Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

I started a thread on the Buffalo Hierarchy 1987 to present day (I don't relish searching through a 200 page thread for things later):
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4978

[Pogo The Clown]

1987: 25YAV:
Boss: Joe Todaro Sr
Underboss: Joe Todaro Jr (am I correct?)
Consigliere: Joe Pieri. (Thanks Pogo)

Correct. Also thanks to Eboli for finding that about Falzone.

What about Fino is controversial?

He was an assoicate who flipped back in 1990. So really what insight could he have on what is going on 25 years later. It would be like taking Henry Hill's words on what the Lucchese were doing in 2010. Besides he has gone back and forth on whether Buffalo is even still around.

And in 2014 the Family was reconstituted while ailing Leonard Falzone was boss. While I know nothing about the man, if he was boss since 2006 (source?) why wait until 2014 to reconstruct? Given his age, makes me wonder if external forces pushed for the Family's regeneration. And given what's come out the likely suspects are the Bonannos. But why? If Buffalo was officially defunct (in the eyes of NYC, not the FBI) then the Bonannos- in theory- would have the right to go into Buffalo's former territory.

So much we don't know.

maybe it was just protocol because some buffalo members (joe todaro and others) are still alive, maybe violi wanted to join a small family but with a high rank rather than bonanno's, or maybe the other families didn0t want the bonanno's expanded so much taking over ontario also... joe todaro lives in florida and there was a meeting of the commission over there according to violi

He could've joined the Bonannos and still become capo for them in Canada due to his father's legacy, who was de facto capo.

I agree, I strongly suspect LCN protocol was the reason if the Bonannos had a hand in resuscitating Buffalo. If the Family is recognized within the mafia universe as being there, they are prohibited from having activity in that territory without an OK. San Francisco and Scranton are evidence to that. But while that's a rule just like every other rule we've seen examples of it being broken. Fratianno while misrepresenting himself as Acting Boss went to NY and accurately made the case that Los Angeles had too many unsanctioned east coast and Chicago members there and that if someone tried that in NYC that they'd be murdered for it. But the general takeaway is its a rule, it's the reason why D'Elia was treated as The Boss of Scranton despite no existing Family there. One potential way around that rule is for a Family to be taken under its wing by another Family. We seen this with Tampa and the Gambinos and Chicago was rumored to have this arrangement with other midwestern groups. Not saying that the Bonannos took Buffalo under their wing, but so far that's the only Family in NY we have seen Buffalo linked to. Could be a coincidence or something more to that.

Rather than say there's no more functioning commission, let me say that the ruling body went dormant in 1985 unless there's a reconstituted body have regular meetings I wouldn't consider bosses being bosses occasionally working in a quid pro quo basis as a commission. But I'm sure not everyone will agree with me there which is fine.

Regarding Violi joining Buffalo instead of Bonanno, it's interesting. Perhaps one day we'll understand the backstory and circumstances a little more.

It's an interesting scenario and may explain it all.

Because the Buffalo guys are still around the Bonannos could not plant their flag in Ontario so instead they renewed their ties to Buffalo members and forge a new alliance as part of their reorganization in Canada. Montagna seems to have taken the initiative to approach the Violis in his attempt to seek allies in Ontario. To expand further upon this relationship the Bonannos may have requested Todaro (who they still recognise as boss of Buffalo) to make Violi underboss so he would have the authority to reorganize things in Southern Ontario in order to support the Bonannos' efforts in Quebec. This would be an explainable reason why the Violis were invited to the Bonanno ceremony. In effect, they may be just an extention of the Bonannos in Ontario in case the Buffalo is all but dormant.

Seems highly unlikely the Bonannos would care about that. We have seen how stronger families in NY and Chicago have moved into cities were there are still weak families like LA, New Orleans, Tampa and Kansas City. We have also seen the Luccheses move into South Jersey which is Philly's backyard. About 10 years ago the Genoveses even set up a sports book in Philly itself. If the Bonannos really wanted to set up shop in Canada I seriously doubt they would care what the few geezers left in buffalo would think.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

He was an assoicate who flipped back in 1990. So really what insight could he have on what is going on 25 years later. It would be like taking Henry Hill's words on what the Lucchese were doing in 2010. Besides he has gone back and forth on whether Buffalo is even still around.

I'll take that into account as I look into the links posted. Thank you.

It's an interesting scenario and may explain it all.

Because the Buffalo guys are still around the Bonannos could not plant their flag in Ontario so instead they renewed their ties to Buffalo members and forge a new alliance as part of their reorganization in Canada. Montagna seems to have taken the initiative to approach the Violis in his attempt to seek allies in Ontario. To expand further upon this relationship the Bonannos may have requested Todaro (who they still recognise as boss of Buffalo) to make Violi underboss so he would have the authority to reorganize things in Southern Ontario in order to support the Bonannos' efforts in Quebec. This would be an explainable reason why the Violis were invited to the Bonanno ceremony. In effect, they may be just an extention of the Bonannos in Ontario in case the Buffalo is all but dormant.

Seems highly unlikely the Bonannos would care about that. We have seen how stronger families in NY and Chicago have moved into cities were there are still weak families like LA, New Orleans, Tampa and Kansas City. We have also seen the Luccheses move into South Jersey which is Philly's backyard. About 10 years ago the Genoveses even set up a sports book in Philly itself. If the Bonannos really wanted to set up shop in Canada I seriously doubt they would care what the few geezers left in buffalo would think.


Pogo

We don't know what the Bonannos are doing up there. But they recently had a making ceremony though, John Zannocchio was meeting with Buffalo, Giuseppe Violi was weighing joining Buffalo or the Bonannos.

I don't know what the Bonannos would want with Ontario or why they could care about Buffalo, but it appears that they do. It's like wondering about D'Elia and why the Families still had him in their orbit when he had no Family behind him.

Speculating, perhaps they want local allies, somebody they can count on in that area. And if so what, since they're not doing it out of the kindness of their heart. The only thing I can think of is... drugs? What else could possibly warrant a family being resuscitated?

[CabriniGreen]

He was an assoicate who flipped back in 1990. So really what insight could he have on what is going on 25 years later. It would be like taking Henry Hill's words on what the Lucchese were doing in 2010. Besides he has gone back and forth on whether Buffalo is even still around.

I'll take that into account as I look into the links posted. Thank you.

It's an interesting scenario and may explain it all.

Because the Buffalo guys are still around the Bonannos could not plant their flag in Ontario so instead they renewed their ties to Buffalo members and forge a new alliance as part of their reorganization in Canada. Montagna seems to have taken the initiative to approach the Violis in his attempt to seek allies in Ontario. To expand further upon this relationship the Bonannos may have requested Todaro (who they still recognise as boss of Buffalo) to make Violi underboss so he would have the authority to reorganize things in Southern Ontario in order to support the Bonannos' efforts in Quebec. This would be an explainable reason why the Violis were invited to the Bonanno ceremony. In effect, they may be just an extention of the Bonannos in Ontario in case the Buffalo is all but dormant.

Seems highly unlikely the Bonannos would care about that. We have seen how stronger families in NY and Chicago have moved into cities were there are still weak families like LA, New Orleans, Tampa and Kansas City. We have also seen the Luccheses move into South Jersey which is Philly's backyard. About 10 years ago the Genoveses even set up a sports book in Philly itself. If the Bonannos really wanted to set up shop in Canada I seriously doubt they would care what the few geezers left in buffalo would think.


Pogo

We don't know what the Bonannos are doing up there. But they recently had a making ceremony though, John Zannocchio was meeting with Buffalo, Giuseppe Violi was weighing joining Buffalo or the Bonannos.

I don't know what the Bonannos would want with Ontario or why they could care about Buffalo, but it appears that they do. It's like wondering about D'Elia and why the Families still had him in their orbit when he had no Family behind him.

Speculating, perhaps they want local allies, somebody they can count on in that area. And if so what, since they're not doing it out of the kindness of their heart. The only thing I can think of is... drugs? What else could possibly warrant a family being resuscitated?

Whoa, wait...... dont start.... they will be calling you crazy and drug obsessed in a minute....

[B.]

I still wonder if there's significance to Dante Gasbarrini's death in 2014 and the promotion of Rocco Luppino and induction + promotion of Domenico Violi. When this came up before, someone found an article with a reference to Gasbarrini taking a more prominent position after Papalia's death. Gasbarrini was ancient at his time of death, but he may have been the official captain and that would explain Luppino's promotion and other changes in the Canadian faction right on the heels of Gasbarrini's death.

We also don't know who made the introductions between the Bonanno members and Domenico Violi. A Cosa Nostra member had to know both Violi, who had been recently inducted, and a group of relatively new Bonanno members visiting from NYC. This implies that the Bonannos and Buffalo-Ontario members have been in touch in recent years previous to Violi's induction and someone was able to make the introduction between newer members of both groups.

[CabriniGreen]

I still wonder if there's significance to Dante Gasbarrini's death in 2014 and the promotion of Rocco Luppino and induction + promotion of Domenico Violi. When this came up before, someone found an article with a reference to Gasbarrini taking a more prominent position after Papalia's death. Gasbarrini was ancient at his time of death, but he may have been the official captain and that would explain Luppino's promotion and other changes in the Canadian faction right on the heels of Gasbarrini's death.

We also don't know who made the introductions between the Bonanno members and Domenico Violi. A Cosa Nostra member had to know both Violi, who had been recently inducted, and a group of relatively new Bonanno members visiting from NYC. This implies that the Bonannos and Buffalo-Ontario members have been in touch in recent years previous to Violi's induction and someone was able to make the introduction between newer members of both groups.

It wasnt Morena?

[Niagarafalls]

Didn’t Desjardins cross the border and visit Buffalo during the initial turmoil in Montreal? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

[B.]

I still wonder if there's significance to Dante Gasbarrini's death in 2014 and the promotion of Rocco Luppino and induction + promotion of Domenico Violi. When this came up before, someone found an article with a reference to Gasbarrini taking a more prominent position after Papalia's death. Gasbarrini was ancient at his time of death, but he may have been the official captain and that would explain Luppino's promotion and other changes in the Canadian faction right on the heels of Gasbarrini's death.

We also don't know who made the introductions between the Bonanno members and Domenico Violi. A Cosa Nostra member had to know both Violi, who had been recently inducted, and a group of relatively new Bonanno members visiting from NYC. This implies that the Bonannos and Buffalo-Ontario members have been in touch in recent years previous to Violi's induction and someone was able to make the introduction between newer members of both groups.

It wasnt Morena?

Violi is said to have attended Morena's ceremony, meaning he had already been introduced to the other Bonanno attendees as a member by a third party.

[Frank]

I still wonder if there's significance to Dante Gasbarrini's death in 2014 and the promotion of Rocco Luppino and induction + promotion of Domenico Violi. When this came up before, someone found an article with a reference to Gasbarrini taking a more prominent position after Papalia's death. Gasbarrini was ancient at his time of death, but he may have been the official captain and that would explain Luppino's promotion and other changes in the Canadian faction right on the heels of Gasbarrini's death.

We also don't know who made the introductions between the Bonanno members and Domenico Violi. A Cosa Nostra member had to know both Violi, who had been recently inducted, and a group of relatively new Bonanno members visiting from NYC. This implies that the Bonannos and Buffalo-Ontario members have been in touch in recent years previous to Violi's induction and someone was able to make the introduction between newer members of both groups.

It wasnt Morena?

Violi is said to have attended Morena's ceremony, meaning he had already been introduced to the other Bonanno attendees as a member by a third party.

Does he have had to been previously introduced, before the ceremony, to all the Bonanno attendees. Wouldn't he have to be previously introduced to one, and introduced to the others by that one at the ceremony. Before the ceremony started.

[B.]

Doesn't make a difference, as a third party was needed either way. The third party had to know Violi and at least one of the Bonanno members, like you said.

Someone could argue that because they didn't do the traditional ceremony, maybe they also skipped formal introductions and just told each other they were made, but the Bonannos have a long history of doing verbal-only ceremonies and they still followed introduction protocol. Cantarella even talked about meeting Anthony Rotondo of the DeCav family and they both knew that the other was a Cosa Nostra member but couldn't say it, so later they had to get Tony Graziano to make the formal introduction as he was a third party who knew both of them as Cosa Nostra members. Coincidentally both Cantarella and Rotondo were originally inducted in verbal-only ceremonies in their respective families.

Re: Papalia's affiliation. Capeci identified Papalia's father Antonio as a Buffalo family soldier. I know the elder Papalia has been mentioned as an early Buffalo-Ontario figure, but I'm curious if his membership has ever been confirmed.

[Angelo Santino]

Doesn't make a difference, as a third party was needed either way. The third party had to know Violi and at least one of the Bonanno members, like you said.

Someone could argue that because they didn't do the traditional ceremony, maybe they also skipped formal introductions and just told each other they were made, but the Bonannos have a long history of doing verbal-only ceremonies and they still followed introduction protocol. Cantarella even talked about meeting Anthony Rotondo of the DeCav family and they both knew that the other was a Cosa Nostra member but couldn't say it, so later they had to get Tony Graziano to make the formal introduction as he was a third party who knew both of them as Cosa Nostra members. Coincidentally both Cantarella and Rotondo were originally inducted in verbal-only ceremonies in their respective families.

Re: Papalia's affiliation. Capeci identified Papalia's father Antonio as a Buffalo family soldier. I know the elder Papalia has been mentioned as an early Buffalo-Ontario figure, but I'm curious if his membership has ever been confirmed.

Maybe he can Ask Andy .

[stubbs]

1987: 25YAV:
Boss: Joe Todaro Sr
Underboss: Joe Todaro Jr (am I correct?)
Consigliere: Joe Pieri. (Thanks Pogo)

Correct. Also thanks to Eboli for finding that about Falzone.

What about Fino is controversial?

He was an assoicate who flipped back in 1990. So really what insight could he have on what is going on 25 years later. It would be like taking Henry Hill's words on what the Lucchese were doing in 2010. Besides he has gone back and forth on whether Buffalo is even still around.

And in 2014 the Family was reconstituted while ailing Leonard Falzone was boss. While I know nothing about the man, if he was boss since 2006 (source?) why wait until 2014 to reconstruct? Given his age, makes me wonder if external forces pushed for the Family's regeneration. And given what's come out the likely suspects are the Bonannos. But why? If Buffalo was officially defunct (in the eyes of NYC, not the FBI) then the Bonannos- in theory- would have the right to go into Buffalo's former territory.

So much we don't know.

maybe it was just protocol because some buffalo members (joe todaro and others) are still alive, maybe violi wanted to join a small family but with a high rank rather than bonanno's, or maybe the other families didn0t want the bonanno's expanded so much taking over ontario also... joe todaro lives in florida and there was a meeting of the commission over there according to violi

He could've joined the Bonannos and still become capo for them in Canada due to his father's legacy, who was de facto capo.

I agree, I strongly suspect LCN protocol was the reason if the Bonannos had a hand in resuscitating Buffalo. If the Family is recognized within the mafia universe as being there, they are prohibited from having activity in that territory without an OK. San Francisco and Scranton are evidence to that. But while that's a rule just like every other rule we've seen examples of it being broken. Fratianno while misrepresenting himself as Acting Boss went to NY and accurately made the case that Los Angeles had too many unsanctioned east coast and Chicago members there and that if someone tried that in NYC that they'd be murdered for it. But the general takeaway is its a rule, it's the reason why D'Elia was treated as The Boss of Scranton despite no existing Family there. One potential way around that rule is for a Family to be taken under its wing by another Family. We seen this with Tampa and the Gambinos and Chicago was rumored to have this arrangement with other midwestern groups. Not saying that the Bonannos took Buffalo under their wing, but so far that's the only Family in NY we have seen Buffalo linked to. Could be a coincidence or something more to that.

Rather than say there's no more functioning commission, let me say that the ruling body went dormant in 1985 unless there's a reconstituted body have regular meetings I wouldn't consider bosses being bosses occasionally working in a quid pro quo basis as a commission. But I'm sure not everyone will agree with me there which is fine.

Regarding Violi joining Buffalo instead of Bonanno, it's interesting. Perhaps one day we'll understand the backstory and circumstances a little more.

It's an interesting scenario and may explain it all.

Because the Buffalo guys are still around the Bonannos could not plant their flag in Ontario so instead they renewed their ties to Buffalo members and forge a new alliance as part of their reorganization in Canada. Montagna seems to have taken the initiative to approach the Violis in his attempt to seek allies in Ontario. To expand further upon this relationship the Bonannos may have requested Todaro (who they still recognise as boss of Buffalo) to make Violi underboss so he would have the authority to reorganize things in Southern Ontario in order to support the Bonannos' efforts in Quebec. This would be an explainable reason why the Violis were invited to the Bonanno ceremony. In effect, they may be just an extention of the Bonannos in Ontario in case the Buffalo is all but dormant.

Seems highly unlikely the Bonannos would care about that. We have seen how stronger families in NY and Chicago have moved into cities were there are still weak families like LA, New Orleans, Tampa and Kansas City. We have also seen the Luccheses move into South Jersey which is Philly's backyard. About 10 years ago the Genoveses even set up a sports book in Philly itself. If the Bonannos really wanted to set up shop in Canada I seriously doubt they would care what the few geezers left in buffalo would think.


Pogo

But you don’t know if those larger families had permission to operate. The Gambinos reached out to boss Carolla in New Orleans in the early 90s. So did that Philly solider who wanted to run some things down there in the Big Easy.

The Genovese recently had a bust involving Merlino, right? He or Ligambi could’ve easily given the Westside permission to open u shop in Philly in exchange for a cut of profits.

So, even though the Bonannos could’ve told Buffalo off, they still may have decided to work with them for the sake of protocol and diplomacy.

Especially after the fallout with the Rizzutos, I’m sure the Bonannos needed all of the allies they could get. And I’m sure disrespecting mob protocol is the last thing they wanted to be seen as doing by other families, especially as they were tryin to drum up support to take on the Rizzutos, who themselves were in violation of protocol.

[B.]

DiLeonardo's Q&A answer about meeting with Milano/LA is relevant here:

10. I'd love to know more about his dealings with Pete Milano and his general knowledge of the Los Angeles Family.

-First time I met Pete was without a proper CN introduction, when I was out in Cali, he wanted to meet me through a made guy that was with him whom I was not formally introduced to also. We were the next time he came to NY through Joe G. from the bronx, we had lunch with Milano, he expressed opening a door for them and us. Second time was a beef , Joe Isgro from Cali, a non member and Joe Armone's nephew, was told by Pete he had to pay protection to operate out there. I went out to Cali with Jack Damico, we had lunch with Pete, a captain with him and this made guy. Pete felt Cali was his and he wanted tribute, he had about 40k of Joe’s money through a business deal, I told Pete those days are over, he does not control the state, Pete paid 10k towards the money, I told Pete, Joe was proposed for membership and we were not going to be shaken down, we agreed Joe operates on his own and if they have deals they can do, fine. Joe was made, he is a great guy I was very close to Joe, later on Pete did not pay the balance, saying he was broke, I sent him some very insulting messages through his guy, this guy offered to pay it off saying he is embarrassed, I told him no thanks, it is worth the balance just insulting this bum, I then shut them out of any business dealing with Joe and us. Frank Valenti was being handled by Milano, Valenti said Pete was not treating him right, I asked how did you get with Pete, he said the commission put him with Pete being he was in Arizona. I liked Frank it made me enjoy more sending insults. I have another part to the story but may save that for a book, involve a huge female singer. Side note he knew of my grandfather and his relationship in the early days. I never asked who was my uncle godfather was that was killed, could be a Leonardo?

Pretty good example for this discussion. Milano was a boss and protocol led the Gambino NYC figures to meet with him, but the LA family's weak state and the Gambino family's strength allowed the latter to basically do as they pleased. Milano was a boss who met with Gambino leaders, but on a practical level he had little weight. He was still the boss of a family, just a weak boss / weak family.

[Frank]

Doesn't make a difference, as a third party was needed either way. The third party had to know Violi and at least one of the Bonanno members, like you said.

Someone could argue that because they didn't do the traditional ceremony, maybe they also skipped formal introductions and just told each other they were made, but the Bonannos have a long history of doing verbal-only ceremonies and they still followed introduction protocol. Cantarella even talked about meeting Anthony Rotondo of the DeCav family and they both knew that the other was a Cosa Nostra member but couldn't say it, so later they had to get Tony Graziano to make the formal introduction as he was a third party who knew both of them as Cosa Nostra members. Coincidentally both Cantarella and Rotondo were originally inducted in verbal-only ceremonies in their respective families.

Re: Papalia's affiliation. Capeci identified Papalia's father Antonio as a Buffalo family soldier. I know the elder Papalia has been mentioned as an early Buffalo-Ontario figure, but I'm curious if his membership has ever been confirmed.

Well it doesn't surprise me that Violi was intoduced to a Bonanno member before the ceremony, seeing it seems these two families have had some sort of ties in Canada for a long time. Just the fact of Violis father being a Bonanno,and also being a in-law of the Luppinos, says this isnt a new situation. Not to mention in more current times Joe Violi has his choice of being made in Buffalo or Bonanno family. It makes me wonder if the Johnny Papalia and Joe Violi situation, both kind of on the cusp of being in both families, just has the simple explanation that there is just some agreement were the two families were partners and shared, or was it a Calabrian against Sicilian thing. I'm referring to the Johnny Papalia kicking up to Rizzuto, that probably started with him kicking up to Cotroni, but had to continue after the Rizzutos took power.

[Pogo The Clown]

But you don’t know if those larger families had permission to operate. The Gambinos reached out to boss Carolla in New Orleans in the early 90s. So did that Philly solider who wanted to run some things down there in the Big Easy.

The Genovese recently had a bust involving Merlino, right? He or Ligambi could’ve easily given the Westside permission to open u shop in Philly in exchange for a cut of profits.

So, even though the Bonannos could’ve told Buffalo off, they still may have decided to work with them for the sake of protocol and diplomacy.

Especially after the fallout with the Rizzutos, I’m sure the Bonannos needed all of the allies they could get. And I’m sure disrespecting mob protocol is the last thing they wanted to be seen as doing by other families, especially as they were tryin to drum up support to take on the Rizzutos, who themselves were in violation of protocol.

In most of those cases they didn't have permission. In the others it was more of a case of the smaller family going along with the rape as resisting would only make it more painful. Either way the stronger family was going to get its way regardless if they got permission or not.


Pogo