DiFronzo was lucky. Or...? (+ other Outfit sh*t)

[Mason_dixon]

Chicago is so interesting a case it seems of guys getting the timing right on this things and getting out at just the right time. So much less info on these guys. Joey the clown really intreredtd me too.

[Antiliar]

This is the indictment from 2010 that lists several confidential informants, including one going back to the mid-1980s:

"Confidential Informant One is an alleged upper echelon member of the 'Outfit' and has been providing information to the government for over 25 years" states the court filing.

Confidential Informant Two is "another upper echelon Outfit associate who had been providing information to the government since 1994."

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/wls/documents/mobmoles.pdf

https://abc7chicago.com/archive/7446674/

[Lupara]

DiFronzo survived the 60s (the feds literally destroyed them), the 70s (over 100 Outfit related murders), and the 80s (the last real top admin went away) and on top of that, later his brother was involved in narcotics. So the 2000s were just a joke for him and Pete said it the best

What do you mean with the feds destroyed them in the 60s when the Outfit was still powerful in the 70 and 80s.

[JIGGS]

With the made member CI time period running concurrent with all those indictments duringthe 80s and 90s it looks like someone could have been pointing LE in the right direction. This had to be noticed by some Outfit leaders. With DiFronzo being as you describe standoffish towards some other crews, might be an indicator that he suspected a CI had to be in one of those crews

Who were the guys mobwatchers suspect the most that could have been providing info? Had to be a captain, right?

JIGGS

The news of the informants came out in around the last 10 years. The first one has been informing since the middle 80s and is made. So it looks like it would have been someone made before 1985 or so. Do not know if person is dead.But was alive around 10 years ago. The only name I've heard as a guess is John DiFronzo. That is almost entirely from the non indictment in Family Secrets and no Family Secrets 2.

What about what's his nane? The Builder? Is he completely ruled out? What if it's a guy that passed? Was Rudy Fratto ever mentioned or suspected to be an informant? Would he have even been in a position to give wide intel to the J.E. Hoovers?

JIGGS

[Snakes]

I hate to be a tease but I was told a name in confidence a couple of years ago. I gave the source my word that I would not share it but I will say that (a) he is dead and (b) he is not DiFronzo (at least not the CI he had in mind). I have no way of proving or disproving the source but I haven't heard from him in quite some time. Take it for what it's worth but even if he hadn't asked for my confidence I wouldn't have stated it as fact without further corroborating evidence.

[Frank]

With the made member CI time period running concurrent with all those indictments duringthe 80s and 90s it looks like someone could have been pointing LE in the right direction. This had to be noticed by some Outfit leaders. With DiFronzo being as you describe standoffish towards some other crews, might be an indicator that he suspected a CI had to be in one of those crews

Who were the guys mobwatchers suspect the most that could have been providing info? Had to be a captain, right?

JIGGS

The news of the informants came out in around the last 10 years. The first one has been informing since the middle 80s and is made. So it looks like it would have been someone made before 1985 or so. Do not know if person is dead.But was alive around 10 years ago. The only name I've heard as a guess is John DiFronzo. That is almost entirely from the non indictment in Family Secrets and no Family Secrets 2.

What about what's his nane? The Builder? Is he completely ruled out? What if it's a guy that passed? Was Rudy Fratto ever mentioned or suspected to be an informant? Would he have even been in a position to give wide intel to the J.E. Hoovers?

JIGGS

If I'm reading everything right Fratto is not the CI from 1985 till at least 10 years ago. Fratto was made after 1985. Joe the Builder Andriacchi would be on the list. He could be the current top boss of the Outfit. I'm not 100 per cent sure when he was made. Al Tornabene would be on that list. John Matassa is on the list, if he was made in 1983. There seems to be conflicting reports of when he was made. One thing I'm not sure off is was that CI a member back then or became a member later on.

[Frank]

If this guy was a member when he started informing, then anyone made pre 1985 and still alive around 10 years ago is on that list. If he started informing and was made later, than that is a whole different list.

[Frank]

DiFronzo survived the 60s (the feds literally destroyed them), the 70s (over 100 Outfit related murders), and the 80s (the last real top admin went away) and on top of that, later his brother was involved in narcotics. So the 2000s were just a joke for him and Pete said it the best

What do you mean with the feds destroyed them in the 60s when the Outfit was still powerful in the 70 and 80s.

I think he was saying that they had peaked in their power and money making, and really started getting hit pretty hard in the 1960s. If I remember correctly of Villians previous writings, Ricca and Accardo were complaining about LE busting their gambling operations frequently. They were questioning Capo Ross Prio about it.

[Villain]

DiFronzo survived the 60s (the feds literally destroyed them), the 70s (over 100 Outfit related murders), and the 80s (the last real top admin went away) and on top of that, later his brother was involved in narcotics. So the 2000s were just a joke for him and Pete said it the best

What do you mean with the feds destroyed them in the 60s when the Outfit was still powerful in the 70 and 80s.

By the late 1960s the Outfits illegal ops in Chicago were completely on the downfall and every one of their top guys went to jail or was about to be indicated, including Giancana, Battaglia, Alderisio, Cerone, Daddono, Pranno etc.

Their prime gambling ops around the North and South sides were closed down by the feds and even the Outfit itself closed down their ops in the Loop area out of fear from more indictments. The feds even invented the so-called lockstep program by following their target from few feet away. For example, in 1965 when they raided Humphreys' apartment, the old gangster died of a heart attack right there on the scene. Giancana himself even sued the feds for harassment and won the battle in court

As Frank already pointed out that both Ricca and Accardo showed their dissatisfaction at the time, by constantly pressuring the territlrial bosses such as Prio to take some action and place pressure over their crew bosses and soldiers to change tactics. The Outfit thought that many of their bookmakers were getting arrested because of the many loosed-lipped horse players and gamblers that knew their phone numbers. So they ordered their bookies that they should telephone their clients instead and that they should keep moving at all times. But the problem was that this new strategy didn't play well since if one mobster previously made over 50 grand a month, now they were lucky if half that much went in their pockets.

That's why I believe that during the 70s and 80s the Outfit wasn't as nearly as powerful as they were previously during the 50s and 60s. That's why they concentrated more on union racketeering, their interests in Vegas, also in Arizona and other places, and also their ops in other countries. In Chicago they concentrated more on loan sharking, car thefts, narcotics and burglaries. I also believe that the many murders which occurred during the 70s were simply result from the paranoia that was previously created by the government during the late 60s

[aleksandrored]

DiFronzo survived the 60s (the feds literally destroyed them), the 70s (over 100 Outfit related murders), and the 80s (the last real top admin went away) and on top of that, later his brother was involved in narcotics. So the 2000s were just a joke for him and Pete said it the best

What do you mean with the feds destroyed them in the 60s when the Outfit was still powerful in the 70 and 80s.

By the late 1960s the Outfits illegal ops in Chicago were completely on the downfall and every one of their top guys went to jail or was about to be indicated, including Giancana, Battaglia, Alderisio, Cerone, Daddono, Pranno etc.

Their prime gambling ops around the North and South sides were closed down by the feds and even the Outfit itself closed down their ops in the Loop area out of fear from more indictments. The feds even invented the so-called lockstep program by following their target from few feet away. For example, in 1965 when they raided Humphreys' apartment, the old gangster died of a heart attack right there on the scene. Giancana himself even sued the feds for harassment and won the battle in court

As Frank already pointed out that both Ricca and Accardo showed their dissatisfaction at the time, by constantly pressuring the territlrial bosses such as Prio to take some action and place pressure over their crew bosses and soldiers to change tactics. The Outfit thought that many of their bookmakers were getting arrested because of the many loosed-lipped horse players and gamblers that knew their phone numbers. So they ordered their bookies that they should telephone their clients instead and that they should keep moving at all times. But the problem was that this new strategy didn't play well since if one mobster previously made over 50 grand a month, now they were lucky if half that much went in their pockets.

That's why I believe that during the 70s and 80s the Outfit wasn't as nearly as powerful as they were previously during the 50s and 60s. That's why they concentrated more on union racketeering, their interests in Vegas, also in Arizona and other places, and also their ops in other countries. In Chicago they concentrated more on loan sharking, car thefts, narcotics and burglaries. I also believe that the many murders which occurred during the 70s were simply result from the paranoia that was previously created by the government during the late 60s

In the 90s did Outfit still have any power?

[Snakes]

DiFronzo survived the 60s (the feds literally destroyed them), the 70s (over 100 Outfit related murders), and the 80s (the last real top admin went away) and on top of that, later his brother was involved in narcotics. So the 2000s were just a joke for him and Pete said it the best

What do you mean with the feds destroyed them in the 60s when the Outfit was still powerful in the 70 and 80s.

By the late 1960s the Outfits illegal ops in Chicago were completely on the downfall and every one of their top guys went to jail or was about to be indicated, including Giancana, Battaglia, Alderisio, Cerone, Daddono, Pranno etc.

Their prime gambling ops around the North and South sides were closed down by the feds and even the Outfit itself closed down their ops in the Loop area out of fear from more indictments. The feds even invented the so-called lockstep program by following their target from few feet away. For example, in 1965 when they raided Humphreys' apartment, the old gangster died of a heart attack right there on the scene. Giancana himself even sued the feds for harassment and won the battle in court

As Frank already pointed out that both Ricca and Accardo showed their dissatisfaction at the time, by constantly pressuring the territlrial bosses such as Prio to take some action and place pressure over their crew bosses and soldiers to change tactics. The Outfit thought that many of their bookmakers were getting arrested because of the many loosed-lipped horse players and gamblers that knew their phone numbers. So they ordered their bookies that they should telephone their clients instead and that they should keep moving at all times. But the problem was that this new strategy didn't play well since if one mobster previously made over 50 grand a month, now they were lucky if half that much went in their pockets.

That's why I believe that during the 70s and 80s the Outfit wasn't as nearly as powerful as they were previously during the 50s and 60s. That's why they concentrated more on union racketeering, their interests in Vegas, also in Arizona and other places, and also their ops in other countries. In Chicago they concentrated more on loan sharking, car thefts, narcotics and burglaries. I also believe that the many murders which occurred during the 70s were simply result from the paranoia that was previously created by the government during the late 60s

In the 90s did Outfit still have any power?

Yes, but it waned greatly after the takedown of the Ferriola and Carlisi crews.

In my opinion, power diminished with each of the events listed below. As time went on, these blows became harder and harder to overcome:

Imprisonment of Capone (showed that Outfit figures were vulnerable to prosecution)
Hollywood extortion case (imprisoned several powerful Outfit figures; led to Nitti's suicide)
Federal prosecutions of the late 60s (as Villain mentioned above; the imprisonment/exile of Giancana and convictions of Battaglia, Cerone, et. al.)
Skimming case in the mid-eighties (eliminated the top two bosses in the Outfit)
Federal convictions of the mid-nineties (arguably the greatest blow; dismantling of Ferriola/Infelise and Carlisi crews as well as smaller convictions of Calabrese, D'Amico, etc.; out of the ten most powerful Outfit figures in 1990, only two were not dead or in prison by 1995 - DiFronzo and Andriacchi; most of the middle management of the Outfit was taken out during this time period)
Family Secrets (eliminated James Marcello, the most important Outfit figure on the streets at the time)

[SolarSolano]

I don't think the Feds had much to go on regarding DiFronzo's role in the Spilotro murder OTHER than Nick C's testimony. In regards to Marcello's role in that hit, Nick's testimony was supported by voicemails and calls Marcello had made to Mike Spilotro's house - and physical evidence they were in Marcello's car. I am of the belief Johnny DiFronzo was not a dry snitch - he simply had been retired for nearly two full decades and had plenty of money to live on.

In the mid 90s when Joe "Wing" DiFronzo was indicted for an indoor marijuana farm, he supposedly left Chicago in a hurry - not to get away from the Feds, but to get away from Sam Carlisi who ordered his death for losing the money he had loaned DiFRonzo for the operation and screwing everything up. Joe apparently stayed in Florida until his older brother John could get him a pass. I've heard rumors John DiFronzo gave the Outfit to Carlisi at that point to save his brother and stepped back - Pete stepped into his place as boss of Elmwood Park and Johnny remained in the background ever since serving as more of an advisor role than anything else. I think Chuck Goudie's infamous dinner meeting was simply a meeting of the Elmwood Park brass (no other crews were there from Cicero or anywhere else) that was more or less social in nature.

[Villain]

DiFronzo survived the 60s (the feds literally destroyed them), the 70s (over 100 Outfit related murders), and the 80s (the last real top admin went away) and on top of that, later his brother was involved in narcotics. So the 2000s were just a joke for him and Pete said it the best

What do you mean with the feds destroyed them in the 60s when the Outfit was still powerful in the 70 and 80s.

By the late 1960s the Outfits illegal ops in Chicago were completely on the downfall and every one of their top guys went to jail or was about to be indicated, including Giancana, Battaglia, Alderisio, Cerone, Daddono, Pranno etc.

Their prime gambling ops around the North and South sides were closed down by the feds and even the Outfit itself closed down their ops in the Loop area out of fear from more indictments. The feds even invented the so-called lockstep program by following their target from few feet away. For example, in 1965 when they raided Humphreys' apartment, the old gangster died of a heart attack right there on the scene. Giancana himself even sued the feds for harassment and won the battle in court

As Frank already pointed out that both Ricca and Accardo showed their dissatisfaction at the time, by constantly pressuring the territlrial bosses such as Prio to take some action and place pressure over their crew bosses and soldiers to change tactics. The Outfit thought that many of their bookmakers were getting arrested because of the many loosed-lipped horse players and gamblers that knew their phone numbers. So they ordered their bookies that they should telephone their clients instead and that they should keep moving at all times. But the problem was that this new strategy didn't play well since if one mobster previously made over 50 grand a month, now they were lucky if half that much went in their pockets.

That's why I believe that during the 70s and 80s the Outfit wasn't as nearly as powerful as they were previously during the 50s and 60s. That's why they concentrated more on union racketeering, their interests in Vegas, also in Arizona and other places, and also their ops in other countries. In Chicago they concentrated more on loan sharking, car thefts, narcotics and burglaries. I also believe that the many murders which occurred during the 70s were simply result from the paranoia that was previously created by the government during the late 60s

In the 90s did Outfit still have any power?

Yes, but it waned greatly after the takedown of the Ferriola and Carlisi crews.

In my opinion, power diminished with each of the events listed below. As time went on, these blows became harder and harder to overcome:

Imprisonment of Capone (showed that Outfit figures were vulnerable to prosecution)
Hollywood extortion case (imprisoned several powerful Outfit figures; led to Nitti's suicide)
Federal prosecutions of the late 60s (as Villain mentioned above; the imprisonment/exile of Giancana and convictions of Battaglia, Cerone, et. al.)
Skimming case in the mid-eighties (eliminated the top two bosses in the Outfit)
Federal convictions of the mid-nineties (arguably the greatest blow; dismantling of Ferriola/Infelise and Carlisi crews as well as smaller convictions of Calabrese, D'Amico, etc.; out of the ten most powerful Outfit figures in 1990, only two were not dead or in prison - DiFronzo and Andriacchi; most of the middle management of the Outfit was taken out during this time period)
Family Secrets (eliminated James Marcello, the most important Outfit figure on the streets at the time)

I completely agree with everything you just stated but also dont forget operation Graylord and later the so-called destruction of their First Ward connections with the 1990 indictments and 1993 imprisonment of Fred Roti and Pat Marcy (died before or during the trial). They lost their main protection and this was also the main reason for which some of the top fellas went semi-legit and thats why during the 90's the DiFronzo bros constantly donated cash to mayors from Elmwood Park, Melrose Park, Schiller Park and Franklin Park, in return for their garbage disposal contracts.

[Villain]

I don't think the Feds had much to go on regarding DiFronzo's role in the Spilotro murder OTHER than Nick C's testimony. In regards to Marcello's role in that hit, Nick's testimony was supported by voicemails and calls Marcello had made to Mike Spilotro's house - and physical evidence they were in Marcello's car. I am of the belief Johnny DiFronzo was not a dry snitch - he simply had been retired for nearly two full decades and had plenty of money to live on.

In the mid 90s when Joe "Wing" DiFronzo was indicted for an indoor marijuana farm, he supposedly left Chicago in a hurry - not to get away from the Feds, but to get away from Sam Carlisi who ordered his death for losing the money he had loaned DiFRonzo for the operation and screwing everything up. Joe apparently stayed in Florida until his older brother John could get him a pass. I've heard rumors John DiFronzo gave the Outfit to Carlisi at that point to save his brother and stepped back - Pete stepped into his place as boss of Elmwood Park and Johnny remained in the background ever since serving as more of an advisor role than anything else. I think Chuck Goudie's infamous dinner meeting was simply a meeting of the Elmwood Park brass (no other crews were there from Cicero or anywhere else) that was more or less social in nature.

Thanks for the info, never knew that Carlisi placed a contract on Joe and it's interesting to note that many people think that some of these fellas were clipped (except for guys like Joe) for selling dope but instead they were eliminated for screwing up the deals

[Frank]

I don't think the Feds had much to go on regarding DiFronzo's role in the Spilotro murder OTHER than Nick C's testimony. In regards to Marcello's role in that hit, Nick's testimony was supported by voicemails and calls Marcello had made to Mike Spilotro's house - and physical evidence they were in Marcello's car. I am of the belief Johnny DiFronzo was not a dry snitch - he simply had been retired for nearly two full decades and had plenty of money to live on.

In the mid 90s when Joe "Wing" DiFronzo was indicted for an indoor marijuana farm, he supposedly left Chicago in a hurry - not to get away from the Feds, but to get away from Sam Carlisi who ordered his death for losing the money he had loaned DiFRonzo for the operation and screwing everything up. Joe apparently stayed in Florida until his older brother John could get him a pass. I've heard rumors John DiFronzo gave the Outfit to Carlisi at that point to save his brother and stepped back - Pete stepped into his place as boss of Elmwood Park and Johnny remained in the background ever since serving as more of an advisor role than anything else. I think Chuck Goudie's infamous dinner meeting was simply a meeting of the Elmwood Park brass (no other crews were there from Cicero or anywhere else) that was more or less social in nature.

That's an interesting take of those years. It could explain the Nick Calabrese statement that Johnny Monteleone replaced Carlisi as boss.