johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:07 pm
I think what we disagree about is pretty clear and next best thing to do is find something we can agree on. Wg & Pg in your opinion what do you think the current Buffalo mob looks like today membership wise and overall strength (which obviously is really hard to judge) I'm just trying to get a picture in my head of what you guys think the family is like. Do you even believe Todaro Jr is the boss? That Dom Violi was the underboss? Or do you just completely dismiss all the info from the Violi recordings?
I'll repeat what I said earlier. How the situation is very simliar to Rochester.
In 2000 you had the newly promoted Boss of the Rochester family cought on tape inducting a new member (informant Anthony Delmonti). In total there were at least 20 Rochester members still alive at this time. Marotta also had ties to Bonanno members and Cleveland members. Marotta was busted for dealing drugs (in connection with the Bonannos) as well other crmies. The last member to be indicted in Rochester before him was, I believe, in 1988. So 12 years previous.
In 2017 you had the UnderBoss of the Buffalo family, with ties to Bonanno members, cought on tape and busted for dealing drugs. Several Buffalo members were still alive at this time. The last member to be indicted before him was in 2002. So 15 years previous.
In both cases people on the internet tried to use the bust and tapes as evidence of the respective families still being alive and viable and or resurging despite LE claims to the contrary. But now with 20 years of hindsight we see that it wasn't some big Rochester resurgence but just the usual residual activity from the last remnants of the organization. I suspect we will see the same thing with Buffalo. I mean we haven't had a Buffalo made member indicted on the US side since 2002.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Im at the stage where I pray Violi will flip, indict Todaro, who then flips, and they both admit they made the whole fucking up so this thread can just fucking die.
The Fed case is ongoing, So , Like I said in the thread I posted/Started where I posted articles regarding Gerace Jr. , Todaro , Vikki ,And Bongiovanni the corrupt D.E.A. agent and one time cop not realizing earlier today this was already being discussed here , We will soon eventuality see if others are indicted and if there is actually something going on, Or a Viable family on the U.S. Side related to the original Maggadino Lcn group . I don't what I believe ? The Feds and others have said numerous times on many occasions the old LCN family was dead with remnants operating here and there but no real structured group anymore .With the Arrest of Gerace and Bongiovanni I guess only time will tell . Like I said ,its ongoing and now the Feds are taking a serious look finally . Most of us know real OC can not operate or exist and run smoothly and quietly without public corruption , Ex:: Cops and other LE on the take, Public officials on the take . Corrupt courts , Corrupt LE etc etc..
Lupara wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:48 pmSo you're calling me a miserable, arrogant prick now? I think you are demonstrating a failure to show appreciation here.
Sonny, I've been instructed to tell you that if you move this Mormon prick out of his Utah casino, our friend in Buffalo will go along. You can shoot this asshole through the eye if necessary.
We've now reached the point that it is what it is.
I don't remember you being among those on the RD forum years ago who were so positive Detroit had 40 or 50 members and was still going strong. Either way, the point is not one of them ever admitted they were wrong. This time around with Buffalo won't be any different. If someone is arrogant enough to think they can read the landscape better than the FBI and other law enforcement, they're likely too arrogant to admit they were wrong 10 years down the road.
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:07 pm
I think what we disagree about is pretty clear and next best thing to do is find something we can agree on. Wg & Pg in your opinion what do you think the current Buffalo mob looks like today membership wise and overall strength (which obviously is really hard to judge) I'm just trying to get a picture in my head of what you guys think the family is like. Do you even believe Todaro Jr is the boss? That Dom Violi was the underboss? Or do you just completely dismiss all the info from the Violi recordings?
I'll echo what Pogo said above, as well as point out that he's pointed out this precedent with Rochester several times before. Yet, everyone who keeps asking why anyone would be made into a defunct crime family seems to just ignore it.
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:36 am
Rochester not very comparable to Buffalo imo.
Buffalo was a major crime family, Rochester was a small offshoot of Buffalo.
The same principle applies, especially since we're 20 years further down the road. Buffalo and Detroit lasted longer into the 1990s than many of the other families did but it's nearly 2020. If the families in New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia and Chicago are small and weak, that tells you all you need to know about Buffalo.
This thing has gone on probably a lot longer then it should have but it’s quite entertaining. We could do a study on logic vs imagination with everything that’s been discussed. Is Buffalo viable? Evidence from LE suggests not but Violi a career criminal says it does. Interesting.
NothingNew44 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:01 pm
We could do a study on logic vs imagination with everything that’s been discussed. Is Buffalo viable? Evidence from LE suggests not but Violi a career criminal says it does. Interesting.
I just have a hard time not believing what Violi said on the wiretaps to Morena i.e.
Todaro Jr is the boss
Dom Violi the underboss
Natale Luppino is a captain
The family has 30 or so members
Joe Violi and Cece Luppino offered membership
Not a matter of not believing what he said as it is not reading too much into it and hyping it into more than what it is.
Case in point the whole Violi as UnderBoss thing. He was UnderBoss on the street for 1 month (promoted in October and in prison by November). Before that they don't appear to have had an active UnderBoss for at least the previous 10 years. Or Todaro as Boss. OK he has the title but what does he really run when the FBI (as well as state and local LE) has openly been saying for years that there is no leader, no viable structure and no OC activities in Buffalo?
As for the "30 guys" comment you guys keep hanging your hat on that when all the evidence points to it being an off handed comment not to be taken at face value.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
NothingNew44 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:01 pm
We could do a study on logic vs imagination with everything that’s been discussed. Is Buffalo viable? Evidence from LE suggests not but Violi a career criminal says it does. Interesting.
I just have a hard time not believing what Violi said on the wiretaps to Morena i.e.
Todaro Jr is the boss
Dom Violi the underboss
Natale Luppino is a captain
The family has 30 or so members
Joe Violi and Cece Luppino offered membership
It wouldn't be so far fetched that Buffalo is viable today , Its a major point of entry to each country and there is a TON of money to be made by whoever controls the areas on both sides , They , Whoever "THEY" is can control the markets for major contraband being brought in . Anyone would have an almost final say on who gets what , Who gets to do business and at what price . IMO I don't know what to believe ? I'm in the middle slightly in favor of NO , There isn't a Viable structured organization, But I don't know ? Like I said earlier , I guess we just have to wait and see
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:36 am
Rochester not very comparable to Buffalo imo.
Buffalo was a major crime family, Rochester was a small offshoot of Buffalo.
The same principle applies, especially since we're 20 years further down the road. Buffalo and Detroit lasted longer into the 1990s than many of the other families did but it's nearly 2020. If the families in New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia and Chicago are small and weak, that tells you all you need to know about Buffalo.
yes, but the particularity of buffalo is being next to canadian border and having a crew in canada, that's very different to have a crew in boston and the other in providence/rhode island, just to speak
After reading through this entire thread, I tend to err on the side of caution. I do think it’s possible we’re all too quick to assume Buffalo is back up and running strong. But anything is possible.
Also, I do appreciate the level of skepticism brought to the forum from posters like Wiseguy. Let’s be real: On most other places where the mafia is discussed (like r/mafia for example) it’s almost impossible to have a discussion because people tend to believe everything and believe in huge, wide ranging conspiracies that are simply not even close to reality. And with the mafia, how does one prove a negative? (i.e. How does one prove a secret society no longer exists?)
And example is, I live in Houston and the amount of people who think the new Houston Rockets owner, Tilman Fertitta, bought the team using “mob money” is staggering. I try to explain to people that he’s a billionaire businessman and no billionaire could be a mobster because they’re too high profile... every agent from the FBI, DEA, Houston PD, and every DA would be all over Fertitta trying to be the next Guiliani and make a career case against him. Plus, there’s no way the NBA would’ve let him in the league as an owner, especially after the Tim Donaghy scandal. But people don’t want to hear that, they want to believe that the smalltime Maceo group that died out before Feritta was even born is somehow alive and thriving in tiny little Galveston, Texas.
So, as frustrating it is that we’re almost 300 pages deep into the thread with almost no more clarity than when we started, I do appreciate how high quality these discussions are and that there are different, well-thought out opinions from very knowledgable posters.
Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:09 pm
It wouldn't be so far fetched that Buffalo is viable today , Its a major point of entry to each country and there is a TON of money to be made by whoever controls the areas on both sides , They , Whoever "THEY" is can control the markets for major contraband being brought in . Anyone would have an almost final say on who gets what , Who gets to do business and at what price . IMO I don't know what to believe ? I'm in the middle slightly in favor of NO , There isn't a Viable structured organization, But I don't know ? Like I said earlier , I guess we just have to wait and see
This point would hold more weight if we had seen more consistent and significant mob activity around this major port of entry over the past 20 years. But we didn't. We saw one moderate-sized, cross-border drug bust in 2017. If more busts continued to happen like this going forward, there might be an argument. But there hasn't been. Rather, it's been the same as we saw before the 2017 bust. In other words, back to normal. Time will show that the 2017 bust was an outlier. The exception to the rule. Not the new normal or beginning of a new era. And one doesn't need a crystal ball to see it.
scagghiuni wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:49 amyes, but the particularity of buffalo is being next to canadian border and having a crew in canada, that's very different to have a crew in boston and the other in providence/rhode island, just to speak
While I do suspect much of what we've seen in Hamilton over the past few years has more to do with the Canadian underworld than Buffalo, in American LCN terms, Hamilton might as well be Egypt compared to New England.
