

The Colombo family has far more members and associates than what's left in Buffalo. Compare the indictments against the Colombos over the past 20 years to those in Buffalo.

Don't worry, I'm well aware of the state of the Colombo family, and I have never tried to compare the two families' membership. That was all you. I was comparing the fact that there is evidence of La Cosa Nostra organizations reaching out to wayward members and bringing them back into the fold. The Colombos did it in 2010 with a handful of renegade members, and the Todaros did it in 2014.

Would anyone argue that buffalo might be more active than detroit at this point?

Not necessarily. Buffalo has simply had some more recent residual activity from what's left there.

Exactly. That's the notion that I'm disputing. That hundreds of kilograms of cocaine being smuggled across the border, local police corruption, administrative changes, making ceremonies, and a drug-trafficking alliance with another crime family is "residual activity."

I mean... look at it this way. In 2009, Francesco Guarraci was promoted to acting boss of the DeCavalcante family. Now, there doesn't appear to have been much left at this point. He tried to strong-arm a local pizzeria owner into giving up his business, and hired associates from other families to do it. Residual activity. A last-ditch effort by Guarraci to make cash. Not a viable criminal enterprise. Since then, how many DeCavalcante family busts have their been? There was a loansharking charge against a DeCav soldier working with some New York guys. Eh, no different to other last-ditch efforts made by members of the LA mob, the Trafficante family, the New Orleans family, or the Scranton family to align themselves with other mobsters from viable families. Then, in 2015, the DeCavalcante consigliere and a capo were charged with racketeering, alongside some pretty low-ball crimes. This capo was opening a brothel. His crew were smalltime drug dealers. And when they wanted somebody whacked - better yet, an unsanctioned hit on another crime family member - they outsourced it to a biker gang, presumably because they didn't have the muscle to do it themselves. That reeks of "residual" activity. If you get all the indictments from the DeCavalcante family in the past decade - all three of them - and compare it to the OTremens case, then it becomes clear that the DeCavalcante family are in the same ballpark as Buffalo, whether you like it or not. Joseph Todaro Jr. held down a full-time job running his successful pizzeria business while apparently running the crime family. Francesco Guarraci worked a full day in construction, whether it was a mobbed-up union job or not.

So no, comparing the DeCavs and the Buffalo Mafia over the past ten years is not apples and oranges.

But what do we label someone like that? Who remains connected but inactive from daily activity? Do we take them off the chart or leave them on? If we see this through the prism of a criminal gang its easier to just call him inactive but if we view it as a criminal freemasonry we'd consider him.

As long as he's a made member who hasn't flipped or died, he would be on the chart. Individual membership isn't the question here but rather the state of the overall family.

I thought so too, it remains a vital part of it, but there's more to what makes the mafia the mafia than the hierarchy. There's marriages, hometown affiliations transplanted nationally, it's just as much a social organization than it is a criminal one, even after a century.

And if you want to consider a handful of old members playing shuffelboard in Tampa all day a family, be my guest. But that doesn't really reflect reality.

We both know that's not the case for Buffalo.

Like I said, that's a move for you and makes me think there's still hope for Detroit.

On the contrary, as I said above, Detroit should be a cautionary tale to all who are currently on the Buffalo bandwagon.

And the cautionary tale is what?

[SonnyBlackstein]

I do find it interesting how Wiseguy, the feds are unquestionable, yet the RCMP should be 100% dismissed with zero credibility.

Cognitive dissidence at its finest.

[NickleCity]

Agreed. Buffalo indeed ceased to be a viable family. But, as far as Bonanno soldier Vincenzo Morena could gather, they - I don't how how many people "they" is, but it at least includes former Buffalo LCN acting bosses Leonard Falzone and Joseph Todaro - decided, at some point, to re-establish themselves as a Mafia organization.

Can you remind me what article that was in... I want to go back and relook at it.

[TommyNoto]

I do find it interesting how Wiseguy, the feds are unquestionable, yet the RCMP should be 100% dismissed with zero credibility.

Cognitive dissidence at its finest.

It is the FBI speaking . The RCMP would not make any statements that would jeopardize their relationship with the FBI.

[gohnjotti]

Agreed. Buffalo indeed ceased to be a viable family. But, as far as Bonanno soldier Vincenzo Morena could gather, they - I don't how how many people "they" is, but it at least includes former Buffalo LCN acting bosses Leonard Falzone and Joseph Todaro - decided, at some point, to re-establish themselves as a Mafia organization.

Can you remind me what article that was in... I want to go back and relook at it.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sh ... -mafia/amp

[quote=SonnyBlackstein post_id=140177 time=<a href="tel:1582772472">1582772472</a> user_id=171]
I do find it interesting how Wiseguy, the feds are unquestionable, yet the RCMP should be 100% dismissed with zero credibility.

Cognitive dissidence at its finest.

It is the FBI speaking . The RCMP would not make any statements that would jeopardize their relationship with the FBI.
[/quote]
Not to mention that the OTremens case was a “parallel but separate” investigation to the FBI’s one, which directly named the “Todaro crime family” in their Justice Department press release.

[Angelo Santino]

I thought so too, it remains a vital part of it, but there's more to what makes the mafia the mafia than the hierarchy. There's marriages, hometown affiliations transplanted nationally, it's just as much a social organization than it is a criminal one, even after a century.

And if you want to consider a handful of old members playing shuffelboard in Tampa all day a family, be my guest. But that doesn't really reflect reality.

It was the Gambinos under Junior Gotti, not myself, that considered the old Tampaneans playing shuffleboard to be a Family. As was the case with D'Elia, Joe Loose and San Francisco. It's their organization and it appears they have their own definition of what's active and what isn't that does't always concur with what outsiders think.

[Pogo The Clown]

Since when? Because, according to the National Post article, an FBI spokesman declined to comment. So currently there's no position

The "no comment" is the standard Fed reply to most media requests. Shouldn't read into that that the Feds have suddenly changed their stance on Buffalo.

That's the notion that I'm disputing. That hundreds of kilograms of cocaine being smuggled across the border, local police corruption, administrative changes, making ceremonies, and a drug-trafficking alliance with another crime family is "residual activity."

It is similar to Cleveland in the late 90s/early 2000s. You had a making ceremony, members and associates involved in a cross country multi kilo cocaine ring from Cleveland to California which I believe involved a former cop, you had that car theft ring connected to Rochester guys as well as some fraud scams in connection with the Chicago Outfit. But at the end of the day it was residual activity from the last remnants rather that some Cleveland resurgence or a fully structured viable organization.

mean... look at it this way. In 2009, Francesco Guarraci was promoted to acting boss of the DeCavalcante family. Now, there doesn't appear to have been much left at this point. He tried to strong-arm a local pizzeria owner into giving up his business, and hired associates from other families to do it. Residual activity. A last-ditch effort by Guarraci to make cash. Not a viable criminal enterprise. Since then, how many DeCavalcante family busts have their been? There was a loansharking charge against a DeCav soldier working with some New York guys. Eh, no different to other last-ditch efforts made by members of the LA mob, the Trafficante family, the New Orleans family, or the Scranton family to align themselves with other mobsters from viable families. Then, in 2015, the DeCavalcante consigliere and a capo were charged with racketeering, alongside some pretty low-ball crimes. This capo was opening a brothel. His crew were smalltime drug dealers. And when they wanted somebody whacked - better yet, an unsanctioned hit on another crime family member - they outsourced it to a biker gang, presumably because they didn't have the muscle to do it themselves. That reeks of "residual" activity. If you get all the indictments from the DeCavalcante family in the past decade - all three of them - and compare it to the OTremens case, then it becomes clear that the DeCavalcante family are in the same ballpark as Buffalo, whether you like it or not. Joseph Todaro Jr. held down a full-time job running his successful pizzeria business while apparently running the crime family. Francesco Guarraci worked a full day in construction, whether it was a mobbed-up union job or not.

So no, comparing the DeCavs and the Buffalo Mafia over the past ten years is not apples and oranges.

No comparison. In the last 20 years the DeCavalcantes have had over 20 made members of all ranks and dozens of associates busted for a wide range of activities ranging from labor racketeering, gambling, drug trafficking, loansharking, fraud, extortion, fencing stolen property, cigarettes, murder, etc. And even with all of this activity the DeCavalcante are considered a small and weak family. So what does that say about Buffalo?

Not to mention that the OTremens case was a “parallel but separate” investigation to the FBI’s one, which directly named the “Todaro crime family” in their Justice Department press release.

They have often done this when they indict members of families they consider defunct. I'm sure it has to do with proving RICO.


Pogo

[B.]

The Violi comment about members in the area being under Todaro or told to pack their bags seems to refer to the Canadian side of the border. That's an interesting comment given he said it to a Bonanno member living in the same area.

Morena was inducted into the Bonanno family there, so we know the Todaro-Violi administration was willing to make exceptions. Seems like they invited Buffalo underboss Domenico Violi to the ceremony as a show of respect to Todaro, ala Violi's comment about people packing their bags otherwise. Given Joe Violi was given the option between Buffalo and the Bonannos, there appears to be a close relationship between elements of the Buffalo and Bonanno families and the Morena situation adds weight to the idea.

But did Todaro-Violi require more than a polite request and an invitation to the Morena ceremony, or was there more to the arrangement? Are members of other organizations aside from the Bonannos allowed to operate in the area if they get Buffalo's approval? It's worth considering this with all of the Ontario mafia murders in mind.

--

It might be better off in its own topic, but a good discussion is what the incentive would be for a long-running mafia family to stop inducting members and die out. Some small families never had much depth in the recruit department and relied on transfers and relatives, then when those guys got older and died the organization withered away by attrition. This is especially true for cities with smaller Sicilian/Italian populations. Buffalo was a larger organization with more territory and a deeper recruitment pool, so it doesn't appear the incentive to die off would come from a total lack of recruits. No doubt their pool is much smaller today and continues to get smaller, but there is still a community of Sicilian-Americans in the area who have mafia roots and maintain close relationships.

This community may not be pumping out mafia members like it did generations ago, but it recently produced corrupt State Senator Marc Panepinto (Todaro brother-in-law and son of deceased consigliere Donald Panepinto) and corrupt DEA agent Joseph Bongiovanni. If even the "respectable" guys doing their civic duty are this corrupt, I imagine we could find a handful of rougher candidates. They inducted members in Canada, so we know they are willing to hold inductions. The question we don't know is whether inductions have taken place for WNY recruits as well. If not, what would the incentive be to limit inductions and promotions to the Canadian group?

The organization may continue to be less and less sustainable, hard to imagine anything otherwise, but there was clearly a desire by the leadership to keep the group alive in recent years. That and the recognition they received from multiple NYC families are the only qualifications I need to understand that a mafia family still exists in Buffalo and Ontario.

You have to think of the term "mafia" or "Cosa Nostra" as the shell around the organization, but the organization could be anything underneath that. It could be a group of old men doing the crossword but they all took the same oath a bunch of guys in another city took and they can contact each other. It wouldn't surprise me if we found out the US side of the Buffalo family was little more than a small fraternal organization going through the motions of tradition, with significant criminal activity being an exception. Violi would obviously be an example of an active criminal on the Canadian side, but it appears criminality is not an exception there.

[CabriniGreen]

Wow wtf happened here? I thought we agreed to let sleeping dogs lie!

I read the last couple pages and got a hearty laugh out of Gohnjotti asking wiseguy if he read the national post article, that was classic.

My advice to basically everyone is to step off this merry go round, you'll only go in circles arguing with wiseguy. It's his favorite ride in the park but honestly its not worth the price of admission. Your time would be better spent banging your head against a brick wall.

I've tried to tell them multiple times.... the only conclusion I can draw is everyone actually enjoys the argument, on some level....

We cant seem to focus on the Violis, the other guys names like Massamigliano Carfana never even come up..

I've long believed the connective thread to be narcotics, but this is viewed as inferior to " mafia" crimes....

@Wiseguy

Do you believe the Bonnano FAMILY, has better contacts for narcotics than the Violis? And before you answer, remember the recent indictments were all weed, remember the kid with the pounds and his gradma... I believe they had people who can MOVE stuff in the streets, but WHO would the Bonbano dope guy be?

It's always been my opinion the Bonnanos coveted the Violis extensive Canafian contacts and relationships, to make up for their having lost control of Canada.
( Unless new info comes out that says the Bonnanos reconciled with the Rizzuto people..)

[gohnjotti]

Wow wtf happened here? I thought we agreed to let sleeping dogs lie!

I read the last couple pages and got a hearty laugh out of Gohnjotti asking wiseguy if he read the national post article, that was classic.

My advice to basically everyone is to step off this merry go round, you'll only go in circles arguing with wiseguy. It's his favorite ride in the park but honestly its not worth the price of admission. Your time would be better spent banging your head against a brick wall.

I've tried to tell them multiple times.... the only conclusion I can draw is everyone actually enjoys the argument, on some level....

We cant seem to focus on the Violis, the other guys names like Massamigliano Carfana never even come up..

I've long believed the connective thread to be narcotics, but this is viewed as inferior to " mafia" crimes....

@Wiseguy

Do you believe the Bonnano FAMILY, has better contacts for narcotics than the Violis? And before you answer, remember the recent indictments were all weed, remember the kid with the pounds and his gradma... I believe they had people who can MOVE stuff in the streets, but WHO would the Bonbano dope guy be?

It's always been my opinion the Bonnanos coveted the Violis extensive Canafian contacts and relationships, to make up for their having lost control of Canada.
( Unless new info comes out that says the Bonnanos reconciled with the Rizzuto people..)

My only issue with that assessment @CabriniGreen, and I think Wiseguy will actually agree with me here, is that I don’t think the Bonanno family have a “policy” on drugs, nor do they have a family-wide “source.” Drug-dealing in the Five Families over the past 20 years has never been anything more than an individual/crew-level racket. Bosses do not set policy over drugs, and bosses do not decide where they get their drugs from. At least that is my understanding. The Bonanno admin likely does not know or care where Vinny Basciano Jr. got his marijuana, nor where Ernie Aiello was getting his pills, nor where Frankie Santoro was getting his coke (IIRC it was a joint operation with the Gambinos).

I know, for example, that some families still adhere to a strict drug dealing ban. The Colombos try, at least.