In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Discuss all mafia families in the U.S., Canada, Italy, and everywhere else in the world.

Moderator: Capos

Post Reply
User avatar
chin_gigante
Full Patched
Posts: 2574
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:36 pm

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by chin_gigante »

I wanted to give The Irishman a little time to mellow so I could mull over it before trying to articulate my thoughts. I’ve seen it twice now, once in the cinema a couple of weeks ago and again after it dropped on Netflix, and I maintain that it plays best on the big screen. The theatre experience certainly enhanced my engagement with the picture, and I was enthralled for every second of it. Though I appreciate the fact that a Netflix release will perhaps make this film accessible to a wider audience than those who would have otherwise seen it, I think there are more distractions embedded in the home-viewing experience and the film won’t flow as well when paused or broken into smaller chunks.

On the subject of the film’s gargantuan run-time, it absolutely flew by on both watches. This is definitely helped by the Goodfellas-esque pacing of the first two and a half hours, soundtrack choices, Scorsese’s kinetic camera work, Thelma Schoonmaker’s dynamic editing, and the overall tone. Zaillian’s script provides a lot of natural humour, it’s thoroughly engaging to watch the characters, even the minor appearances, interact with each other, and the comedy is elevated by the visual presentation and editing. There isn’t a scene or sequence that I’d wish were removed for time, it’s all beautiful, and every minute contributes to the sense of place or allows you to soak up the bond between the three leads, loading the film with the emotional impact of the final hour. The silent, slow march of the final hour gives the audience time to soak in just what has been lost and question the actions and decisions made in the first part, tying everything up and making the whole picture stand out as something very different from earlier entries in the gangster genre.

Actors with smaller roles like Ray Romano, Harvey Keitel and Sebastian Maniscalco bring a certain weight to their characters that they wouldn’t otherwise have and breathe life into their performances, without going overboard, leaving you with a genuine belief that they fit in this world. Romano is consistently entertaining, Keitel draws the eye with his steadfast presence and Maniscalco manages to convincingly evoke a volatile edge as Crazy Joe Gallo, each making the most of their limited screen-time.

The three leads are all performing at the top of their game. Al Pacino brings an explosive energy and genuine warmth that contrasts him with the rest of the cast and though he enjoys chewing the scenery when speaking to crowds or blowing up mid-conversation he never feels excessive or unbelievable. His performance as Hoffa is an evocation rather than an impression, and it works all the better for that. Joe Pesci carries with him a quiet, understated threat that is as impactful as any volatile role he is usually typecast in, and his last few scenes in prison are particularly moving thanks to an almost benign naiveite that informs his performance as a dying Russell Bufalino. Robert De Niro is equally reserved as Sheeran, creating a silent stoicism that is incredibly impactful when it begins to crack in the last two acts of the film. His stutter, becoming more pronounced as the character realises the emotional gulf between himself and those he cares about, or a momentary glint of deep fear or sadness in his eye, becomes more heart-breaking than if Sheeran was able to express or deal with his life’s worth of regrets, preventing him from finding the same peace Bufalino did or having anyone left to mourn him like Hoffa.

irishman.png

The CGI de-aging was admittedly distracting at first, on both watches. It takes a while to adjust once the film cuts to De Niro and Pesci in the 1950’s, but sooner rather than later I had forgot about it, and as the majority of the action takes place in the 1970’s, the de-aging was subtle enough to blend into the background completely. There were a couple of occasions where it was clear that the younger heads were on older bodies, such as when Sheeran crushes a man’s hand for shoving his daughter, but it didn’t impact my enjoyment of the film. That sequence was more noticeable I think due to the way it was shot, consistent with almost every act of violence in the film, which is overall highly effective. Framing the murders in wide, unbroken shots, often without music, adds a sense of perhaps mature respect to the act of taking a life, emphasising how quickly it happens from an almost omniscient perspective that removes the audience from the violence and forces them to question why any of this had to happen. The fact that Sheeran shoots Hoffa with the same cold, quick efficiency that he shot Whispers or Sally Bugs makes that final betrayal even more stark and places Frank under a microscope; he has nowhere to hide from the camera. After killing his best friend, the film cuts to a closeup of Sheeran as he looks down the hall to an empty room, as if he is being judged by an unknowable force.

Frank pays for his sins throughout the film through the slow deterioration of his relationship with his family, and Anna Paquin is perhaps the most important part of the film as her performance is key to that emotional punch. Through her facial expressions alone she’s able to express a mournful, knowing character who sees Frank as the audience sees him while being completely out of his emotional reach. Her silent presence is what invested me as she is able to somehow embody everything Frank lost without him realising it until it was too late. Had she been given more lines or had the two of them been given more screen-time I think, rather than adding to that punch, it would have detracted from the point of that arc completely, and I think Paquin is key to that role being as impactful as it is.

As to the fabricated nature of Sheeran and Brandt’s account of the Hoffa disappearance (and plenty of other claims), I don’t think that has any impact on that film’s quality or emotional resonance at all. As Scorsese has said, I don’t think the truth of the film is in trying to say this is what happened to Hoffa, the truth is in the relationships of the characters and the older, wiser perspective from which the audience looks down on this epic saga involving murders and unions and politics and war, how the lives of everyone involved are doomed to come crashing down in tragedy, and asks was any of it worth it? It’s not a film about the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa and the mob, it’s a film about regret and the passage of time.

It entertained, it’s been remarkably thought-provoking, and I suspect The Irishman will go down as emblematic of the heights of late-era Scorsese, De Niro, Pacino and Pesci.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
'You don't go crucifying people outside a church; not on Good Friday.'
User avatar
eboli
Full Patched
Posts: 1183
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:05 pm

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by eboli »

chin_gigante wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:11 am...
Nicely said, chin. I agree with everything you wrote. I think it's a special movie that will age as a fine wine as times goes on. I think if the viewer ignores the whole based on true events shtick, it flows a lot better as a fictional story about mistakes, and redemption that never comes.
TwoPiece
Sergeant Of Arms
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:10 am

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by TwoPiece »

i liked the movie.. definitely didn't feel like 3.5 hours. i was pleasantly surprised with herc from the wire playing fat tony, i thought they did a decent job there. i loved all the sets showing places like the friendly lounge, palma boys club, etc. the movie was truly an epic despite the fact that a lot of sheeran's claims are unsubstantiated, i take it for what it is. also liked stephen graham as tony pro.
TwoPiece
Sergeant Of Arms
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:10 am

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by TwoPiece »

i will say i thought that was really deniro in the scene where he stomps the guys arm, cause he was moving slow as hell. looked like those stomps wouldn't have crushed an ant :lol: also sil from the sopranos lip synching as jerry vale.. small things though when it comes down to it. still loved the movie.
User avatar
Grouchy Sinatra
Full Patched
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by Grouchy Sinatra »

Sheeran's daughters could give his claims validity. If one of them disowned him the second news broke that Hoffa disappeared, it would be an indication that she knew he had something to do with it.
Glick told author Nicholas Pileggi that he expected to meet a banker-type individual, but instead, he found Alvin Baron to be a gruff, tough-talking cigar-chomping Teamster who greeted him with, “What the fuck do you want?”
User avatar
eboli
Full Patched
Posts: 1183
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:05 pm

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by eboli »

TwoPiece wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:07 am i will say i thought that was really deniro in the scene where he stomps the guys arm, cause he was moving slow as hell. looked like those stomps wouldn't have crushed an ant :lol: also sil from the sopranos lip synching as jerry vale.. small things though when it comes down to it. still loved the movie.
I thought they looked like shit throughout the movie. De Niro was very slow and stiff in his action scenes. In the early segments Sheeran was supposed to be in his mid to late-30s. :lol:

342524.png

Even with the old man mannerisms and awful cgi the movie was very good, and it would've been brilliant, if it was made 20 years ago.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
johnny_scootch
Full Patched
Posts: 3052
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:48 am

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by johnny_scootch »

I saw it in the theater a few weeks ago and didn't really get into what I thought besides that it was a disappointment but almost everyone I know that has seen it agrees that it isn't good. That scene when Deniro beats up the grocer outside his store was absolutely horrendous. A great supporting cast with a terribly overrated Deniro.
Ozgoz
Straightened out
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:20 am

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by Ozgoz »

Seen the first hour.... I can’t get into it.

The shots are the same as Goodfellas going from person to person.

The laundry shots are like the fur coat scenes in Goodfellas.

The worst thing is the characters look like they’ve been pulled out of Dick Tracy.

Actually what is worse is it’s like “here’s Hoffa.” 30 secs later...... “Hoffa and Sheeran are best friends”

30 secs later .. “Hoffa gets on well with the daughter”

No depth, no character build up, nothing. Just trying to scrap the barrel of old magic.

I can follow it because I know about the mob, but my GF is sitting there saying, why is the Harvey Kietel character in it?

Ugh man..
WHHAAT MUUUYDAAAAH???????
baldo
Straightened out
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by baldo »

Finally saw it last night. I loved it but I gotta say Deniro was miscast. He just seems too stiff and old when he moved. I always imagined Sheeran more like ray Stevenson (guy who played Danny Greene). Was cool seeing all the familiar faces (baby sitter from Goodfellas, beansie, Silvio, crazy Mario from Bronx tale playing david ferrie whom Pesci played in JFK, etc). I think people who didn’t like it were expecting goodfellas part 2 with a lot of snappy lines and funny scenes. My two cents.
User avatar
bert
Full Patched
Posts: 1986
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:58 pm

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by bert »

Ozgoz wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:42 am Seen the first hour.... I can’t get into it.

The shots are the same as Goodfellas going from person to person.

The laundry shots are like the fur coat scenes in Goodfellas.

The worst thing is the characters look like they’ve been pulled out of Dick Tracy.

Actually what is worse is it’s like “here’s Hoffa.” 30 secs later...... “Hoffa and Sheeran are best friends”

30 secs later .. “Hoffa gets on well with the daughter”

No depth, no character build up, nothing. Just trying to scrap the barrel of old magic.

I can follow it because I know about the mob, but my GF is sitting there saying, why is the Harvey Kietel character in it?

Ugh man..
That's a good summary of it. I tried to finish it and stopped with another half hour to go. I'll watch it till the end when I have time, but it is awful.
User avatar
Pogo The Clown
Men Of Mayhem
Posts: 14147
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:02 am

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by Pogo The Clown »

I found it entertaining but yeah DeNiro was too old for the role. Even with all the cgi he still looked really old. It was jarring hearing Pesci refer to him as a kid during the early portion. It hurt the whole Bufalino as an older mentor to Sheeran part of the story. They should have kept DeNiro for the narration and the last parts but used a younger actor for the rest of the movie. Pacino was a good as Hoffa but again he looked ancient.


The story was a bit disjointed and I can see the average person who is not a mob buff being lost for a lot of it. Especially when the story does that big jump from the JFK assassination in 1963 to the Colombo shooting. The average movie viewer would have no idea who Colombo is or know what that scene was about and thus not know that the film is now in the 1970s. The only thing that hints at it is a reference to Nixons re-election. It seems they tried to cram too much into the movie. Would have been better with a little more streamlining of the story.


All in all I'll go with a very slight thumbs up.


Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
baldo
Straightened out
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by baldo »

Agree the transitions were a bit weird. My wife couldn’t understand why joe columbo was killed lol.
User avatar
Grouchy Sinatra
Full Patched
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:33 pm

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by Grouchy Sinatra »

Nobody could understand the Colombo shooting, including the bosses at that time, like Buffalino. That's the point. Their amazement and as much that is known about the background of the shooting is explained by Sheeran's voice over in the ensuing scenes as "Sleepwalk" by Santo and Johnny plays. What's interesting is that Joe Colombo's name is never mentioned in these scenes. The shooting in the movie is a device to set up the Gallo hit, along with his disrespect of Buffalino over Buffalino wearing the Italian Civil Rights pen at his birthday party hosted by Don Rickles.
Glick told author Nicholas Pileggi that he expected to meet a banker-type individual, but instead, he found Alvin Baron to be a gruff, tough-talking cigar-chomping Teamster who greeted him with, “What the fuck do you want?”
Nepa31
Straightened out
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:50 am

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by Nepa31 »

Go download the Bufalino FBI file I just posted in the FBI files section and then ask yourself if Bufalino had anything to do with Gallo getting killed, and if Sheeran killed Hoffa or not. It’s a little over 1100 pages but about 300 are devoted to the FBI having the opinion that Bufalino was involved in not only those two murders but Anastasia’s as well. Those arent my words, those are the words of multiple G men from the 50s thru 1994 when Bufalino passed.
CabriniGreen
Full Patched
Posts: 3156
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:09 am

Re: In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

Post by CabriniGreen »

The scene where Pacino chastised his staff for, whatever it was, some fuckup, and hes screaming " I'm going to jail bacause of you stupid mutherfuckers!"...

That shit was hard to watch, because I'm almost positive Pacino forgot the lines there....
Post Reply