Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[johnny_scootch]

Great stuff B and everyone else!

My question is: Does Buffalo traditionally control all of Ontario? Like not just the city of Hamilton, but the entire province including Toronto?

Historically yes, Ontario is the territory of the Buffalo Family when speaking in regards to American Cosa Nostra. They've certainly had members/crews operating in Hamilton obviously but also Toronto.

[CabriniGreen]

- Would that mean that Joe Violi would also report to an NYC crew if he were made into the Bonannos? Not necessarily, as Morena was from the Middle Village area originally which is why he was connected to that crew. But then again, Morena's induction in Ontario and connection to the Violis shows that the Bonannos were planting a new flag in Ontario separate from their previous Canadian crew. The Bonannos may have had plans for more than simply Morena in that area.


I always saw it this way, that the Bonnanos were looking to rebuild the Canadian crew from scratch.

The statement, " You only answer to the Bonnano family".... speaks volumes to me....


I think it's possible they saw the Montreal outpost as irretrievably compromised....

Maybe this is why Buffalo was " needed? An long sanctioned LCN territory, maybe in disrepair, but still an officially recognized mafia territory that the Bonnanos felt they could rebuild around, with the center of it all being the Violi brothers?


Maybe the center of the new Bonnano- Canadian operation was to be ran from Hamilton? Morena as the point man? With maybe a Joe Violi as capo, if he accepted? Maybe they were recreating the Montreal structure, but based in Hamilton, with Zummo as the NY street capo, ala Sciascia, and Violi taking the role of, well, his dad, Violi. Maybe Morena was supposed to be a LoPresti type? The messenger?

The latest article says that the Rizzutos are in charge, but lack the charismatic leadership of Vito, as well as a clear successor, so in the future, there could be an opening for a Bonnano resurgence there in Montreal....

Quick question, did the Scoppas have a connection to NY direct?


I cant help but see the Violis as drug guys, and I cant help but think that was their value to the Bonnano family in particular, and their contribution to the Canadian malavita as a whole.

What was Morenas specialty? He seems like muscle to me.

- In the same way a few guys and a couple indictments dont constitute a crime family, I cant see this one guy, a ceremony, and there's suddenly an expansive crew in operation. It is weird Violi would have had to intoduce the Bonnano guy to the Bonnano guys, who was the point of reference in NY for the Bonnanos in contacting Todaro then? This guy should have been in Canada too, right? I dunno...

Here's a weird question.....

Is there enough raw material for a Buffalo crime family to exist and thrive?

Mafia groups tend to flourish in Cosmopolitan cities with freedom of law, and economic vibrancy. Otherwise its Some vulnerable resource to be taken advantage of, usually some form of agricultural.

Narcotics groups thrive in desolate areas free of investment, with high unemployment and lack of education lending to an abundance of cheap labor and disposable interlocutors of violence.....

Which does Buffalo fall under? Because I believe the needs of the organization will result in the type of structure the organization takes on.....

[Angelo Santino]

It's difficult to interpret some of the analysis from Canadian journalists, as their writing tends to reflect the information they receive from LE, which in Canada takes a much different approach to mafia investigation. The journalists also appear to do a lot of guesswork based on general associations. Looking at Ontario again for comparison, the picture we had of the Violis and Luppinos was presented much differently by LE and journalists over the years compared to what we learned through Morena's cooperation, which made Violi and the Luppinos' affiliation with Buffalo perfectly clear and in accordance with the history of the region.

Just a random example of what I mean from a 2019 Renaud article -- he says the "Cotroni clan" joined the "Rizzuto clan" after they came to power in the 1980s. They were all made members of the same organization already and when there is a conflict in a mafia group the different factions almost always fall back together, at least until they come into conflict again, but even in those times of conflict they are still members of the same organization. It's not that those factions are unimportant and shouldn't be distinguished from each other, it's that they are written about as if they are members of different organizations. And that is Renaud talking about well-known Montreal history, so the idea of someone trying to piece together currently unfolding events involving modern figures whose roles aren't entirely clear makes me hesitant to trust articles.

What makes the Violi / Morena situation different is that the articles about it were based on recordings of mafia members discussing mafia politics as played in court. I won't be fully comfortable with any information on Canada (or anywhere for that matter) unless information from member informants or tapes of members are made. The Violi situation is extremely valuable because it contained both a member informant operating in Canada and tapes of Canadian-based members of US Cosa Nostra families talking to each other about Cosa Nostra -- a rarity in Canada.

This. Italian OC goes much father back than 1950 running adjacent to US OC with groups forming quite early (1890's-1900's) and going on to play an international role in the 1950's. And yet all I ever hear about are things beginning at that point and that's simply just not true. Canada, like Australia, have very interesting histories with characters just as colorful as their American counterparts. Unfortunately I lack the resources beyond just reading what others have written on the subject which does't make someone an expert.

(There's an OC "writer" (he writes) from New Zealand but he's more focused on reading American OC books and summarizing their contents into his little articles covering such amazing stories like who really tried to whack off Anastasia etc. If I lived in his part of the world, I'd have dived head fucking first in Australian OC, it has a history just as rich and colorful as the US. Unrelated to organized crime per se, but I am acquainted with one of Albert Anastasia's relatives who lives in Florida but his entire family was born in Australia including him.)

And unlike the US, Canada has had to contend with more than one Italian Crime Society making the situation different than the US. But just how different? Without informants being utilized it's difficult to know. It could be very similar or they're could be striking differences with this additional component.

[VanCity]

Anyone even have any ideas where the lines are drawn right now? It seems like Montreal is coming under one banner. Ontario seems to have many more sides.

[CabriniGreen]

Another question which I think is important: why would a Buffalo member have to introduce (alleged) members of the Bonannos to each other? Isn't that unusual and shouldn't it be a Bonanno who introduces members of their family to each other? Also, wouldn't a phonecall from someone from New York be sufficient to introduce Moreno to people in Montreal? And last but not least, could it be indicative that the Montreal group is no longer part of the Bonannos if a Buffalo member has to make the introductions?

I'm sure you know about the 3rd party introduction protocol and it can't be accomplished over the phone under normal circumstances. It's probably one of the reasons Violi attended the Morena ceremony, so there would be someone up there to help make the proper introductions. If the ceremony took place in Brooklyn they wouldn't need a guy from another family to do it but we are talking about Hamilton not Bensonhurst. Zummo and Zancocchio (I believe he was the 'John' who also attended the ceremony) probably didn't stay up there long enough to make many introductions on Morena's behalf. They certainly didn't all jump in the car and make the 6 hour drive to Montreal to introduce him around either.

It's a little odd right? There wasn't a single guy in Brooklyn, or Queens, or NY in general, familiar enough with these guys to make an intro? Also, if there is a fully functioning Bonnano crew, why aren't THEY at the ceremony? And wouldnt Morena be in THAT crew?

This goes to WHY a Buffalo was even needed I think, the Violis were familiar with the criminal landscape up there, plus had contacts that could be maximized by an association with NY.

[CabriniGreen]

Lupara kinda makes a good point...

Call NY, get a couple guys to make intros, call Montreal, tell the guys to be at the ceremony, there's intros to be made and business to be done. again, WHY is a Buffalo needed for ANY of this? It's a riddle for sure...

[Angelo Santino]

Another question which I think is important: why would a Buffalo member have to introduce (alleged) members of the Bonannos to each other? Isn't that unusual and shouldn't it be a Bonanno who introduces members of their family to each other? Also, wouldn't a phonecall from someone from New York be sufficient to introduce Moreno to people in Montreal? And last but not least, could it be indicative that the Montreal group is no longer part of the Bonannos if a Buffalo member has to make the introductions?

I'm sure you know about the 3rd party introduction protocol and it can't be accomplished over the phone under normal circumstances. It's probably one of the reasons Violi attended the Morena ceremony, so there would be someone up there to help make the proper introductions. If the ceremony took place in Brooklyn they wouldn't need a guy from another family to do it but we are talking about Hamilton not Bensonhurst. Zummo and Zancocchio (I believe he was the 'John' who also attended the ceremony) probably didn't stay up there long enough to make many introductions on Morena's behalf. They certainly didn't all jump in the car and make the 6 hour drive to Montreal to introduce him around either.

It's a little odd right? There wasn't a single guy in Brooklyn, or Queens, or NY in general, familiar enough with these guys to make an intro? Also, if there is a fully functioning Bonnano crew, why aren't THEY at the ceremony? And wouldnt Morena be in THAT crew?

This goes to WHY a Buffalo was even needed I think, the Violis were familiar with the criminal landscape up there, plus had contacts that could be maximized by an association with NY.

Technically, there's no rule that a member has to be introduced by another member of the same family and second, a new member isn't going to be introduced to everyone inside a 100-300 man group. It's not possible. It falls into varying degrees of associations with them knowing some quite well, others by sight and others by reputation. (Valachi likely didn't personally know everyone on those charts with an * next to their name which indicated they were identified by him.) If in some alternate reality I'm made and my made incarcerated father gets out a month later who sees me in a club and there's a Gen member who knows us both who's there, he would make the formal 3rd party introduction. Given that we're talking three cities in two different countries, my scenario seems like a likely issue they could encounter.

The links between NY/Buffalo/Montreal seem to imply a close relationship between the Bonannos and Buffalo. While there' so much more to be learned, I'm reminded of Tampa and the DeCav members claiming their groups were allegedly "now under" the Gambinos. It doesn't read like the Gambinos absorbed other families in a way that would demote their boss like an MC patchover but there's also been no indication that when Tampa and DeCav were allegedly under them, that their autonomy was imposed on in terms of requiring to send money up to them. Perhaps NY had a say in who they made, which there's been evidence of them having a say about in the past.

300 pages. We made Mafia forum history!

[johnny_scootch]

It's a little odd right? There wasn't a single guy in Brooklyn, or Queens, or NY in general, familiar enough with these guys to make an intro? Also, if there is a fully functioning Bonnano crew, why aren't THEY at the ceremony? And wouldnt Morena be in THAT crew?

This goes to WHY a Buffalo was even needed I think, the Violis were familiar with the criminal landscape up there, plus had contacts that could be maximized by an association with NY.

I don't think it's odd at all. First off there is no Bonanno crew in Ontario, Morena would in a sense be alone and operating there with the approval of the Buffalo family. It doesn't make sense to fly guys from Brooklyn to Canada for the purpose of introducing Morena around if Violi could do it. You risk exposure like that. Violi and other Buffalo members living in Hamilton could over time help make all the proper introductions Morena needed to facilitate his operations in Canada without ever risking NY Bonanno members getting noticed crossing the border or being seen around Montreal.

There are plenty of reasons why Bonanno members from Montreal wouldn't have attended the ceremony first being Hamilton is a 6 hour drive from Montreal not exactly around the corner. Second is Montreal guys have been at war for years now and are possibly under police surveillance. Making ceremonies today aren't like the old days where you would have 20 guys attending, they're small affairs with 4 or 5 guys. Last but not least the relationship between Montreal and Ny is still a big question mark so there could be other reasons no one knows about.

As for what crew Morena would be in that's entirely up to the family administration. They can put him wherever they want, if they had a crew in Florida and felt like putting him with that crew no one could say a word.

[Lupara]

300 pages. We made Mafia forum history!

I think 300 pages is a little overrated. That would mean about 3000 posts. Do you really believe a forum thread could be this large when forum activity is in a steady decline for years now and interest in the mob at an all time low? I haven't seen the feds confirm this so naturally I'm sceptic.

10 years ago people were making similar claims about the 'Nick Rizzuto has been shot' thread. Now that forum doesn't even exist anymore.

Just keep believing this thread is still going strong under the radar after so many months. It's not going to save the forum and 10 years from now I may very well be proven right.

[stubbs]

It's a little odd right? There wasn't a single guy in Brooklyn, or Queens, or NY in general, familiar enough with these guys to make an intro? Also, if there is a fully functioning Bonnano crew, why aren't THEY at the ceremony? And wouldnt Morena be in THAT crew?

This goes to WHY a Buffalo was even needed I think, the Violis were familiar with the criminal landscape up there, plus had contacts that could be maximized by an association with NY.

I don't think it's odd at all. First off there is no Bonanno crew in Ontario, Morena would in a sense be alone and operating there with the approval of the Buffalo family. It doesn't make sense to fly guys from Brooklyn to Canada for the purpose of introducing Morena around if Violi could do it. You risk exposure like that. Violi and other Buffalo members living in Hamilton could over time help make all the proper introductions Morena needed to facilitate his operations in Canada without ever risking NY Bonanno members getting noticed crossing the border or being seen around Montreal.

There are plenty of reasons why Bonanno members from Montreal wouldn't have attended the ceremony first being Hamilton is a 6 hour drive from Montreal not exactly around the corner. Second is Montreal guys have been at war for years now and are possibly under police surveillance. Making ceremonies today aren't like the old days where you would have 20 guys attending, they're small affairs with 4 or 5 guys. Last but not least the relationship between Montreal and Ny is still a big question mark so there could be other reasons no one knows about.

As for what crew Morena would be in that's entirely up to the family administration. They can put him wherever they want, if they had a crew in Florida and felt like putting him with that crew no one could say a word.

The Violis are also from Montreal and probably still have a lot of contacts there, in spite of having to relocate to Hamilton a few decades back after the original war. The guy is mob royalty in Canada and likely an underboss for a reason.

[CabriniGreen]

300 pages. We made Mafia forum history!

I think 300 pages is a little overrated. That would mean about 3000 posts. Do you really believe a forum thread could be this large when forum activity is in a steady decline for years now and interest in the mob at an all time low? I haven't seen the feds confirm this so naturally I'm sceptic.

10 years ago people were making similar claims about the 'Nick Rizzuto has been shot' thread. Now that forum doesn't even exist anymore.

Just keep believing this thread is still going strong under the radar after so many months. It's not going to save the forum and 10 years from now I may very well be proven right.

Good one... lol

[B.]

Can't avoid laughing at that one, haha.

Someone should print this thread off, bind it into a book, and send it to Domenico Violi in prison. Unfortunately we lost the best man for the job years back (Mafioso).

[CabriniGreen]

It's a little odd right? There wasn't a single guy in Brooklyn, or Queens, or NY in general, familiar enough with these guys to make an intro? Also, if there is a fully functioning Bonnano crew, why aren't THEY at the ceremony? And wouldnt Morena be in THAT crew?

This goes to WHY a Buffalo was even needed I think, the Violis were familiar with the criminal landscape up there, plus had contacts that could be maximized by an association with NY.

I don't think it's odd at all. First off there is no Bonanno crew in Ontario, Morena would in a sense be alone and operating there with the approval of the Buffalo family. It doesn't make sense to fly guys from Brooklyn to Canada for the purpose of introducing Morena around if Violi could do it. You risk exposure like that. Violi and other Buffalo members living in Hamilton could over time help make all the proper introductions Morena needed to facilitate his operations in Canada without ever risking NY Bonanno members getting noticed crossing the border or being seen around Montreal.

There are plenty of reasons why Bonanno members from Montreal wouldn't have attended the ceremony first being Hamilton is a 6 hour drive from Montreal not exactly around the corner. Second is Montreal guys have been at war for years now and are possibly under police surveillance. Making ceremonies today aren't like the old days where you would have 20 guys attending, they're small affairs with 4 or 5 guys. Last but not least the relationship between Montreal and Ny is still a big question mark so there could be other reasons no one knows about.

As for what crew Morena would be in that's entirely up to the family administration. They can put him wherever they want, if they had a crew in Florida and felt like putting him with that crew no one could say a word.

The Violis are also from Montreal and probably still have a lot of contacts there, in spite of having to relocate to Hamilton a few decades back after the original war. The guy is mob royalty in Canada and likely an underboss for a reason.

Oh, I completely agree... Its why I dont get why the focus doesnt stay on the Violis. Beyond even their mob pedigree, They have been heavyweights since their mid twenties I want to say....

If they had a real hand in the violence in Montreal I cant believe they haven't been killed yet....

What exactly WAS their role in the war? Especially since they weren't made, but I'm assuming they met Montagna? Maybe that's what the Luppino- Violis gave Montagna, access to whatever resources and contacts they could bring to bear, I guess?

Those Augustino- Albanese people seemed familiar with Montagna, they called him " The American"...

I'm still kinda curious of Joe Violis biker connections.. . how extensive i wonder.....

What was Cece Luppino anyway, a message?

Sorry for the questionnaire,....

[BobbyBacala]

It's a little odd right? There wasn't a single guy in Brooklyn, or Queens, or NY in general, familiar enough with these guys to make an intro? Also, if there is a fully functioning Bonnano crew, why aren't THEY at the ceremony? And wouldnt Morena be in THAT crew?

This goes to WHY a Buffalo was even needed I think, the Violis were familiar with the criminal landscape up there, plus had contacts that could be maximized by an association with NY.

I don't think it's odd at all. First off there is no Bonanno crew in Ontario, Morena would in a sense be alone and operating there with the approval of the Buffalo family. It doesn't make sense to fly guys from Brooklyn to Canada for the purpose of introducing Morena around if Violi could do it. You risk exposure like that. Violi and other Buffalo members living in Hamilton could over time help make all the proper introductions Morena needed to facilitate his operations in Canada without ever risking NY Bonanno members getting noticed crossing the border or being seen around Montreal.

There are plenty of reasons why Bonanno members from Montreal wouldn't have attended the ceremony first being Hamilton is a 6 hour drive from Montreal not exactly around the corner. Second is Montreal guys have been at war for years now and are possibly under police surveillance. Making ceremonies today aren't like the old days where you would have 20 guys attending, they're small affairs with 4 or 5 guys. Last but not least the relationship between Montreal and Ny is still a big question mark so there could be other reasons no one knows about.

As for what crew Morena would be in that's entirely up to the family administration. They can put him wherever they want, if they had a crew in Florida and felt like putting him with that crew no one could say a word.

The Violis are also from Montreal and probably still have a lot of contacts there, in spite of having to relocate to Hamilton a few decades back after the original war. The guy is mob royalty in Canada and likely an underboss for a reason.

Oh, I completely agree... Its why I dont get why the focus doesnt stay on the Violis. Beyond even their mob pedigree, They have been heavyweights since their mid twenties I want to say....

If they had a real hand in the violence in Montreal I cant believe they haven't been killed yet....

What exactly WAS their role in the war? Especially since they weren't made, but I'm assuming they met Montagna? Maybe that's what the Luppino- Violis gave Montagna, access to whatever resources and contacts they could bring to bear, I guess?

Those Augustino- Albanese people seemed familiar with Montagna, they called him " The American"...

I'm still kinda curious of Joe Violis biker connections.. . how extensive i wonder.....

What was Cece Luppino anyway, a message?

Sorry for the questionnaire,....

I think the violis were made into the ndrangheta at a early age

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[johnny_scootch]

I think 300 pages is a little overrated. That would mean about 3000 posts. Do you really believe a forum thread could be this large when forum activity is in a steady decline for years now and interest in the mob at an all time low? I haven't seen the feds confirm this so naturally I'm sceptic.

10 years ago people were making similar claims about the 'Nick Rizzuto has been shot' thread. Now that forum doesn't even exist anymore.

Just keep believing this thread is still going strong under the radar after so many months. It's not going to save the forum and 10 years from now I may very well be proven right.

Classic!

I think the violis were made into the ndrangheta at a early age
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Very unlikely.