Is Pittsburgh alive?

[Moscone65]

Why don’t you guys just make nyc5fams4life.com and stay there, or better yet, themobsisathingofthepast.net, fucking annoying with you guys always spewing the same shit when people just wanna talk and not be constantly shit down. Vattin a napule, tremonn’

It's not about rooting for the New York families at the expense of other families. It's about keeping things in their proper perspective.

There are roughly 900 LCN members left in the country.

The New York families make up about 80% of that. Add in the only four other families - New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago - that law enforcement and OC experts have consistently recognized for years, and you're up to around 95%.

That leaves maybe 50 guys for everywhere else there is still a made guy breathing - Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, St. Louis, Kansas City, Tampa, New Orleans, Denver, and Los Angeles.

Pittsburgh, Denver, Cleveland and la are very few, may 10+ ish altogether. Tampa and New Orleans similar scenario. Plus you got to give space for unaccounted made members, which may have been a decent amount specifically in buffalo where violi suggests he was “made” and KC where there are still quite a lot of connected guys and money to be made. So say another 15, total reasonable guesstimate. 55 made guys split between buffalo, Detroit, and KC for instance. That’s an average of slightly less than 20 guys per family. Combine that with an average of 2-3 associates per made guy (some probably have a lot more), and you have enough members for small but still established families.

KC has "slightly less than 20 guys?"

Lots of made guys still in KC, the cammissano’s, jimmy Morettina, the Simone’s, just to name a few.

[Wiseguy]

I find the theory that the New York families have taken over the rackets of other families like Pittsburgh, completely hilarious. I'd like to know how this proposed takeover goes, in the 21st Century. How do they instigate such a takeover? How do they know who to ask? How do they know where to look for these families' rackets, especially when these families have had little-to-no communication with New York families in at least 20 years.

Does Liborio Bellomo whip out his computer, google who the last-known boss of the Pittsburgh Mafia, and flick him an email? Does he pay for two of his underlings to fly up and scope out his address? Is it worth going to Pittsburgh to shake down an old geezer's video poker gig?

I understand the argument that the New York mobsters use longstanding connections to these stagnant families, like L.A., to assume them into their organization. For example, the Colombo family has former consigliere Dominic Montemarano living in Beverly Hills, where he maintained (or possibly still maintains) social connections to certain L.A. mobsters. But what happens from there? Does Montemarano have to interrogate a bunch of old men to see if they're still "operating?" Is it like a biker-style "patch over?"

I just want to know how this theory of "Mafia centralization" actually happens in crime families like Pittsburgh or L.A., where ties to New York are minimal at best. Other than certain cases like how the Gambinos apparently assumed the Tampa Mob's operations, or how the DeCavalcantes began to "run under the fucking Gambinos" (as Charles Stango put it), how can we confidently assume that this happens anywhere else? I think that theory relies on the belief that the Mafia has a well-oiled corporate structure, or that the nationwide Commission is still a ruling Mafia body.

Also, I would like to here the forum's take on this. Do you think anybody in the Chicago Mafia has a direct link to any New York mobsters? Would anybody from a New York family recognize anybody from the Outfit in a police lineup? To take it further, does the Detroit mob have any direct link to New York either?

Even Tampa and the DeCavalcantes are not good examples of what is being alleged by some. What was left of the Tampa family simply aligned themselves with the Gambinos. Yes, the Gambinos were that area but the NY families have been in Florida for years. So, it wasn't necessarily a case of them saying, "Looks like the Trafficantes are finished, let's move in." And, in any event, that was like 20 years ago. A better example is when the Gambinos and Genovese moved into New Orleans to teamed up with what was left of the Marcellos in the early 1990's. But that's going even further back. But we really don't see examples of this today, which is in keeping with the general trend of the mob's sphere of influence shrinking, not expanding. The five NY families have their hands full holding onto what they have in their own territory.

As for your question about Chicago and Detroit, some guys may know each other on a social level. But there isn't any examples of recent business dealings. They almost could be on another world at this point. Part of the mob's shrinking sphere of influence has been the connections between families disappearing over the years. You basically have New York. Then three families small families sort of orbiting around it, so to speak, in the Northeast. And then Chicago out on an island.

Can anyone do a list of all the fams that had satellite crews??

For ie:

Gambino:
-took over trafficante possibly
-ductates decavs
- possible LA connection w Rosario Gambino son

Genoves:
-springfield crew
-??baltimore crew after Gambino's left??

Bonannos:
-past AZ crew doubt any still around
-past Cali crew??
-canada crew
-possible buffalo connectons

Philly:
-Boston crew

Again, the Gambinos didn't take over the Trafficantes. As for satellite crews, if you're talking beyond their main territory, there's lots years ago. Gambinos and Genovese in Connecticut. All the NY families in Florida. Chicago in Las Vegas and elsewhere out west. Detroit in San Diego. And so on.

Pittsburgh, Denver, Cleveland and la are very few, may 10+ ish altogether. Tampa and New Orleans similar scenario. Plus you got to give space for unaccounted made members, which may have been a decent amount specifically in buffalo where violi suggests he was “made” and KC where there are still quite a lot of connected guys and money to be made. So say another 15, total reasonable guesstimate. 55 made guys split between buffalo, Detroit, and KC for instance. That’s an average of slightly less than 20 guys per family. Combine that with an average of 2-3 associates per made guy (some probably have a lot more), and you have enough members for small but still established families.

Lots of assumptions here.

Pittsburgh has 1 member. Denver has 1 member. Cleveland has 4 members. Tampa, 5 members I believe. New Orleans 1 member.

Buffalo has 13 known members. Constant decline for years now. There aren't a bunch of guys flying under the radar.

And where do you get the idea that there's a lot of money to be made in Kansas City? Whoever is left there doesn't seem to be very active in making it. Only 7 identifiable members that I can tell. Not much different from those cities above.

And speaking of identifiable members, Detroit is in the same boat Buffalo is. Clear decline for years now. Similar membership based on members who can be shown to be made. Not bloated lists based on bullshit. If you want to combine those three, you're more likely looking at 30-35 or so.

Buffalo, Detroit, and Kansas City lasted longer into the 1990's than most of those other families, and there may be more made guys still alive, but you're still looking at remnants at this point.

Lots of made guys still in KC, the cammissano’s, jimmy Morettina, the Simone’s, just to name a few.

I have a bridge to sell anyone who believes Kansas City has slightly less than 20 members today.

[cavita]

I feel like I’m an intelligent guy and I try to do as thorough of a research job as I can and only try to post quality things to bring about intelligent discussion. With that being said I know better when people post about how they think Milwaukee, New Orleans, etc. still have a big (but under the radar) mafia presence. I smile, shake my head and move on without much more thought and it doesn’t bother me. What really fucking bugs the shit out of me is why you have to champion the cause of trying to educate everyone out there with you dissecting posts with your quotes, mind numbing statistics and FBI references like you’re writing your Harvard dissertation. Honestly, I haven’t fully read through a post of yours in over a year simply because of this and I am 100 percent sure you actually salivate when a new poster comes to the board wondering if there’s mafia activity in a dead city. Maybe this should have been posted in the Graveyard Section, maybe I should be suspended/banned, whatever. My two cents and I’m probably not the only one that feels this way. Anyway, I’m done- I won’t get into any arguments over it and won’t respond further. Moving right along….

[aleksandrored]

I did not know existed about 900 members active LCN, so in NY we would have 720 members and about 3000 associates?

[Wiseguy]

Honestly, I haven’t fully read through a post of yours in over a year simply because of this

Wait, what? Well why didn't you tell me? The whole reason I come on this forum is so you will read my posts. I've been wasting my energy all this time.

and I am 100 percent sure you actually salivate when a new poster comes to the board wondering if there’s mafia activity in a dead city.

More like cringe.

I did not know existed about 900 members active LCN, so in NY we would have 720 members and about 3000 associates?

About 900 total members in the U.S. Active, inactive, and in prison.

The NY families have combined approximately 700 total members.

Associates figures are harder to pin down because it comes down to how one defines an associate. And why you see such a range of estimates. It's often up to the local FBI SAC to make the estimate.

10 associates for every member has often been the figure thrown out. Lazily, in my opinion, and probably way too generous. Especially today. Though, again, if you have a loose enough definition, I suppose it could be that much. On the other end, for the NY families, 3 associates for every member has also been estimated. I've also seen 5 associates for every member.

[UTC]

Maybe a little more context is necessary. Are we talking about actual activity from what's known as the LaRocca or Pittsburgh crime family? Are we talking about surviving members of this family still involved with rackets yet not necessarily working as an organization? Are we talking about members of this family merely being alive still? Are we talking about any kind of traditional organized crime rackets taking place in Pittsburgh, connected to the LaRocca family or not?

I believe someone said there's made guys from NY families operating in Pittsburgh. This I tend to believe. Most of these families started off with people who were there by way of NY or Chicago anyway, or were heavily connected to people from there. All roads lead back to NY and Chicago, do they not?

First, at this stage, there's no "all roads lead back to New York and..." It's just New York now. Chicago can no longer be spoken of in the sense you are, where they're a twin mob capital.

Second, that doesn't mean there's New York members active in Pittsburgh. There's zero evidence of that. The ongoing trend has been the sphere of activity shrinking, not expanding with New York families moving into other territories.

Third, Pittsburgh is one of the best examples of what I've been talking about. One of the cases the original poster may have been talking about was in 2013 when there waa a big video poker machine bust (354 machines in 70 locations). Sports betting and numbers were also included in the charges.

Among the 16 charged were Ronald "Porky" Melocchi Sr. (ring leader, owner of Back Alley Vending), Jeffrey Risha (a bookmaker who had been involved in a 2001 Pittsburgh LCN gambling case), Kirk Mollica (son of late Pittsburgh LCN associate Primo Mollica), and Rodney Iannelli (son of Pittsburgh LCN associate Robert "Bobby I" Iannelli), Joseph Nistico (nephew of former Philadelphia LCN boss Nicodemo “Little Nicky” Scarfo).

To top it all off, this case had started with an investigation into an increase in McKeesport annual sanitation costs (i.e the garbage business), and found Melocchi has donated thousands of dollars to local politicians.

This is the kind of thing a lot of people on the forum, who don't know any better, would jump on immediately. Guys with mob connections? Gambling? The waste industry? Political corruption? Surely the Pittsburgh family must still be going.

Nope.

It's just remnants now. And Buffalo is essentially no different. There may be more made guys still alive in Buffalo you're also just looking at remnants at this point.

Here's a mid-2018 case. The AG said gambling is often tied toi OC, but no mention of it in this case. https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/taking- ... thwest-pa/

[gohnjotti]

10 associates for every member has often been the figure thrown out. Lazily, in my opinion, and probably way too generous. Especially today. Though, again, if you have a loose enough definition, I suppose it could be that much. On the other end, for the NY families, 3 associates for every member has also been estimated. I've also seen 5 associates for every member.

In my humble opinion, any sort of estimate like that is not only lazy, it's ridiculous. I know you never made a claim like that, WG, but this goes for anyone who wants to start throwing around numbers like that. Every single member of the Mafia is like an independent contractor, doing their own things under the auspices of the family. There is no limit to how many associates a person can have. Oftentimes, associates themselves don't even know they're on record with somebody. Made members from different families will quarrel over which particular associate is "theirs."

Just out of boredom, I tried to "estimate" the number of on-record associates for different Colombo underbosses over the years, just to illustrate how frivulous these estimates are.
William Cutolo: Approximately 15-20 on-record associates showing up at his club twice a week. That excludes anybody in the associates' organization. For instance, Cutolo's on-record associate Ronnie Califano had dozens of members in his operation, all acting under the protection of Cutolo.
John DeRoss: No more than 3 known associates. This is from court testimony by Silvio Salome, who recalled that Jackie hung around him, his driver, and his nephew Skippy. His sons were also involved.
Tommy Gioeli: Court testimony shows that he had, at any given time, 3-6 core members of the Bay Parkway Boys who were on-record with him. He also protected various Joker-Poker proprietors and batted for them at times, such as Roger Califano and others.
Sonny Franzese: Anybody's guess. FBI agents investigating him during the 2000s (his tenure as underboss) named 15 members of Sonny's Greenpoint crew, and noted "there would be others." On the list, he missed out key associates like Michael Catapano, Guy Fatato, and John Franzese Jr. Of the 15 members named, 10 were not made, or were made at some point during Franzese's tenure as underboss. So that's 10 members, plus some more key guys such as Michael Catapano, Guy Fatato, John Franzese Jr., Chris Curanovic, Ori Spado, and that's just off the top of my head. That's at least 15 guys, with anywhere between 0-10 more people I might have missed or don't know. Plus the numerous associates linked to these associates.
Benjamin Castellazzo: 13 associates were busted with him in the gambling case from Sep. 2000, but evidence suggests there may have been more people involved, including Favuzza's son Emanuele Jr. There were at least 14 on-record associates.

And it gets more and more frivulous the further you go down the chain. I can think of a few Colombo soldiers who, at times, had zero on-record associates (Vincent DeMartino, Ralph Scopo Jr.) and others who had upwards of 15 (Joseph Rotunno, Mickey Souza, possibly Michael Uvino). It's senseless.

[Pogo The Clown]

The associate ratios also differ across families. For example the DeCavalcantes barely have a 1:1 member to associate ratio. While the NY families it is typically 1:5 give or take. It also changes over time. For example Philly had a 1:5 ratio under Scarfo but by the Ligambi era it had dropped to 1:2.


A lot of the smaller families had very low member to associate ratios. Rochester for example appeared to have very few associates.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

The associate ratios also differ across families. For example the DeCavalcantes barely have a 1:1 member to associate ratio. While the NY families it is typically 1:5 give or take. It also changes over time. For example Philly had a 1:5 ratio under Scarfo but by the Ligambi era it had dropped to 1:2.


A lot of the smaller families had very low member to associate ratios. Rochester for example appeared to have very few associates.


Pogo

Yeah, they are very fluid and the ratio is not uniform across the families. The best examples you'll get are not some general one-size-fits all figure but those examples you gave above; the New Jersey and Philly ones being from the 2004 New Jersey OC report. Another example is when the FBI said the Outfit had a little over 100 associates for the 28 members at the time in 2005. Which would obviously be about 1:4.

[maxiestern11]

10 associates for every member has often been the figure thrown out. Lazily, in my opinion, and probably way too generous. Especially today. Though, again, if you have a loose enough definition, I suppose it could be that much. On the other end, for the NY families, 3 associates for every member has also been estimated. I've also seen 5 associates for every member.

In my humble opinion, any sort of estimate like that is not only lazy, it's ridiculous. I know you never made a claim like that, WG, but this goes for anyone who wants to start throwing around numbers like that. Every single member of the Mafia is like an independent contractor, doing their own things under the auspices of the family. There is no limit to how many associates a person can have. Oftentimes, associates themselves don't even know they're on record with somebody. Made members from different families will quarrel over which particular associate is "theirs."

Just out of boredom, I tried to "estimate" the number of on-record associates for different Colombo underbosses over the years, just to illustrate how frivulous these estimates are.
William Cutolo: Approximately 15-20 on-record associates showing up at his club twice a week. That excludes anybody in the associates' organization. For instance, Cutolo's on-record associate Ronnie Califano had dozens of members in his operation, all acting under the protection of Cutolo.
John DeRoss: No more than 3 known associates. This is from court testimony by Silvio Salome, who recalled that Jackie hung around him, his driver, and his nephew Skippy. His sons were also involved.
Tommy Gioeli: Court testimony shows that he had, at any given time, 3-6 core members of the Bay Parkway Boys who were on-record with him. He also protected various Joker-Poker proprietors and batted for them at times, such as Roger Califano and others.
Sonny Franzese: Anybody's guess. FBI agents investigating him during the 2000s (his tenure as underboss) named 15 members of Sonny's Greenpoint crew, and noted "there would be others." On the list, he missed out key associates like Michael Catapano, Guy Fatato, and John Franzese Jr. Of the 15 members named, 10 were not made, or were made at some point during Franzese's tenure as underboss. So that's 10 members, plus some more key guys such as Michael Catapano, Guy Fatato, John Franzese Jr., Chris Curanovic, Ori Spado, and that's just off the top of my head. That's at least 15 guys, with anywhere between 0-10 more people I might have missed or don't know. Plus the numerous associates linked to these associates.
Benjamin Castellazzo: 13 associates were busted with him in the gambling case from Sep. 2000, but evidence suggests there may have been more people involved, including Favuzza's son Emanuele Jr. There were at least 14 on-record associates.

And it gets more and more frivulous the further you go down the chain. I can think of a few Colombo soldiers who, at times, had zero on-record associates (Vincent DeMartino, Ralph Scopo Jr.) and others who had upwards of 15 (Joseph Rotunno, Mickey Souza, possibly Michael Uvino). It's senseless.

Bingo!.... good analogy Gohn.

[gohnjotti]

The associate ratios also differ across families. For example the DeCavalcantes barely have a 1:1 member to associate ratio. While the NY families it is typically 1:5 give or take. It also changes over time. For example Philly had a 1:5 ratio under Scarfo but by the Ligambi era it had dropped to 1:2.


A lot of the smaller families had very low member to associate ratios. Rochester for example appeared to have very few associates.


Pogo

All due respect, Pogo... says who? Is this coming from the FBI?
The thing is, the Mafia themselves do not keep track on who is and who is not an associate. So how could the FBI, the media, or anybody else come up with an estimate like that?

Is an associate somebody who is involved in criminal affairs with a made guy? Or does an associate only become an associate once a made member vouches for him, or stands up for him in a sit-down?

[Pogo The Clown]

Those are LE numbers.


Pogo

[Fughedaboutit]

Those are LE numbers.


Pogo

Then post the source those figures came from instead of simply citing them.

[Pogo The Clown]

Those are LE numbers.


Pogo

Then post the source those figures came from instead of simply citing them.

Why don't you OD already? Do us all a favor.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

All due respect, Pogo... says who? Is this coming from the FBI?
The thing is, the Mafia themselves do not keep track on who is and who is not an associate. So how could the FBI, the media, or anybody else come up with an estimate like that?

Is an associate somebody who is involved in criminal affairs with a made guy? Or does an associate only become an associate once a made member vouches for him, or stands up for him in a sit-down?

Law enforcement gets these figures the same way they do everything else - through investigation. While they're investigating made guys, they're also monitoring those that associate with them. The general guideline for how they define an associate are those that participate in continual crimes with the mob. And, as I said, it's typically up to the local FBI SAC to estimate how many associates a family has.

Then post the source those figures came from instead of simply citing them.

As has already been stated, the estimates for the New Jersey and Philadelphia families come from the 2004 New Jersey Commission of Investigation report on organized crime. The estimate for Chicago came from the FBI in 2007 during the Family Secrets Trial.