Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[CabriniGreen]

I don't wanna to argue about it,( no need to) but the crux of the issue for me, wasn't that the hierarchy changed, it's which one were they ultimately loyal to, American or Sicilian.

I've basically never compared the Caruana-Cuntreras to an American regime, to me it's a bad comparison. I've always seen them as the other side of the coin, of the Inzerillo-Gambinos.

I've always been intrigued at the politics behind how the Gambinos, and Angelo Bruno, basically opened up NY, Jersey AND Philly to these guys, and they basically did what they wanted.

On the flip side, the Caruanas-Cuntreras, who were involved in basically the SAME operation, were told by a capo-regime, an ACTING capo at that, that they had NO standing. It's quite the contrast and I'm sure it had the Cuntreras-Rizzuto people more than a little baffled. Imagine what the conversation must have been like between say, John Gambino and Nicolo Rizzuto when they discussed business, when a load came in.... John's like, " we're up and rolling!... Niccolo like, " we're still waiting for permission.. This fuck Violi..."

These arrangements were worked out 20 years earlier, by people much more powerful, and they were in business with people much more powerful than him.

[CabriniGreen]

Even today, that latest indictment showed the Gambinos treat the Inzerillos like Kings in Exile, not like, well that's the Inzerillo crew, it's just another crew.

My theory has been, that RIGHT up until the point Sciascia was hit, they thought they had the SAME arrangement with the Bonnanos.

[Angelo Santino]

I don't wanna to argue about it,( no need to) but the crux of the issue for me, wasn't that the hierarchy changed, it's which one were they ultimately loyal to, American or Sicilian.

I've basically never compared the Caruana-Cuntreras to an American regime, to me it's a bad comparison. I've always seen them as the other side of the coin, of the Inzerillo-Gambinos.

I've always been intrigued at the politics behind how the Gambinos, and Angelo Bruno, basically opened up NY, Jersey AND Philly to these guys, and they basically did what they wanted.

On the flip side, the Caruanas-Cuntreras, who were involved in basically the SAME operation, were told by a capo-regime, an ACTING capo at that, that they had NO standing. It's quite the contrast and I'm sure it had the Cuntreras-Rizzuto people more than a little baffled. Imagine what the conversation must have been like between say, John Gambino and Nicolo Rizzuto when they discussed business, when a load came in.... John's like, " we're up and rolling!... Niccolo like, " we're still waiting for permission.. This fuck Violi..."

These arrangements were worked out 20 years earlier, by people much more powerful, and they were in business with people much more powerful than him.

Well the Sicilian model is for the most part, pretty standard. Every Family, American or Sicilian incorporated it. Acting bosses and panels are a slight variation but not without precedent. But what we are discussing are formal criminal affiliations and it would be misleading to think that they all exist in bubbles separate from each other. They like to mingle, its built into mafia culture, they establish contacts and connections. The mob's interaction with other groups is a pragmatic story rather than one soaked in blood which is the exception not the norm. There are Mafia dominated rackets, but they exist because members within the mafia set out to take them, as opposed to it being an order from some "inner circle" in a dark room making decisions for the next 100 years. The Mafia hierarchy will continue to exist, but any narcotics transactions or any other racket will occur outside of the hierarchy with the exception of percentages being sent upward. So while a Paul Castellano could likely say to himself in a mirror that he had nothing directly to do with drugs, he was still 'criminally receiving' which in the eyes of the law, puts him at the helm of a drug conspiracy. Regardless, this drug conspiracy he was connected to was linked to members of the Bergin Hunt and Fish club where it wasn't even official crew business since it was technically outlawed.

[Wiseguy]

I don't wanna to argue about it,( no need to) but the crux of the issue for me, wasn't that the hierarchy changed, it's which one were they ultimately loyal to, American or Sicilian.

I've basically never compared the Caruana-Cuntreras to an American regime, to me it's a bad comparison. I've always seen them as the other side of the coin, of the Inzerillo-Gambinos.

I've always been intrigued at the politics behind how the Gambinos, and Angelo Bruno, basically opened up NY, Jersey AND Philly to these guys, and they basically did what they wanted.

On the flip side, the Caruanas-Cuntreras, who were involved in basically the SAME operation, were told by a capo-regime, an ACTING capo at that, that they had NO standing. It's quite the contrast and I'm sure it had the Cuntreras-Rizzuto people more than a little baffled. Imagine what the conversation must have been like between say, John Gambino and Nicolo Rizzuto when they discussed business, when a load came in.... John's like, " we're up and rolling!... Niccolo like, " we're still waiting for permission.. This fuck Violi..."

These arrangements were worked out 20 years earlier, by people much more powerful, and they were in business with people much more powerful than him.

Well the Sicilian model is for the most part, pretty standard. Every Family, American or Sicilian incorporated it. Acting bosses and panels are a slight variation but not without precedent. But what we are discussing are formal criminal affiliations and it would be misleading to think that they all exist in bubbles separate from each other. They like to mingle, its built into mafia culture, they establish contacts and connections. The mob's interaction with other groups is a pragmatic story rather than one soaked in blood which is the exception not the norm. There are Mafia dominated rackets, but they exist because members within the mafia set out to take them, as opposed to it being an order from some "inner circle" in a dark room making decisions for the next 100 years. The Mafia hierarchy will continue to exist, but any narcotics transactions or any other racket will occur outside of the hierarchy with the exception of percentages being sent upward. So while a Paul Castellano could likely say to himself in a mirror that he had nothing directly to do with drugs, he was still 'criminally receiving' which in the eyes of the law, puts him at the helm of a drug conspiracy. Regardless, this drug conspiracy he was connected to was linked to members of the Bergin Hunt and Fish club where it wasn't even official crew business since it was technically outlawed.

Reminds me of what Raab said one time about the Mafia - "They're diversified. That's why they last."

And it is true about the mob's interaction with other group. For the most part, it has been a pragmatic approach (for mutual profit) rather than one soaked in blood. And that includes between mob families themselves.

One thing we don't see with the Mexicans, for example, is anything like a lasting Commission to judge internal disputes and keep violence to a minimum. It's been nothing but the creation of cartels, the splintering of cartels, changing alliances, and constant scorched-earth fighting over territory.

[maxiestern11]

That’s just one of the features that made LCN so powerful ..... and resilient

[Angelo Santino]

I don't wanna to argue about it,( no need to) but the crux of the issue for me, wasn't that the hierarchy changed, it's which one were they ultimately loyal to, American or Sicilian.

I've basically never compared the Caruana-Cuntreras to an American regime, to me it's a bad comparison. I've always seen them as the other side of the coin, of the Inzerillo-Gambinos.

I've always been intrigued at the politics behind how the Gambinos, and Angelo Bruno, basically opened up NY, Jersey AND Philly to these guys, and they basically did what they wanted.

On the flip side, the Caruanas-Cuntreras, who were involved in basically the SAME operation, were told by a capo-regime, an ACTING capo at that, that they had NO standing. It's quite the contrast and I'm sure it had the Cuntreras-Rizzuto people more than a little baffled. Imagine what the conversation must have been like between say, John Gambino and Nicolo Rizzuto when they discussed business, when a load came in.... John's like, " we're up and rolling!... Niccolo like, " we're still waiting for permission.. This fuck Violi..."

These arrangements were worked out 20 years earlier, by people much more powerful, and they were in business with people much more powerful than him.

Well the Sicilian model is for the most part, pretty standard. Every Family, American or Sicilian incorporated it. Acting bosses and panels are a slight variation but not without precedent. But what we are discussing are formal criminal affiliations and it would be misleading to think that they all exist in bubbles separate from each other. They like to mingle, its built into mafia culture, they establish contacts and connections. The mob's interaction with other groups is a pragmatic story rather than one soaked in blood which is the exception not the norm. There are Mafia dominated rackets, but they exist because members within the mafia set out to take them, as opposed to it being an order from some "inner circle" in a dark room making decisions for the next 100 years. The Mafia hierarchy will continue to exist, but any narcotics transactions or any other racket will occur outside of the hierarchy with the exception of percentages being sent upward. So while a Paul Castellano could likely say to himself in a mirror that he had nothing directly to do with drugs, he was still 'criminally receiving' which in the eyes of the law, puts him at the helm of a drug conspiracy. Regardless, this drug conspiracy he was connected to was linked to members of the Bergin Hunt and Fish club where it wasn't even official crew business since it was technically outlawed.

Reminds me of what Raab said one time about the Mafia - "They're diversified. That's why they last."

And it is true about the mob's interaction with other group. For the most part, it has been a pragmatic approach (for mutual profit) rather than one soaked in blood. And that includes between mob families themselves.

One thing we don't see with the Mexicans, for example, is anything like a lasting Commission to judge internal disputes and keep violence to a minimum. It's been nothing but the creation of cartels, the splintering of cartels, changing alliances, and constant scorched-earth fighting over territory.

I agree with Raab. It bares many traits to that of a criminal freemasonry rather than a gang with a specific agenda. The hierarchy's purpose is to instill a order and resolve things through mediation of its criminal affiliates more so than it set up to actively dominate any particular racket. We don't see formal ranks such as Accountants, couriers, Hit Squads etc, even though individuals have informally acted in these capacities.

As early as the 1890's we have documented evidence of Italians and non-Italians doing business. Giuseppe Morello of the Genoveses was one such individual. Dash summarized the Irish whom he was associated with as "dupes" but it was a different time when the "Mafia" didn't carry the weight in NY than it does today. The arrangement was likely mutual more so than Don Piddu telling the micks how it is.

I read somewhere that the cartels are starting to operate like mafias with their own diversification into extortion and political corruption. On the northern side, according to Boxer Enriquez the Mexican Mafia gangs of CA, AZ and TX are starting to work more in tandem. We'll have to wait and see what happens and if anything becomes of it. One thing these groups lack of a criminal society but they do share a criminal subcultures which allows for the lifestyle to continue even if it lacks a structured society. But the idea of a unified Mexican entity seems unlikely at this point. Italy could fit in the state of FL, Mexico is 5 times that size and the Chicanos in America are very different depending on the area. In LA most are 3rd gen English speakers who are more urban, as opposed to Texas where Spanish is spoken more and cowboy hats and shitkickers are still in style.

[stubbs]

I don't wanna to argue about it,( no need to) but the crux of the issue for me, wasn't that the hierarchy changed, it's which one were they ultimately loyal to, American or Sicilian.

I've basically never compared the Caruana-Cuntreras to an American regime, to me it's a bad comparison. I've always seen them as the other side of the coin, of the Inzerillo-Gambinos.

I've always been intrigued at the politics behind how the Gambinos, and Angelo Bruno, basically opened up NY, Jersey AND Philly to these guys, and they basically did what they wanted.

On the flip side, the Caruanas-Cuntreras, who were involved in basically the SAME operation, were told by a capo-regime, an ACTING capo at that, that they had NO standing. It's quite the contrast and I'm sure it had the Cuntreras-Rizzuto people more than a little baffled. Imagine what the conversation must have been like between say, John Gambino and Nicolo Rizzuto when they discussed business, when a load came in.... John's like, " we're up and rolling!... Niccolo like, " we're still waiting for permission.. This fuck Violi..."

These arrangements were worked out 20 years earlier, by people much more powerful, and they were in business with people much more powerful than him.

Well the Sicilian model is for the most part, pretty standard. Every Family, American or Sicilian incorporated it. Acting bosses and panels are a slight variation but not without precedent. But what we are discussing are formal criminal affiliations and it would be misleading to think that they all exist in bubbles separate from each other. They like to mingle, its built into mafia culture, they establish contacts and connections. The mob's interaction with other groups is a pragmatic story rather than one soaked in blood which is the exception not the norm. There are Mafia dominated rackets, but they exist because members within the mafia set out to take them, as opposed to it being an order from some "inner circle" in a dark room making decisions for the next 100 years. The Mafia hierarchy will continue to exist, but any narcotics transactions or any other racket will occur outside of the hierarchy with the exception of percentages being sent upward. So while a Paul Castellano could likely say to himself in a mirror that he had nothing directly to do with drugs, he was still 'criminally receiving' which in the eyes of the law, puts him at the helm of a drug conspiracy. Regardless, this drug conspiracy he was connected to was linked to members of the Bergin Hunt and Fish club where it wasn't even official crew business since it was technically outlawed.

Reminds me of what Raab said one time about the Mafia - "They're diversified. That's why they last."

And it is true about the mob's interaction with other group. For the most part, it has been a pragmatic approach (for mutual profit) rather than one soaked in blood. And that includes between mob families themselves.

One thing we don't see with the Mexicans, for example, is anything like a lasting Commission to judge internal disputes and keep violence to a minimum. It's been nothing but the creation of cartels, the splintering of cartels, changing alliances, and constant scorched-earth fighting over territory.

I agree with Raab. It bares many traits to that of a criminal freemasonry rather than a gang with a specific agenda. The hierarchy's purpose is to instill a order and resolve things through mediation of its criminal affiliates more so than it set up to actively dominate any particular racket. We don't see formal ranks such as Accountants, couriers, Hit Squads etc, even though individuals have informally acted in these capacities.

As early as the 1890's we have documented evidence of Italians and non-Italians doing business. Giuseppe Morello of the Genoveses was one such individual. Dash summarized the Irish whom he was associated with as "dupes" but it was a different time when the "Mafia" didn't carry the weight in NY than it does today. The arrangement was likely mutual more so than Don Piddu telling the micks how it is.

I read somewhere that the cartels are starting to operate like mafias with their own diversification into extortion and political corruption. On the northern side, according to Boxer Enriquez the Mexican Mafia gangs of CA, AZ and TX are starting to work more in tandem. We'll have to wait and see what happens and if anything becomes of it. One thing these groups lack of a criminal society but they do share a criminal subcultures which allows for the lifestyle to continue even if it lacks a structured society. But the idea of a unified Mexican entity seems unlikely at this point. Italy could fit in the state of FL, Mexico is 5 times that size and the Chicanos in America are very different depending on the area. In LA most are 3rd gen English speakers who are more urban, as opposed to Texas where Spanish is spoken more and cowboy hats and shitkickers are still in style.

Good stuff Chris! I can’t speak to the Mexican gangs in the US, but the cartels on the Mexican side are already extremely diverse. They also earn money from kidnapping, extortion of local businesses, oil theft, fuel theft, shaking down migrants, etc. etc.

One thing the cartels lack is all of the “making” ceremonies and formal membership that the mob has. Somehow the Italians were able to build their thing where the institution of the family is the most important thing, membership in a family is for life, and a clear division between members and non-members.

The cartels have always been far less formally structured and alliances can change rapidly. The closest thing to the Italian mafia would’ve been probably the quasi-religious La Familia Michoacana and Knights Templar Cartels but they seem to have been wiped out, or at least severely weakened.

[Wiseguy]

Some cartels have diversified more than others. However, if you look at it, it's not necessarily been in the same pattern of a Mafia family expanding into other things as it grows in size and power. It seems the Mexican organizations that have moved the most into non-drug trafficking crimes such as extortion, human smuggling, fuel theft, etc. have been the those in decline (Zetas) or smaller groups with less of a stake in the drug trade (La Familia Michoacan, Knights Templar, etc.) In other words, while there has been some diversification, it's not been on a level that you see in some other groups around the world. Take away the drug trade and at least 90% of the cartels would crumble.

[Angelo Santino]

Organized crime Societies and the concept of Family, are bastardizations of the larger trends within the Italian population. Every culture loves their family, but the nuclear family in Italian culture wasn't a long traditional trait just like the concept of "the Italian dinner" was really brought about by Italians aping the British in the 1700 and 1800's. The concept of Secret and open Societies were also a fad in the 19th century. If you were a freemason or an aristocrat or political or religiously inclined, there were Societies for that. Thank Napoleon. In America, the saloon/social club was the Italian facebook of the late 1800's early 1900's where you kept up with current events and heard where work was available. There were more legitimate saloons in NY than there were criminal ones before a certain point. And even the mafia ones were different shades of gray- some like Virzi's saloon in East Village was exclusively criminal, others like the Three Dueces further south wasn't, it was frequented by criminals but that's the result of where it was located.

All of these traits were not invented by the Mafia, they copied them and applied them in a nefarious and cynical way. The larger population, when they hear the buzzwords honor, loyalty and family equated as mafia principles, they can find that sympathetic because who doesn't like honor, loyalty or family or wish there were more of them in everyday society? But as we researchers know, when they use those phrases they are being used cynically, family is criminal affiliation, honor is being a criminal in good standing with the org and loyalty is not revealing it to law enforcement. It stands counter to legitimate society and arguably always has. This idea that it was once a good thing just doesn't exist on written record, they were scumbags in the 1870's, they'e scumbags now.

Mexico doesn't have a history of secret societies so that explains why an achiral criminal one never developed. There's more to making a mafia than having a structure, many groups over the past 150 years have had structures and ranks only to disappear after some case, event or generational shift. Without deviating too much from Buffalo, isn't there an element of religion to some of these cartels? Santa Morte? The Patron Saint covered on Breaking Bad? Obviously not my strong area .

[scagghiuni]

Some cartels have diversified more than others. However, if you look at it, it's not necessarily been in the same pattern of a Mafia family expanding into other things as it grows in size and power. It seems the Mexican organizations that have moved the most into non-drug trafficking crimes such as extortion, human smuggling, fuel theft, etc. have been the those in decline (Zetas) or smaller groups with less of a stake in the drug trade (La Familia Michoacan, Knights Templar, etc.) In other words, while there has been some diversification, it's not been on a level that you see in some other groups around the world. Take away the drug trade and at least 90% of the cartels would crumble.

yeah, cartels (but most of criminal groups) depend too much on drugs, the mafia in italy started in the early 1800s, it would survive even if drugs would disappear from the world, same for yakuza and very old criminal groups

[CabriniGreen]

@ Chris Christie

The Knights Templar I believe are defunct..... it's the only one I know of that was quasi- religious...

Breaking Bad was entertaining, but pretty Hollywood and somewhat cartoonish in its Cartel depictions... I think that's it's why people loved Gus Fring so much.....

In Sicily, the mafias biggest fortunes were first Agricultural based, like the Grecos with the olive and citrus groves, and also the Sulfer mines I think?

But these were territorial based and benefited certain families, no? Same with any periodic construction booms, like the Sack of Palermo that empowered the LaBarberas in...... Palermo Centro, was it?
I know Genovese, then Luciano organized the Black Market, but I always thought they did it from Naples...


Then the black market for Tobacco, which morphed into a heroin consortium.... this was the period when the mafia made its biggest fortunes, right?

[JeremyTheJew]

Some cartels have diversified more than others. However, if you look at it, it's not necessarily been in the same pattern of a Mafia family expanding into other things as it grows in size and power. It seems the Mexican organizations that have moved the most into non-drug trafficking crimes such as extortion, human smuggling, fuel theft, etc. have been the those in decline (Zetas) or smaller groups with less of a stake in the drug trade (La Familia Michoacan, Knights Templar, etc.) In other words, while there has been some diversification, it's not been on a level that you see in some other groups around the world. Take away the drug trade and at least 90% of the cartels would crumble.

yeah, cartels (but most of criminal groups) depend too much on drugs, the mafia in italy started in the early 1800s, it would survive even if drugs would disappear from the world, same for yakuza and very old criminal groups

The Yakuza has actually dropped from 100k members k. The yamaguchi-gumi down to I think 25k.

But I also think with the Yakuza it became more criminals as compared to before when there were ordinary citizen but with a certain specialty (like a doctor) could join

Remember in Japan the clans would have headquarters with there logos and even business cards

[Cactus]

Is there any mafia in toronto? I’m a student (highschool) and I’m so curious I have so many questions but I guess I have to start somewhere, is there any mafia in toronto? And if you could elaborate

[johnny_scootch]

Is there any mafia in toronto? I’m a student (highschool) and I’m so curious I have so many questions but I guess I have to start somewhere, is there any mafia in toronto? And if you could elaborate

This question could seriously throw this thread off line but to make it short yes there is mafia in Toronto. The Ndrangheta operates in Toronto. You can google The Siderno Group & Camera di Controllo for more info or use the forum search function to find related threads. Also the book Iced: The story of organized crime in Canada by Stephen Schneider is very good.

[Cactus]

thank you.