In Hoffa's Shadow author takes apart "Irishman" myth

[dack2001]

Goldsmith's Detroit version rings much closer to the truth. I also him 100 times more credible than Foxnews contributor Dan Moldea. I'm sure he's sending out a book proposal as we speak. Sally Bugs goes to Detroit, kills Hoffa, and ships him back to New Jersey? So they can all get indicted? Never made sense.

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/09/2 ... ime-story/

[TommyNoto]

Goldsmith's Detroit version rings much closer to the truth. I also him 100 times more credible than Foxnews contributor Dan Moldea. I'm sure he's sending out a book proposal as we speak. Sally Bugs goes to Detroit, kills Hoffa, and ships him back to New Jersey? So they can all get indicted? Never made sense.

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/09/2 ... ime-story/

Unless your a professional murderer or were high in the mafia it’s never going to make sense to civilians. They got away with it which is all that mattered to them.

[Frank]

Goldsmith's Detroit version rings much closer to the truth. I also him 100 times more credible than Foxnews contributor Dan Moldea. I'm sure he's sending out a book proposal as we speak. Sally Bugs goes to Detroit, kills Hoffa, and ships him back to New Jersey? So they can all get indicted? Never made sense.

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/09/2 ... ime-story/

Provenzano wanted the body brought to New Jersey as a trophy. Ok look at it this way. If Detroit got a bug up their ass with Hoffa and they alone decided to kill him, then why would they get Provenzano name mixed up in it by using a meeting with him as bait. I just don't see how Tony Pro isn't involved.

[dack2001]

Pro being involved and killing him in Detroit and shipping him back to New Jersey are two very different things. I don't believe that Provenzano does a hit in Detroit, especially Hoffa, without the Detroit family taking the lead. History teaches us that it would be unusual to say the least for another family to come into another family's area to hit a guy who belongs to that family. Sometimes guys would be whacked by another family when they couldn't get at their own guy but this is the opposite. Hoffa would be looking for Pro to make the move. Then they ship him back to New Jersey? C'mon, that strains credulity. think Moldea is inserting himself into this case now for the publicity. This business about the dump isn't exactly new news and I think it wraps up the Hoffa matter into a neat little bow for everyone who wants answers but I don't think its closer to the truth than Frank Sheeran's version.

[Frank]

Pro being involved and killing him in Detroit and shipping him back to New Jersey are two very different things. I don't believe that Provenzano does a hit in Detroit, especially Hoffa, without the Detroit family taking the lead. History teaches us that it would be unusual to say the least for another family to come into another family's area to hit a guy who belongs to that family. Sometimes guys would be whacked by another family when they couldn't get at their own guy but this is the opposite. Hoffa would be looking for Pro to make the move. Then they ship him back to New Jersey? C'mon, that strains credulity. think Moldea is inserting himself into this case now for the publicity. This business about the dump isn't exactly new news and I think it wraps up the Hoffa matter into a neat little bow for everyone who wants answers but I don't think its closer to the truth than Frank Sheeran's version.

I can see your point. You have your opinion and that's cool. With the movie comming out it brings the subject up and also different theories. Even with Bufalino in town for a wedding, I don't believe he ordered the hit. I still believe it was a Commission sanctioned hit. But that can be a whole topic in itself. I can see the Bosses putting Provenzano in charge of the hit and the best plan would be to hit him in Detroit. Now obviously the Detroit Family had to be involved, just for the simple fact of the Genoveses not knowing the Detroit area.

[dack2001]

Excellent article by Jack Goldsmith that torches Brandt's "Paint Houses" book piece by piece. Brandt's book may be an outright fraud, very interesting he isn't doing any interviews. Leads me to believe he doesn't want anyone asking anymore questions like Goldsmith asks.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/are-claims- ... shman-true

[Nicholas]

Wasn't this book and Sheeran debunked back on the forum that everyone went on before the Real Deal forum?

[dack2001]

Yeah, people have been chipping away at this book for years. I thought Goldsmith's takedown including some really good information, especially from FBI files and Charlie Allen's cooperation.

[bert]

Wasn't this book and Sheeran debunked back on the forum that everyone went on before the Real Deal forum?

It was considered a fake everywhere, until Scorsese said he was making a movie on it. Then people started wanting the Sheeran story to be true, and convincing themselves and others it was, like a cult.

[Pete]

When he says killer I think he’s actually referring to driver. Everyone knows chuckie didn’t kill him but it sounds like billy Giacalone might have been the guy that picked him up and not chuckie

[Pete]

Pro being involved and killing him in Detroit and shipping him back to New Jersey are two very different things. I don't believe that Provenzano does a hit in Detroit, especially Hoffa, without the Detroit family taking the lead. History teaches us that it would be unusual to say the least for another family to come into another family's area to hit a guy who belongs to that family. Sometimes guys would be whacked by another family when they couldn't get at their own guy but this is the opposite. Hoffa would be looking for Pro to make the move. Then they ship him back to New Jersey? C'mon, that strains credulity. think Moldea is inserting himself into this case now for the publicity. This business about the dump isn't exactly new news and I think it wraps up the Hoffa matter into a neat little bow for everyone who wants answers but I don't think its closer to the truth than Frank Sheeran's version.

Remember tho this is a time before internet computers etc by the time they knew he was for sure missing he could have been back in jersey as it’s a 12 ish hour drive

[Fughedaboutit]

I like how Sheeran or any theory can be exactly debunked when it is an unsolved murder where all the key players that did know anything are long gone.

If nobody knows who did it or the details, how can you rule anyone out?

[Hired_Goonz]

Yea I was pretty cynical about this Goldsmith guy writing this book, but he's completely torn apart Sheeran's Kuklinski-esque BS here. I never read the paint houses book but lol at the part where he claims to have supplied the rifle that killed JFK. Very telling that Brandt won't do interviews about this book that's made him a lot of money.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Wasn't this book and Sheeran debunked back on the forum that everyone went on before the Real Deal forum?

It was considered a fake everywhere, until Scorsese said he was making a movie on it. Then people started wanting the Sheeran story to be true, and convincing themselves and others it was, like a cult.

I'm a Scorsese fan, couldn't wait for this movie, and I didn't "want" Sheeran's story to be true. In fact I've always believed Sheeran is mostly full of it. I don't believe he killed Hoffa and definitely don't believe he killed Joe Gallo. I watched it as a fictional film "based" on a true story which is what all of Scorsese's films have been (as they've all taken liberties with the facts). Scorsese is a cinematic genius and his films are a journey (that being said, I'd say the Irishman ranks near the bottom of his mob movies, but still worth seeing). Most people I've talked to who enjoyed the movie were in mind of Sheeran's story being highly questionable, if not farcical. Some people are just better at separating entertainment from fact than others.

[Bklyn21]

This movie sucked IMO ! Felt like I was watching the same old BS Casino/Goodfellas . Sheeran killed Gallo ?? Lmaooo Now that was real over the Top reaching BS ! I have no idea about Hoffa ? Possible but I don't believe it