Justifiable Rats.

[Confederate]

Any rat is justifiable if the family is not financially supporting the incarcerated’s wife and kids. If somebody is doing Time for the family, then their blood family should be financially taken care of.

Loyalty runs both ways. Absolutely correct.
Didn't they used to take care of a guy's family years ago (like 40 or 50 years ago) or was is strictly selective or more of myth than reality?

[gohnjotti]

Joseph Campanella was 100% justifiable.

Not really, the guys who tried to kill him had been told by the mob not to but tried anyway. He then turned rat even though the Columbo would have backed him. He was also messing with the wife of made guy, that may have been coming out and led him to rat also. Still not justified at all.

Campanella was the right-hand-man of William Cutolo, and was promised by both Cutolo and John DeRoss that if Cutolo were to be arrested, Campanella would become the acting capo of his crew, just like he was during the 1990s.
Then, Campanella is asked by DeRoss to take part in the murder of Cutolo. He refused. Then, Cutolo is murdered and DeRoss assumes control over the Cutolo crew himself. Then, in tape-recorded discussions with William Cutolo Jr. and others in Cutolo’s immediate family, DeRoss voices his concerns that Campanella may not be loyal, and might turn government witness.
After William Cutolo Jr. is taken off the streets and DeRoss is indicted, his tapes are released, including the tapes of DeRoss badmouthing and sowing dissent about Campanella. DeRoss, figuring Campanella will not be loyal anymore, orders a hit - with Alphonse Persico’s blessing - on Campanella. The hit is carried about by Vincent DeMartino and Giovanni Floridia, but Campanella survives.

That’s when Campanella first started talking to the FBI, although did not make a deal with them until his arrest the following year. Charged with various violent crimes, Campanella finally resumes talking with the FBI and cuts a deal to testify against the men accused of ordering his murder. Campanella refuses to testify against fellow Cutolo crew members, or the Russian members of his Brighton Beach crew.

To me, that sounds like a pretty good reason for flipping. Campanella testified against the men who already suspected him of being an informer, and who tried to murder him.

[JCB1977]

Yeah Chiodo I get. Maybe D'Arco. Although, we still don't actually know that D'Arco was supposed to get killed do we? I mean I believe it, but it's still just something D'Arco suspected right?

Campanella I also get. I kinda think that if your family tries to kill you it's kind of hard to judge someone for flipping at that point. But I mean really tried to kill you. Not just that the FBI tells you that there's been a contract put on your life. Kind of get the impression they would tell that to anyone back in the day. I'd say Veasey, but he started cooperating before Stanfa tried to have him killed.

I have trouble with Lonardo. One, I don't buy that he didn't know Sinito/Gallo were running a drug ring. I mean he was pretty clueless about what was going in in mob circles which has always seemed odd to me, but he wasn't that clueless. I just think he didn't want to go to jail. But also, even if he's telling the truth, if his idiot soldiers were running a drug ring and he didn't know about it that's on him. So because of that he's justified testifying against Kansas City, Milwaukee and Chicago about Argent?

I agree with you in regards to testifying against the commission members and the other families associated with the skim. He was in his mid 70’s approaching 80, chances are he didn’t want to live in a cage.

[maloots]

Tommaso Buscetta lost members of his immediate family. Is his betrayal considered justified? I would vote yes.

[bert]

Joseph Campanella was 100% justifiable.

Not really, the guys who tried to kill him had been told by the mob not to but tried anyway. He then turned rat even though the Columbo would have backed him. He was also messing with the wife of made guy, that may have been coming out and led him to rat also. Still not justified at all.

Campanella was the right-hand-man of William Cutolo, and was promised by both Cutolo and John DeRoss that if Cutolo were to be arrested, Campanella would become the acting capo of his crew, just like he was during the 1990s.
Then, Campanella is asked by DeRoss to take part in the murder of Cutolo. He refused. Then, Cutolo is murdered and DeRoss assumes control over the Cutolo crew himself. Then, in tape-recorded discussions with William Cutolo Jr. and others in Cutolo’s immediate family, DeRoss voices his concerns that Campanella may not be loyal, and might turn government witness.
After William Cutolo Jr. is taken off the streets and DeRoss is indicted, his tapes are released, including the tapes of DeRoss badmouthing and sowing dissent about Campanella. DeRoss, figuring Campanella will not be loyal anymore, orders a hit - with Alphonse Persico’s blessing - on Campanella. The hit is carried about by Vincent DeMartino and Giovanni Floridia, but Campanella survives.

That’s when Campanella first started talking to the FBI, although did not make a deal with them until his arrest the following year. Charged with various violent crimes, Campanella finally resumes talking with the FBI and cuts a deal to testify against the men accused of ordering his murder. Campanella refuses to testify against fellow Cutolo crew members, or the Russian members of his Brighton Beach crew.

To me, that sounds like a pretty good reason for flipping. Campanella testified against the men who already suspected him of being an informer, and who tried to murder him.

Someone talking bad about a guy on a tape is no excuse to rat. Campenella wanted into the life he was in, he did not have to rat, period. He choose to, like a punk. Every rat has an excuse.

[gohnjotti]

Joseph Campanella was 100% justifiable.

Not really, the guys who tried to kill him had been told by the mob not to but tried anyway. He then turned rat even though the Columbo would have backed him. He was also messing with the wife of made guy, that may have been coming out and led him to rat also. Still not justified at all.

Campanella was the right-hand-man of William Cutolo, and was promised by both Cutolo and John DeRoss that if Cutolo were to be arrested, Campanella would become the acting capo of his crew, just like he was during the 1990s.
Then, Campanella is asked by DeRoss to take part in the murder of Cutolo. He refused. Then, Cutolo is murdered and DeRoss assumes control over the Cutolo crew himself. Then, in tape-recorded discussions with William Cutolo Jr. and others in Cutolo’s immediate family, DeRoss voices his concerns that Campanella may not be loyal, and might turn government witness.
After William Cutolo Jr. is taken off the streets and DeRoss is indicted, his tapes are released, including the tapes of DeRoss badmouthing and sowing dissent about Campanella. DeRoss, figuring Campanella will not be loyal anymore, orders a hit - with Alphonse Persico’s blessing - on Campanella. The hit is carried about by Vincent DeMartino and Giovanni Floridia, but Campanella survives.

That’s when Campanella first started talking to the FBI, although did not make a deal with them until his arrest the following year. Charged with various violent crimes, Campanella finally resumes talking with the FBI and cuts a deal to testify against the men accused of ordering his murder. Campanella refuses to testify against fellow Cutolo crew members, or the Russian members of his Brighton Beach crew.

To me, that sounds like a pretty good reason for flipping. Campanella testified against the men who already suspected him of being an informer, and who tried to murder him.

Someone talking bad about a guy on a tape is no excuse to rat. Campenella wanted into the life he was in, he did not have to rat, period. He choose to, like a punk. Every rat has an excuse.

The tapes themselves are not why Campanella ratted. Campanella kept his mouth shut after the tapes were released.

[bert]

Any rat is justifiable if the family is not financially supporting the incarcerated’s wife and kids. If somebody is doing Time for the family, then their blood family should be financially taken care of.

Loyalty runs both ways. Absolutely correct.
Didn't they used to take care of a guy's family years ago (like 40 or 50 years ago) or was is strictly selective or more of myth than reality?

They still do, but it depends on the crew he is with and how much he was making. If a guy is making tons of money and goes away, he is expected to have left money for his family to live while he is gone. Help is not just financial, it is being there if a neighbor is bothering them or if a son or daughter need a job, or any problems. t One associate rated because he felt the job they got his wife for $600 a week was not enough! That's a fake reason to rat. If a crew is not helping a family, they are supposed to have someone else to go to. Plus if a guy goes away he makes arraignments for them on who to see. If a crew is decimated by guys going to prison, a captain still on the streets can't give out money to everyone. Old time guys did there time even if their families were struggling. In fact they would get shot in murder attempts and still do time if arrested.

[maxiestern11]

Any rat is justifiable if the family is not financially supporting the incarcerated’s wife and kids. If somebody is doing Time for the family, then their blood family should be financially taken care of.

Loyalty runs both ways. Absolutely correct.
Didn't they used to take care of a guy's family years ago (like 40 or 50 years ago) or was is strictly selective or more of myth than reality?

They still do, but it depends on the crew he is with and how much he was making. If a guy is making tons of money and goes away, he is expected to have left money for his family to live while he is gone. Help is not just financial, it is being there if a neighbor is bothering them or if a son or daughter need a job, or any problems. t One associate rated because he felt the job they got his wife for $600 a week was not enough! That's a fake reason to rat. If a crew is not helping a family, they are supposed to have someone else to go to. Plus if a guy goes away he makes arraignments for them on who to see. If a crew is decimated by guys going to prison, a captain still on the streets can't give out money to everyone. Old time guys did there time even if their families were struggling. In fact they would get shot in murder attempts and still do time if arrested.

That’s very true Bert.... good point m!

[Brian the brain]

I think Spilotra actually beat the case when Cullota testified against him, too.

He did beat the case, the judge said that anyone that knew all the info that Cullotta knew was just another criminal and his testimony could not be believed.

[Brian the brain]

Tommaso Buscetta lost members of his immediate family. Is his betrayal considered justified? I would vote yes.

Yeah but didn’t they kill his sons because he flipped or was it before. On another subject, anyone dealing with Gaspipe is justified for ratting, he was a paranoid psycho that was whacking out anybody that knew anything on him

[bert]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

[bert]

In the U.S. when a guy is a target to die they can go on the run and wait things out. I they were not a rat, they can reach out to other families where they have friends, or in their own family to guys they were close with to see if they can work something out. D'Arco was not even going to get killed, yet for the sake of some believing it, he could have went into hiding and waited till the dust cleared. Casso turned rat, he would have been off the hook.

[Dwalin2014]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

He had no "firepower" or allies to take revenge by that time. Testifying was the only thing he could to to harm the killers of his family; if he retired and accepted it, that would mean he didn't care about his family. If he had enough "soldiers", he would likely have tried to retaliate, but by that time almost all his allies were killed, he had no means to take revenge.

[bert]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

He had no "firepower" or allies to take revenge by that time. Testifying was the only thing he could to to harm the killers of his family; if he retired and accepted it, that would mean he didn't care about his family. If he had enough "soldiers", he would likely have tried to retaliate, but by that time almost all his allies were killed, he had no means to take revenge.

It would not mean he did not care about his family, it would mean he accosted it as were the rules he lived by up till then. No way he did not care about his family (I assume)

[Dwalin2014]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

He had no "firepower" or allies to take revenge by that time. Testifying was the only thing he could to to harm the killers of his family; if he retired and accepted it, that would mean he didn't care about his family. If he had enough "soldiers", he would likely have tried to retaliate, but by that time almost all his allies were killed, he had no means to take revenge.

It would not mean he did not care about his family, it would mean he accosted it as were the rules he lived by up till then. No way he did not care about his family (I assume)

By then, all the rules of the "old" mafia (if there really were any) in Sicily were fucked up by Riina and his gang of "terrorists" who took control over everything. Buscetta never rejected the idea of the old-fashioned "traditional" mafia, but Riina and company weren't "mafia" anymore by those standards, they broke every possible rule themselves. Buscetta broke 1 rule (informing), but they broke countless other rules of the mafia, they turned the organization into something it wasn't before. At least, that's how I understand Buscetta's reasoning.