Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[cavita]

@Wiseguy. I think I didn’t quite explain myself properly. For example, the Miami members in 2000 were named by prosecutors as being part of the Trafficante crime family criminal enterprise. AFAIK, the 2010 New Orleans case was not named by prosecutors as being part of the Marcello crime family racketeering conspiracy. That’s where the difference is.

Even if the feds wrote the Tampa crime family off in 1992, prosecutors in 2000 still had enough evidence to prove the Miami-based crew was still a Tampa crime family operation. I don’t think that was the case in NOLA in 2010, nor was it the case in Pittsburgh last February.

But what the feds heard on that pay phone stunned them -- various mob figures in Louisiana talking with their counterparts in the East about infiltrating the video poker businesses through "front organizations."

And the conversations revealed that Anthony Carolla -- who had lost out in the 40s to Marcello as boss -- was now leading the family and would be aided by Joseph "JoJo" Corrozo, described by prosecutors as a captain in the Gotti-dominated Gambino family.

"We had the advantage of being up on a wire, watching and listening day to day the mob literally re-emerging in New Orleans. It was unprecedented," Letten said.

...

In May 1994, a federal grand jury alleged that Worldwide Gaming and Louisiana Route Operators were nothing more than fronts for the Marcello and Gambino crime families, with the Genovese family also along for the ride.

https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2003/sep ... -gambling/

It's not my definition, it's my observations of the way the mob has typically worked after viewing it from it's formation to its transcendence. Scrape away the hierarchy and reduce it to its most basic foundations and it's a criminal mutual assistance group. They typically avoid venturing outside of their safe zones and rely on internal organizational connections.

Let's say a Gambino member and for some reason or another is looking to set up shop in Cleveland. More than likely, that member is going to ask other members who do they know down in Cleveland so they can use them as a point of contact. Eventually he'd be connected with Iacobacci and some arrangement would be made. He's not going to walz into CL and look at Joe Loose and say: "The Feds don't consider you viable so go fuck yourself."

So, just do I have this clear, anywhere there is still a made guy recognized by others (like D'Elia was), you consider an active family?

If so, we're essentially back to the Real Deal forum circa 2007 where there are still families in Scranton, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Kansas City, Tampa, New Orleans, Denver, and Los Angeles.

Wiseguy, so you don’t consider Kansas City as an active family In 2010? Why? If there is 9-10 made guys and a couple of dozen associates working for them, that is still a viable family. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence saying that there’s is no heirarchy? No. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence proving there is a heirarchy, no. But it’s safe to assume there could have been an active family there in 2010. If anything, all those guys charged back then have gotten out by now. In fact I k is a few of them, that are doing quite well. No clue if they got made or not, but I hardly believe they went fully legit just like that. Once a criminal in their 30’s or more, they will likely always be a criminal. Anyways, my point is, look at the musitanos. They are a small family in danger of going extinct. Most estimates have them at half a dozen made guys and a couple dozen or so associates. But they are still considered an active family are they not?

No, it's not safe to assume they were an active family in 2010. The feds hadn't considered the family active for years. That's why the bookmaking case came as a surprise. But it came and went. Just like this Buffalo stuff will.

And I'm not sure where you get your figures for KC members and associates. But just out of curiosity, LA still has about 7 members. Are they still an active family? Is Tampa still an active family with 5 members? What about Cleveland with 3 members? Can Pittsburgh get a shout out with 1 member? Anyone?

If we are to defer to the feds, then why, why, why would the feds name someone as boss of a family when there is no family left? For example William D'Elia or Gumba Saladino? Why don't the feds just say "We are indicting William D'Elia, former boss of the now-defunct Bufalino family." When the feds name someone as boss of a family that certainly implies there is a family to be a boss of. Plain and simple. What do the feds constitute as being a family? If we are going to put our faith in the FBI then we must take it for what it's worth.

Because, in those cases, prosecutors aren't going to get into the minutia of active vs defunct, as it would only confuse juries and give ammo to defense attornies. And, no, it doesn't necessarily imply they still consider the family active. The 5 NY families, New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and (arguably) Detroit are the only ones still acknowledged today.

My question is, did prosecutors name the Kansas City LCN as a criminal enterprise in the 2010 case? Did they allege that the crimes committed were in furtherance or a part of the Kansas City LCN racketeering conspiracy? If so, then you could consider the Kansas City LCN to be a viable criminal force as of 2010, in my opinion.

No, they didn't include organized crime charges or references to the LCN in the case.

So when you say prosecutors aren't going to get into the minutia of active or defunct is this what they have stated or is it your opinion? If a guy such as D'Elia is being prosecuted for an offense and it's not tied to OC, doesn't bringing up the fact he's boss of a family show bias if there's no family left?

[Stroccos]

@Wiseguy. I think I didn’t quite explain myself properly. For example, the Miami members in 2000 were named by prosecutors as being part of the Trafficante crime family criminal enterprise. AFAIK, the 2010 New Orleans case was not named by prosecutors as being part of the Marcello crime family racketeering conspiracy. That’s where the difference is.

Even if the feds wrote the Tampa crime family off in 1992, prosecutors in 2000 still had enough evidence to prove the Miami-based crew was still a Tampa crime family operation. I don’t think that was the case in NOLA in 2010, nor was it the case in Pittsburgh last February.

But what the feds heard on that pay phone stunned them -- various mob figures in Louisiana talking with their counterparts in the East about infiltrating the video poker businesses through "front organizations."

And the conversations revealed that Anthony Carolla -- who had lost out in the 40s to Marcello as boss -- was now leading the family and would be aided by Joseph "JoJo" Corrozo, described by prosecutors as a captain in the Gotti-dominated Gambino family.

"We had the advantage of being up on a wire, watching and listening day to day the mob literally re-emerging in New Orleans. It was unprecedented," Letten said.

...

In May 1994, a federal grand jury alleged that Worldwide Gaming and Louisiana Route Operators were nothing more than fronts for the Marcello and Gambino crime families, with the Genovese family also along for the ride.

https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2003/sep ... -gambling/

It's not my definition, it's my observations of the way the mob has typically worked after viewing it from it's formation to its transcendence. Scrape away the hierarchy and reduce it to its most basic foundations and it's a criminal mutual assistance group. They typically avoid venturing outside of their safe zones and rely on internal organizational connections.

Let's say a Gambino member and for some reason or another is looking to set up shop in Cleveland. More than likely, that member is going to ask other members who do they know down in Cleveland so they can use them as a point of contact. Eventually he'd be connected with Iacobacci and some arrangement would be made. He's not going to walz into CL and look at Joe Loose and say: "The Feds don't consider you viable so go fuck yourself."

So, just do I have this clear, anywhere there is still a made guy recognized by others (like D'Elia was), you consider an active family?

If so, we're essentially back to the Real Deal forum circa 2007 where there are still families in Scranton, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Kansas City, Tampa, New Orleans, Denver, and Los Angeles.

Wiseguy, so you don’t consider Kansas City as an active family In 2010? Why? If there is 9-10 made guys and a couple of dozen associates working for them, that is still a viable family. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence saying that there’s is no heirarchy? No. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence proving there is a heirarchy, no. But it’s safe to assume there could have been an active family there in 2010. If anything, all those guys charged back then have gotten out by now. In fact I k is a few of them, that are doing quite well. No clue if they got made or not, but I hardly believe they went fully legit just like that. Once a criminal in their 30’s or more, they will likely always be a criminal. Anyways, my point is, look at the musitanos. They are a small family in danger of going extinct. Most estimates have them at half a dozen made guys and a couple dozen or so associates. But they are still considered an active family are they not?

No, it's not safe to assume they were an active family in 2010. The feds hadn't considered the family active for years. That's why the bookmaking case came as a surprise. But it came and went. Just like this Buffalo stuff will.

And I'm not sure where you get your figures for KC members and associates. But just out of curiosity, LA still has about 7 members. Are they still an active family? Is Tampa still an active family with 5 members? What about Cleveland with 3 members? Can Pittsburgh get a shout out with 1 member? Anyone?

If we are to defer to the feds, then why, why, why would the feds name someone as boss of a family when there is no family left? For example William D'Elia or Gumba Saladino? Why don't the feds just say "We are indicting William D'Elia, former boss of the now-defunct Bufalino family." When the feds name someone as boss of a family that certainly implies there is a family to be a boss of. Plain and simple. What do the feds constitute as being a family? If we are going to put our faith in the FBI then we must take it for what it's worth.

Because, in those cases, prosecutors aren't going to get into the minutia of active vs defunct, as it would only confuse juries and give ammo to defense attornies. And, no, it doesn't necessarily imply they still consider the family active. The 5 NY families, New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and (arguably) Detroit are the only ones still acknowledged today.

My question is, did prosecutors name the Kansas City LCN as a criminal enterprise in the 2010 case? Did they allege that the crimes committed were in furtherance or a part of the Kansas City LCN racketeering conspiracy? If so, then you could consider the Kansas City LCN to be a viable criminal force as of 2010, in my opinion.

No, they didn't include organized crime charges or references to the LCN in the case.

So when you say prosecutors aren't going to get into the minutia of active or defunct is this what they have stated or is it your opinion? If a guy such as D'Elia is being prosecuted for an offense and it's not tied to OC, doesn't bringing up the fact he's boss of a family show bias if there's no family left?

they just indictied that made guy in chicago for union fraud and there is no mention of the outfit what so ever,

[Lupara]

Man this is quite the active thread lol

It reigns supreme and has crushed the Frank Cali gone thread. Perhaps we should thank Pogo and Wiseguy for igniting this debate. Not sure whether that was their intention but it seems to have worked out. [emoji846]

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Maybe throw a thanks to Manning too,... his presence was the catalyst....

A definite thanks to Manning! Hope to hear more of his insight.

He seems to have dissappeared though. [emoji3525]

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[Ozgoz]

185 pages and no Bob Marley reference. Disappointing.

[Pogo The Clown]

I also do not recall the FBI saying Tampa was inactive in 1992. Interesting because in 1991 the FDLE released a huge assessment of the Trafficante family-was first time Raffa was placed in as a Trafficante guy that I know.

I believe the designation was "close to writing off". So they still recognized Tampa in 1992.


Pogo

[Pogo The Clown]

Speaking of which, that the Bonannos were able to slip under the radar and be able to rebuild right under the feds' eye at a time when the mob was their main priority is an argument that can actually be used in favor of Buffalo's resurgance.

It was hardly under their noses. The Bonanno and Colombo squads were merged in 1993 and in 1996 they were split again. And during that time they were still bringing big cases against the family like the 1994 bust of Consigliere Anthony Spero and the 1995 bust of Capo Vincent Asaro. And we saw how quickly they started taking down major players again soon after they started giving them their full attention. It was just that from the late 80s-1996 there was a lot less pressure on the Bonannos relative to the other families.


We are now 5 years into this supposed Buffalo resurgence with all these allegedly new active members running around and we haven't seen a single case out of Buffalo so far.


Pogo

[Frank]

My guess is it’s a mix of both sides:

The Buffalo family was pretty weak in the early to mid 2000s, and there were maybe less than 10 made guys left. They were only involved in gambling and some smaller rackets and kicked up to Todaro, who sat back and collected envelopes while essentially being almost 100% legit, selling pizzas and occasionally meditating disputes. So, roughly the size like New Orleans in the early 90s before their casino bust or Tampa around year 2000.

But instead of Buffalo dying out through attrition like most other smaller families, massve changes happen: the Rizzutos broke away from the Bonannos, then the Rizzutos had a massive power vacuum starting around 2006 due to the Project Colisee bust, and Sal Montagna got deported to Canada while Vito Rizzuto was away.

So the Bonannos naturally wanted to reclaim their turf and get Montreal back in line. While Montreal and Quebec are under historically under the Bonanno flag, Ontario has historically been under the Buffalo flag.

So the Bonannos reached out to Todaro roughly around 2010-2014 or so and told him to beef up his family. Buffalo needed new members to strengthen their hold over Ontario, which increases the Bonannos control and hold over Quebec more powerful. This is why that Bonanno guy was in Canada and meeting with everyone, including Dom Violi.

Guys like Dom Violi gets made in 2015 to Buffalo and a lot of other guys get made too. And most of the people made by Buffalo are already heavy, like the Violis who are mafia legacy. So Buffalo was making people who were already big time earners, who just so happened not to be made formally in LNC.

But it’s the Bonannos behind the scenes in Buffalo/Ontario directing everything, telling Todaro to beef up his family. Sort of like the Binos being the power behind the DeClavacantes in Jersey.

This aligns with the Musitanos getting eliminated: They were aligned with the Rizzutos and the new players in Ontario want to take back control under the Bonanno and Buffalo flags. Hamilton is a proxy war for everything else going on across Canada.

To me it reminds me of Philly roughly 89-92: They should’ve been finished after the Scarfo busts and all of the rats like Leonetti. Or, at least devolve into a small-time street gang of punks. But somehow in the 90s Ligambi was able to rebuild everything and now the family is in a relatively good position.

So Wiseguy and Pogo aren’t wrong, there havent been busts for a long time in Buffalo because Buffalo was almost defunct, but the Bonannos pushed them to rebuild. Which is why we saw the huge Violi bust recently. The biggest question that remains is how many people are made and active in Buffalo area verses in Canada? I think it’s very telling a Canadian like Violi was made underboss.

I can see where it's definitely possible that the LCN is basically taken back what was theirs from the Rizzutos and Musitanos. I believe Capeci wrote that Mancuso was keeping on eye on what was going on in Canada a few years ago.

[Wiseguy]

I also do not recall the FBI saying Tampa was inactive in 1992. Interesting because in 1991 the FDLE released a huge assessment of the Trafficante family-was first time Raffa was placed in as a Trafficante guy that I know.

"The federal government's hit list for the Mafia once included nearly 20 cities, but officials say they are close to crossing off Cleveland; Denver; Los Angeles; New Orleans; Pittston, Pa.; Rochester, N.Y.; San Francisco; San Jose; St. Louis and Tampa. 'We still have powerful La Cosa Nostra families in New York City, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston and south Florida," said Paul Coffey, who heads the Justice Department's organized crime division. He added that no major Mafia family 'has been completely eradicated.'" (Washington Post, 1992)

Buffalo is active and majority of their activity is in Canada that is why there has been a lack of indictments. Tadaro is a very elusive boss who goes to great length to stay under the radar. There are so many things going on that us and LE have NO IDEA about. You heard it hear first from Comello aka the Qanon queer.

Sure. Mmm hmm.

So Wiseguy and Pogo aren’t wrong, there havent been busts for a long time in Buffalo because Buffalo was almost defunct, but the Bonannos pushed them to rebuild. Which is why we saw the huge Violi bust recently. The biggest question that remains is how many people are made and active in Buffalo area verses in Canada? I think it’s very telling a Canadian like Violi was made underboss.

i'm agree the bonanno's are behind this, they forced todaro to rebuild magaddino family in order to have more allies in canada to fight the rizzuto faction... according to violi 30 made members (included the ones living in the states), but of course fbi (that knows nothing about canada) said that the family is dead, so violi wiretaps have no value

It's not that Violi's comments have no value. But there is reason to be sceptical and not take them at face value. But obviously a lot of you guys have already done that and the theories are flying.

Perhaps we should thank Pogo and Wiseguy for igniting this debate. Not sure whether that was their intention but it seems to have worked out. [emoji846]

To be a voice of reason. Again.

We are now 5 years into this supposed Buffalo resurgence with all these allegedly new active members running around and we haven't seen a single case out of Buffalo so far.


Pogo

Haven't you heard, Pogo? All the activity is in Canada. Buffalo is just running things by remote. Todaro will be rolling some dough, nod to an underling, who then makes a call using a burner phone. But don't expect much there either because the laws are weak and Canadian law enforcement behind the 8 ball. Funny how that all works.

[stubbs]

So Wiseguy and Pogo aren’t wrong, there havent been busts for a long time in Buffalo because Buffalo was almost defunct, but the Bonannos pushed them to rebuild. Which is why we saw the huge Violi bust recently. The biggest question that remains is how many people are made and active in Buffalo area verses in Canada? I think it’s very telling a Canadian like Violi was made underboss.

i'm agree the bonanno's are behind this, they forced todaro to rebuild magaddino family in order to have more allies in canada to fight the rizzuto faction... according to violi 30 made members (included the ones living in the states), but of course fbi (that knows nothing about canada) said that the family is dead, so violi wiretaps have no value

Forcing is a big word. They may have requested it. But I have my doubts about this theory. The Bonannos have plenty of guys themselves and allies in Montreal. I don't see why they would need Buffalo to rebuild so they can be stronger in their own turf.

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I agree. If my theory is correct that the Bonannos pushed Todaro to rebuild the Buffalo family, especially as a means to retake control over Ontario, I agree the next question is: Why do the Bonannos need Buffalo? Why not just make members in Ontario directly?

I believe it comes down to protocol, which I think is still super important to the mafia families. If Ontario as a turf was claimed by Buffalo and not by the Bonannos, then it’s possible any made member of an American LCN family must be under their flag.

But it also gives the Bonannos more local allies without having to have total control over them. A Bonanno capo in Hamilton technically has to cross over and report back to NYC, or send a messenger. Verses if that same capo is under Buffalo, it gives him more freedom as he only has to report to Todaro right across the border. Then only Todaro has to deal with New York.

The Bonannos do have a lot of control in Montreal, but their power was/is contested by Rizzuto loyalists, so it wasn’t/isn’t absolute power. Having Buffalo/Ontario behind them strengthens their power in the region while at the same time taking power away from Rizzuto allies (Musitanos, etc).

[JCB1977]

So Wiseguy and Pogo aren’t wrong, there havent been busts for a long time in Buffalo because Buffalo was almost defunct, but the Bonannos pushed them to rebuild. Which is why we saw the huge Violi bust recently. The biggest question that remains is how many people are made and active in Buffalo area verses in Canada? I think it’s very telling a Canadian like Violi was made underboss.

i'm agree the bonanno's are behind this, they forced todaro to rebuild magaddino family in order to have more allies in canada to fight the rizzuto faction... according to violi 30 made members (included the ones living in the states), but of course fbi (that knows nothing about canada) said that the family is dead, so violi wiretaps have no value

Forcing is a big word. They may have requested it. But I have my doubts about this theory. The Bonannos have plenty of guys themselves and allies in Montreal. I don't see why they would need Buffalo to rebuild so they can be stronger in their own turf.

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I agree. If my theory is correct that the Bonannos pushed Todaro to rebuild the Buffalo family, especially as a means to retake control over Ontario, I agree the next question is: Why do the Bonannos need Buffalo? Why not just make members in Ontario directly?

I believe it comes down to protocol, which I think is still super important to the mafia families. If Ontario as a turf was claimed by Buffalo and not by the Bonannos, then it’s possible any made member of an American LCN family must be under their flag.

But it also gives the Bonannos more local allies without having to have total control over them. A Bonanno capo in Hamilton technically has to cross over and report back to NYC, or send a messenger. Verses if that same capo is under Buffalo, it gives him more freedom as he only has to report to Todaro right across the border. Then only Todaro has to deal with New York.

The Bonannos do have a lot of control in Montreal, but their power was/is contested by Rizzuto loyalists, so it wasn’t/isn’t absolute power. Having Buffalo/Ontario behind them strengthens their power in the region while at the same time taking power away from Rizzuto allies (Musitanos, etc).

There is no protocol any longer, that is evident in the last 50 major OC trials. And the Bonanno's needed Joe Todaro Jr about as much as a fat person needs ice cream. Who the fuck is Todaro Jr? He was never heavy in the grand scheme of things in OC circles. Bonanno's and their leadership over the last 10 years got enough to worry about let alone Buffalo. Gimme a break! Joe Jr isn't doing shit. Buffalo is such a small, dilapidated city that the FBI would have had something on Todaro Jr if he was as active as you make him out to be. The guy is running a multi million dollar legitimate business and his father is gone...the only say he has is how much roni should go on the pizza.

[JCB1977]

Speaking of which, that the Bonannos were able to slip under the radar and be able to rebuild right under the feds' eye at a time when the mob was their main priority is an argument that can actually be used in favor of Buffalo's resurgance.

It was hardly under their noses. The Bonanno and Colombo squads were merged in 1993 and in 1996 they were split again. And during that time they were still bringing big cases against the family like the 1994 bust of Consigliere Anthony Spero and the 1995 bust of Capo Vincent Asaro. And we saw how quickly they started taking down major players again soon after they started giving them their full attention. It was just that from the late 80s-1996 there was a lot less pressure on the Bonannos relative to the other families.


We are now 5 years into this supposed Buffalo resurgence with all these allegedly new active members running around and we haven't seen a single case out of Buffalo so far.


Pogo

You didn't get the memo Pogo!? Buffalo members are outsmarting the FBI and have gone underground

[JCB1977]

If Canada is answering to Buffalo, I'll go down on Queen Elizabeth and all of her crotch rot

[scagghiuni]

It's not that Violi's comments have no value. But there is reason to be sceptical and not take them at face value. But obviously a lot of you guys have already done that and the theories are flying.

honestly i believe more what a local canadian mobster says in the wiretaps than fbi, also violi was taliking with another made member so i doubt he could lying about this

[Moscone65]

So wait let me get this straight. The violins were caught in wiretaps saying how they answer to buffalo, got made underboss of an American family, and made reference’s to joe todaro. Whether or not todaro is the boss, it’s clear and evident that there is respect from the violi/Luppinos to the buffalo “family” still. Why would violi pull that out of his ass, it makes no sense whatsoever. Some things may have been exaggerated but clearly they are associated with buffalo. If there was nothing going on in buffalo, why would an established organized crime family in the mafia stronghold of southern Ontario be answering to them? Just answer that question.

[JCB1977]

So wait let me get this straight. The violins were caught in wiretaps saying how they answer to buffalo, got made underboss of an American family, and made reference’s to joe todaro. Whether or not todaro is the boss, it’s clear and evident that there is respect from the violi/Luppinos to the buffalo “family” still. Why would violi pull that out of his ass, it makes no sense whatsoever. Some things may have been exaggerated but clearly they are associated with buffalo. If there was nothing going on in buffalo, why would an established organized crime family in the mafia stronghold of southern Ontario be answering to them? Just answer that question.

Could be many reasons. Shifting blame or responsibility to the other side? An axe to grind? As you stated, exaggeration? It's also possible that Canadien Mobsters may have had something going on with remnants of the old Todaro family which is believable. Buffalo may have been traditionally Superior to Southern Ontario but Canada could tell Buffalo to fuck off at this point and what are they going to do?

Let me ask you this: Do you actually believe that Buffalo is growing and in doing so, that they have managed to fly under the radar for so long that not one single informant tipped off LE? In this day in age, it's next to impossible. I am not saying Buffalo is dead...I'm saying that there is no possible way that Todaro Jr has avoided LE detection meeting with Canadian mobsters for the purpose of international rackets.