The Chicago Outfit (discussion)

[Pete]

I've read it in a number of places, one being below -
18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.
http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php

Thanks, Wiseguy. The statement does give credence to your allegation that the FBI generally requires corroboration from two other made members that a third person is a made member in Chicago: Retired Agent O'Rourke worked OC in Chicago and was a field instructor on LCN.

Also, to put it into context, that quote comes from an affidavit written by O'Rourke, a now retired (20 years ago) FBI agent, to qualify himself as an expert in an administrative hearing for the Laborers' International Union of No. Amer., not a current day affidavit used to qualify an active FBI Agent in obtaining a search warrant or an arrest warrant. Also, I don't recall necessarily seeing that language in any of the several indictments we've all shared in the past; those that identified made members of certain New York families. Thus, my reticence.

I tried looking up the FBI's LCN "Program Implementation Guide" before typing this. I couldn't find it and believe it may be "classified." Perhaps we have an Agent on this board who can look up the PIG and confirm that the aforementioned requirement is a bureau-wide policy?

Another thing to remember about the outfit is according to Nick calabrese most guys didn't even know who guys in other crews were and he said jimmy lapietra broke an outfit rule by telling Nick about the 88 ceremony supposedly you weren't supposed to tell anyone that wasn't there even if they were made themselves which is a little different from ny who introduces everyone as soon as they're made as a friend of ours

[bobbybats]

And that's the point.

One is an argument about a gross distortion of the facts, the other, about ones feelings.

I hope your feelings will also Chris, with time....

But maybe I can apply a salve with an apology for not abstaining.
My apologies.

What facts, no one has any facts which is exactly why this never ending argument never fucking ends. Both sides have laid out their positions and provided what supporting evidence they have, now just let the board look at both sides and allow each person to make their own decisions.

[rayray]

I will raise you 2 Colombo's and a Lucchese

[cavita]

I've read it in a number of places, one being below -
18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.
http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php

Thanks, Wiseguy. The statement does give credence to your allegation that the FBI generally requires corroboration from two other made members that a third person is a made member in Chicago: Retired Agent O'Rourke worked OC in Chicago and was a field instructor on LCN.

Also, to put it into context, that quote comes from an affidavit written by O'Rourke, a now retired (20 years ago) FBI agent, to qualify himself as an expert in an administrative hearing for the Laborers' International Union of No. Amer., not a current day affidavit used to qualify an active FBI Agent in obtaining a search warrant or an arrest warrant. Also, I don't recall necessarily seeing that language in any of the several indictments we've all shared in the past; those that identified made members of certain New York families. Thus, my reticence.

I tried looking up the FBI's LCN "Program Implementation Guide" before typing this. I couldn't find it and believe it may be "classified." Perhaps we have an Agent on this board who can look up the PIG and confirm that the aforementioned requirement is a bureau-wide policy?

Another thing to remember about the outfit is according to Nick calabrese most guys didn't even know who guys in other crews were and he said jimmy lapietra broke an outfit rule by telling Nick about the 88 ceremony supposedly you weren't supposed to tell anyone that wasn't there even if they were made themselves which is a little different from ny who introduces everyone as soon as they're made as a friend of ours

Valid point, Pete. Nick Calabrese did admit to that. Most likely to add to the insulation.

[Pete]

I've read it in a number of places, one being below -
18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.
http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php

Thanks, Wiseguy. The statement does give credence to your allegation that the FBI generally requires corroboration from two other made members that a third person is a made member in Chicago: Retired Agent O'Rourke worked OC in Chicago and was a field instructor on LCN.

Also, to put it into context, that quote comes from an affidavit written by O'Rourke, a now retired (20 years ago) FBI agent, to qualify himself as an expert in an administrative hearing for the Laborers' International Union of No. Amer., not a current day affidavit used to qualify an active FBI Agent in obtaining a search warrant or an arrest warrant. Also, I don't recall necessarily seeing that language in any of the several indictments we've all shared in the past; those that identified made members of certain New York families. Thus, my reticence.

I tried looking up the FBI's LCN "Program Implementation Guide" before typing this. I couldn't find it and believe it may be "classified." Perhaps we have an Agent on this board who can look up the PIG and confirm that the aforementioned requirement is a bureau-wide policy?

Another thing to remember about the outfit is according to Nick calabrese most guys didn't even know who guys in other crews were and he said jimmy lapietra broke an outfit rule by telling Nick about the 88 ceremony supposedly you weren't supposed to tell anyone that wasn't there even if they were made themselves which is a little different from ny who introduces everyone as soon as they're made as a friend of ours

Valid point, Pete. Nick Calabrese did admit to that. Most likely to add to the insulation.

Right most people forget that LE thought Nick was just a flunky, had no idea he was made or all the work he had done. I mean he still may have been a flunky but being made put him above the other flunkys as lapietra told him at the time you now have a some insurance on your life, not a lot but some

[Slick]

Exactly Pete. That will also make it really tough to call someone made, because you would have to get two made guys, who were present at recent ceremonies, to turn informant to be able to call someone made. Now this doesn't mean they are flying under the FBI's radar, just that the G doesn't have enough info to call them made. There are plenty of people involved in the Outfit that none of us know about, except for maybe some posters from Chicago and law enforcement. For example Mike Davis who is an associate of Solly D, who I'm sure most people on the boards didn't know about.

[B.]

Another thing to remember about the outfit is according to Nick calabrese most guys didn't even know who guys in other crews were and he said jimmy lapietra broke an outfit rule by telling Nick about the 88 ceremony supposedly you weren't supposed to tell anyone that wasn't there even if they were made themselves which is a little different from ny who introduces everyone as soon as they're made as a friend of ours

This isn't about Chicago, but according to one informant, the Luccheses in NY had a similar "rule" many decades ago where they discouraged members from being introduced to other families, I guess unless it was absolutely necessary.

[funkster]

Another thing to remember about the outfit is according to Nick calabrese most guys didn't even know who guys in other crews were and he said jimmy lapietra broke an outfit rule by telling Nick about the 88 ceremony supposedly you weren't supposed to tell anyone that wasn't there even if they were made themselves which is a little different from ny who introduces everyone as soon as they're made as a friend of ours

This isn't about Chicago, but according to one informant, the Luccheses in NY had a similar "rule" many decades ago where they discouraged members from being introduced to other families, I guess unless it was absolutely necessary.

I believe they mentioned this in the recent Vario FBI documents that someone on here posted (who it was slips my mind).

[Snakes]

Fosco related a story that he heard from Willie Messino where Aiuppa was about to promote Turk Torello to capo but at the last minute, somebody remembered that he hadn't yet been "formally" made, so the ceremony was done and he was promoted. This had to have been in the early seventies after Buccieri died. Torello was the number 2 guy in that crew and it was understood that he was "made" but to stay in order with the rest of the families in the country, it was decided to have him run through the formal ceremony - whichever way Chicago did it at that particular time, before they made him the boss of a territory.

[funkster]

Was that in the comments section, or did he talk about it in one of the youtube videos?

[Pete]

Fosco related a story that he heard from Willie Messino where Aiuppa was about to promote Turk Torello to capo but at the last minute, somebody remembered that he hadn't yet been "formally" made, so the ceremony was done and he was promoted. This had to have been in the early seventies after Buccieri died. Torello was the number 2 guy in that crew and it was understood that he was "made" but to stay in order with the rest of the families in the country, it was decided to have him run through the formal ceremony - whichever way Chicago did it at that particular time, before they made him the boss of a territory.

Interesting that would certainly put to the rest the Lombardo wasn't made but was a capo argument

[Slick]

Lombardo was most definitely made and anyone who doesn't believe that is fooling themselves. There is a who's who of law enforcement, including FBI, putting Lombardo in positions only a made member could be in this article.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... -Lost-Don/

[Chicago]

My two cents is that Scott's a good guy. He did and does have inside access and was always willing to take the time to share his info on the boards. Even Outfit guys bought his "Family Secrets" book! LOL!

Now, getting back to the discussion, some of you might be interested in Joe Fosco's new interview with Mike Mags: http://americannewspost.com/josephfosco ... osco-show/

Antiliar, If you fast forward to 12.54, Fosco asks Mike Magnafichi what percentage of the Illegal street Bookmaking exists today in 2015 compared to 25 years ago in 1990. Magnafichi says PRACTICALLY NOTHING around 13:54.
This is what I stated many times in the past but of course nobody wanted to believe it.
Case Closed.

[brianwellbrock]

That case won't be closed for long Chicago wait until another Chi posters sees this and files an appeal lol.

[Pete]

My two cents is that Scott's a good guy. He did and does have inside access and was always willing to take the time to share his info on the boards. Even Outfit guys bought his "Family Secrets" book! LOL!

Now, getting back to the discussion, some of you might be interested in Joe Fosco's new interview with Mike Mags: http://americannewspost.com/josephfosco ... osco-show/

Antiliar, If you fast forward to 12.54, Fosco asks Mike Magnafichi what percentage of the Illegal street Bookmaking exists today in 2015 compared to 25 years ago in 1990. Magnafichi says PRACTICALLY NOTHING around 13:54.
This is what I stated many times in the past but of course nobody wanted to believe it.
Case Closed.

Where you been man?