Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[NickleCity]

Louis Ciminelli’s bribery/corruption case had a couple of Mafia-esque elements; didn’t he refer to bribery payments in code as “boxes of ziti,” as a reference to The Sopranos?

So, given the case details itself and Ciminelli’s background, you’d think that any real connection to the Buffalo Mafia would have been disclosed by the feds? I mean, the FBI had damning wiretaps and a cooperating witness that was an integral part of the scheme. So where is the Mafia? If the Buffalo Mafia was somehow involved in the union, why didn’t the cooperating witness testify to that, or why wasn’t there any wiretaps referring to this?

I hate playing the fence here, but there are elements on both sides of the argument that I agree. If the Buffalo Mafia is active - I believe it is - then it seems unlikely to me that they have any sway in Local 210, especially given the FBI’s recent scrutiny and investigations.

I definitely get the other sided of the argument. It is hard to make a case that Ciminelli is involved if the Feds don’t say he is. I just think Fino has been more right than wrong—-especially with new information that has come out. He has said Buffalo and Todaro have been active all along.

[gohnjotti]

Has Fino been more right than wrong? Or has he just changed his tune so much that he’s bound to be right at least sometimes? Because he was one of the people involved in the 2017 article that explicitly stated the Buffalo Mafia was dead, and he was quoted as saying words to that effect.

[B.]

So, you concede indictments are "an important part of the conversation" but you admittedly have no other criteria to add or by which to gauge the existence and activity of a family?

I guess direct statements on the issue from the FBI and other law enforcement doesn't count? Nor does a clear decline in membership, i.e. 45 members in 1989, 34 members in 1997, 23 members in 2006?

I conceded nothing. Acknowledging the importance of indictments is something I do inside and outside of this specific discussion. And outside of this discussion, I don't consider the absence of indictments to be a way of measuring the existence of a family either.

In this example, my criteria for determining the existence of a family is a recording, played in court, of a made member of the Magaddino family telling a made member of the Bonanno family that Joe Todaro was the boss, he (Violi) was the underboss, and there were 30 potential candidates, implying members. Much of the FBI's information over the years has been obtained in similar if not identical circumstances and the nature of the conversation gives it added credibility in addition to Violi being an established player in Canadian organized crime with blood ties to the Ontario and Quebec mafia groups.

I could turn this around and say, "What does 1989 or 1997 have to do with the 2010s?" in the same way you asked me what the 1970s have to do with 2010s, but I'm legitimately curious about 1989 and 1997 and feel that information from those years is important in the same way that the 1970s. I would love to know more details about the FBI's conclusions from that period. Again, everything should be part of the conversation.

Ok, forget New York. As has been pointed out, go with other families like New England, Philadelphia, or Chicago. Why has the FBI continued to acknowledge the existence of those families? And why has there continued to be significantly more cases in those places than Buffalo?

(This is where we fall back on the same excuses that people have been using about Detroit for years, i.e. the family isn't a priority, the members are more sophisticated and low key, etc.)

I have no answer to your first question and am going off more recent developments in Canada. Information is constantly changing on the mafia, even in areas we previously thought we knew and I'm willing to keep an agnostic approach based on new developments.

I always speak for myself only and I don't weigh in on Detroit. You've got to cut the "Detroit PTSD" you experienced on the Real Deal out of this conversation because it doesn't involve me.

Going with that criteria, one could argue there are still families in any city where there are two made guys that are breathing and know each other.

If they're recognized by other mafia families as boss and underboss, or boss and soldier, then sure. This was a familiar picture in smaller families around the US as they declined and I'm not arguing that a 2-man "mafia tag team" represents anything except a dying family, but note that "family" is still a part of the phrase.

The intel gathering in the 1960s was inconsistent and didn't last. And you can see from charts, reports, and other sources at the time how much the feds had yet to learn about the mob. It really wasn't until the 1980s, under Reagan, that the Justice Department and FBI finally ready to use RICO and better technology), made a sustained, nationwide investigative and prosecutorial attack against the Mafia. Not only can you see a clear difference in the quality of intel developed during the 1980s, look at how many family bosses across the nation were convicted compared to the 1960s.

You make a good point with RICO and the Reagan era contributing to convictions, though I don't necessarily agree with "quality of intel". From what I have personally seen in FBI reports up to about the mid-90s, there is plenty of low-quality information and just like in the 1960s a lot of it depends on the source and how it has been vetted. By the 1980s, the FBI had a much stronger foundation (which earlier decades contributed to) and their processes must have been tighter, but they were still using similar methods for collecting info.

The 1970s is ancient history in terms of the context of this discussion. You can't look at holes in FBI Intel from 40+ years ago and use that to question how much they know today.

It's part of the conversation. Mentioning holes in information during the 1970s was not meant to be a "slam dunk, proved Wiseguy wrong" statement, but naturally some of those holes would carry over to some degree and should be included in the discussion.

[NickleCity]

Has Fino been more right than wrong? Or has he just changed his tune so much that he’s bound to be right at least sometimes? Because he was one of the people involved in the 2017 article that explicitly stated the Buffalo Mafia was dead, and he was quoted as saying words to that effect.

That is a good question. I don’t know that he has changed his tune multiple times. I’ve laid out in another forum his consistency on the subject, and the 2017 article only make 1 time I’m aware of a contradiction. The 2107 is a kicker. I can’t help but wonder if he was misunderstood or misquoted giving the consistency I’ve referenced before. Hopefully Ill get a chance to ask him about that.

[Pogo The Clown]

Honestly what difference does it make? Fino was a non-made informant who has been out of circulation since 1990. What possible insights could he have about what is going on in 2019?


Pogo

[JCB1977]

Excellent discussion fellas. Best thread in a long time. Looking forward to obtaining more credible/supporting info from LE so we could definitively say whether Buffalo was resurgent or just misdiagnosed by LE years earlier.

[B.]

Did it come out that Vincenzo Morena was Calabrian? It has been said he was Italian-born. If he was Calabrian, I wonder if that contributed at all to his acceptance by Violi given their strong Calabresi roots. The Buffalo Ontario group clearly didn't or couldn't take issue with the Bonannos placing a made member in Ontario. The likely existence of previous Bonanno members in Ontario may have created a precedent that helped allow Morena to set up there.

It's also interesting that the current Bonannos themselves would approve the induction of a member who was going to be living in Ontario. Regardless of his informant status, the Bonanno family must have seen the advantage of having a new member there.

[gohnjotti]

Has Fino been more right than wrong? Or has he just changed his tune so much that he’s bound to be right at least sometimes? Because he was one of the people involved in the 2017 article that explicitly stated the Buffalo Mafia was dead, and he was quoted as saying words to that effect.

That is a good question. I don’t know that he has changed his tune multiple times. I’ve laid out in another forum his consistency on the subject, and the 2017 article only make 1 time I’m aware of a contradiction. The 2107 is a kicker. I can’t help but wonder if he was misunderstood or misquoted giving the consistency I’ve referenced before. Hopefully Ill get a chance to ask him about that.

I guess it’s not really an “inconsistency”, but Fino was slammed for writing a sensationalist piece on OJ Simpson’s minimal “mob ties.” It was great ammunition for defense lawyers and helped undercut Fino’s credibility.

[Wiseguy]

Also, yes, I agree with what you're saying Wiseguy. There was not a single case from 2001? (IIRC) until 2017, which shows a period of little-to-no activity. I'm on board with that. But the National Post article, which appears to cite law enforcement documents, allege that the family actually started to regroup in 2014. That means the family was disorganized and non-structural from around 2006-to-2014, which can help explain the lack of cases.

Your "rate of indictments" statement is a good argument, but it doesn't take into account the eight-year period of dormancy from 2006-2014. If we take away those eight years, then the family's rate of indictments aren't too outlandish.

There were some Buffalo cases here and there between 2000 and 2017 but they were rather minor league and sporadic. Much like what we've seen in Detroit over the same time span.

I could turn this around and say, "What does 1989 or 1997 have to do with the 2010s?" in the same way you asked me what the 1970s have to do with 2010s, but I'm legitimately curious about 1989 and 1997 and feel that information from those years is important in the same way that the 1970s. I would love to know more details about the FBI's conclusions from that period. Again, everything should be part of the conversation.

Those three time periods, taken together, show an obvious decline in membership. If it dropped from 45 to 23 members over 17 years, what are the chances this kind of a family suddenly turned it all around and made 16 guys over the next 13 years?

I know, I know. There's been a bunch of members going unnoticed by law enforcement all this time.

Excellent discussion fellas. Best thread in a long time. Looking forward to obtaining more credible/supporting info from LE so we could definitively say whether Buffalo was resurgent or just misdiagnosed by LE years earlier.

Count on it being neither.

[gohnjotti]

@Wiseguy. The possibility I’ve raised is that the Buffalo family went dormant in the mid-2000s, probably around the time the FBI released their top-heavy “all chiefs few Indians” chart in 2006, and then resurged in 2014. Your points about the National Post article are valid, but I fail to see how they would legitimately lie about what the FBI has said. Sensationalising is one thing, but you’re alleging a flat-out lie.

If the family did go dormant in around 2006, at the latest, then that left a 10-year period of no “major” cases, as you put it. Remember, there were still “minor” cases which established an organized criminal conspiracy, but you’re now looking at “major” cases as a barometer of activity. That’s a 10-year hiatus. Now, like the broken record I am, I’m going to refer to the Colombo family. It’s been 8 years since the last “major” bust, and the Colombo family is at least triple the size of the alleged Buffalo Mafia.

My point is, the lack of “major” cases is an even worse barometer of activity. Major cases require a dedicated, ambitious investigation from the FBI. Something which the Colombo family hasn’t faced for eight years, and something which the Buffalo Mafia didn’t face for 10 years, despite both the Colombo and Buffalo families having minor organized crime cases like the Butchie Bifulco bust and the Utica organized theft ring.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Those three time periods, taken together, show an obvious decline in membership. If it dropped from 45 to 23 members over 17 years, what are the chances this kind of a family suddenly turned it all around and made 16 guys over the next 13 years?

Various highly plausible scenarios have repeatedly been put forth. We're after 20 guy's in 20 years? You legitimately cant comprehend a scenario which marriages unknown members coupled with a few ceremonies, over twenty years whereby Buffalo has reached 30 members?
Youre honestly being irrational on this point.

I know, I know. There's been a bunch of members going unnoticed by law enforcement all this time.

Excellent discussion fellas. Best thread in a long time. Looking forward to obtaining more credible/supporting info from LE so we could definitively say whether Buffalo was resurgent or just misdiagnosed by LE years earlier.

Count on it being neither.

Why are you being a dick mate? Why is it impossible for you to cut the sanctimony, the condescension? Why is it impossible for you to stay on point without this tiresome, childish attitude.
Pogo has engaged this debate on point, and should be commended so. You on the other hand draw everybodies frustrations at your constant quip's, sarcasm and condescension which is the EXACT point B was, so reservedly, and politely, trying to make in withdrawing emotion from this debate, and youre the only one who wont play ball.

You know your arguments are actually respectable?
Its a shame their context in presentation isnt.

[Pogo The Clown]

Your points about the National Post article are valid, but I fail to see how they would legitimately lie about what the FBI has said. Sensationalising is one thing, but you’re alleging a flat-out lie.

It was actually me who mentioned that. I say to take it with a grain of salt because we have direct statments from the FBI and state and local LE that directly contradict those supposed LE documents that article is supposedly quoting from. Factor in the very dubious claims about Falzone the Calzone and its general sensationalism I find the entire piece highly questionable.


The 2017 article in question debunking a lot of that other articles claims.


https://buffalonews.com/2017/03/19/fbi- ... perations/

[B.]

Those three time periods, taken together, show an obvious decline in membership. If it dropped from 45 to 23 members over 17 years, what are the chances this kind of a family suddenly turned it all around and made 16 guys over the next 13 years?

I know, I know. There's been a bunch of members going unnoticed by law enforcement all this time.

Let's actually break it down:

- Is your skepticism based on what you perceive to be a limited number of associates / recruits in Buffalo family territory, meaning you believe they didn't have enough associates of Italian heritage to induct a maximum of 16 members over 13 years?

- Or do you believe the Buffalo leadership was opposed (or indifferent) to inducting new members? Whether or not this was ever the case, we know they did end up inducting new members from Ontario. Do you believe that Violi was inducted into the Magaddino family, as he says? I'm trying to figure out if Violi has any credibility with you, as that's the lynchpin of this discussion for me.

I genuinely don't follow the logic that makes inducting members at a rate of 1.2 per year over 13 years far-fetched, especially in areas with deep mafia history and a relatively big Italian-American population. Members are typically made in groups, too, so factor that in.

Was Rocco Luppino ever identified by the FBI as a member prior to the Violi case? His father was identified as a Magaddino member in some reports but I'm not sure Rocco was listed by the FBI, or if he's believed to have been one of the members made in that hypothetical 13 year period. If Rocco was already made and not identified on FBI lists, he would be a member who went unlisted until now. Or if he was made more recently like the Violis, that would mean we know who three of the recent recruits are, leaving 13 associates left who could have been in the same or other ceremonies.

Assuming that none of the remaining 13 members are "unnoticed" existing members, that would make for 1 member per year over 13 years. One or two additional unidentified / '"unnoticed" members is a possibility and even a small number like one or two men is a significant number when we're talking about what might be little more than a dozen men in a territory cut between two countries.

[Wiseguy]

@Wiseguy. The possibility I’ve raised is that the Buffalo family went dormant in the mid-2000s, probably around the time the FBI released their top-heavy “all chiefs few Indians” chart in 2006, and then resurged in 2014. Your points about the National Post article are valid, but I fail to see how they would legitimately lie about what the FBI has said. Sensationalising is one thing, but you’re alleging a flat-out lie.

If the family did go dormant in around 2006, at the latest, then that left a 10-year period of no “major” cases, as you put it. Remember, there were still “minor” cases which established an organized criminal conspiracy, but you’re now looking at “major” cases as a barometer of activity. That’s a 10-year hiatus. Now, like the broken record I am, I’m going to refer to the Colombo family. It’s been 8 years since the last “major” bust, and the Colombo family is at least triple the size of the alleged Buffalo Mafia.

My point is, the lack of “major” cases is an even worse barometer of activity. Major cases require a dedicated, ambitious investigation from the FBI. Something which the Colombo family hasn’t faced for eight years, and something which the Buffalo Mafia didn’t face for 10 years, despite both the Colombo and Buffalo families having minor organized crime cases like the Butchie Bifulco bust and the Utica organized theft ring.

First, the 2011 Colombo case included 40 people including a full administration, as well as several captains and soldiers. When was the last time we saw anything remotely resembling that in Buffalo?

Second, the Colombo consigliere was indicted in 2012. They also had several connected people charged in a labor racketeering case in 2014. A captain and a soldier charged in separate indictments in 2015. They were involved in the multi-family drug bust that got Paradiso in 2016. And there were a couple other soldiers busted in 2018.

There is really no legitimate comparison between the Colombos and Buffalo.

Various highly plausible scenarios have repeatedly been put forth. We're after 20 guy's in 20 years? You legitimately cant comprehend a scenario which marriages unknown members coupled with a few ceremonies, over twenty years whereby Buffalo has reached 30 members?
Youre honestly being irrational on this point.

I'm not interested in hypothetical scenarios, which is mainly what you guys seem to be going on. A lot of things could be. But is it probable that this family rebounded like this? No, it's not. This is clear to anyone who's watched trends, not only in Buffalo, but throughout the country.

Why are you being a dick mate? Why is it impossible for you to cut the sanctimony, the condescension? Why is it impossible for you to stay on point without this tiresome, childish attitude.
Pogo has engaged this debate on point, and should be commended so. You on the other hand draw everybodies frustrations at your constant quip's, sarcasm and condescension which is the EXACT point B was, so reservedly, and politely, trying to make in withdrawing emotion from this debate, and youre the only one who wont play ball.

You know your arguments are actually respectable?
Its a shame their context in presentation isnt.

It would be easier to do so if I didn't have a strong suspicion that some here argue for Buffalo still being around simply because they find the idea more appealing.

Let's actually break it down:

- Is your skepticism based on what you perceive to be a limited number of associates / recruits in Buffalo family territory, meaning you believe they didn't have enough associates of Italian heritage to induct a maximum of 16 members over 13 years?

- Or do you believe the Buffalo leadership was opposed (or indifferent) to inducting new members? Whether or not this was ever the case, we know they did end up inducting new members from Ontario. Do you believe that Violi was inducted into the Magaddino family, as he says? I'm trying to figure out if Violi has any credibility in your opinion, as that's the lynchpin of this discussion.

I genuinely don't follow the logic that makes inducting members at a rate of 1.2 per year over 13 years far-fetched, especially in areas with deep mafia history and a relatively big Italian-American population. Members are typically made in groups, too, so factor that in.

Was Rocco Luppino ever identified by the FBI as a member prior to the Violi case? His father was identified as a Magaddino member in some reports but I'm not sure Rocco was listed by the FBI, or if he's believed to have been one of the members made in that hypothetical 13 year period. If Rocco was already made and not identified on FBI lists, he would be a member who went unlisted. Or if he was made more recently like the Violis, that would mean we know who three of the recent recruits are, leaving 13 associates left who could have been in the same or other ceremonies.

Assuming that none of the remaining 13 members are "unnoticed" existing members, that would make for 1 member per year over 13 years. One or two additional unidentified / '"unnoticed" members is a possibility and even a small number like one or two men is a significant number when we're talking about what might be little more than a dozen men in a territory cut between two countries.

If the family didn't have the recruiting pool and/or will to make enough guys to avoid dropping from 45 to 23 members from 1989 to 2006 - which is a net loss of 1.2 members a year - where do they suddenly get the recruiting pool and/or will to do an about turn and start making that many per year? Why weren't they doing that all along? When has a family, especially outside New York, ever gone dormant for a decade (going with that scenario) and then just decide to get the band back together? I honestly don't think you guys would be as sold on all this if you realized just how unlikely it is.

As for Rocco Luppino, we have never seen a complete list of those 23 members the FBI had in 2006 so I don't know.

[Pogo The Clown]

This goes back to what I said about looking at the trends.


Chicago has pretty much withered away. NE has withered away to the point where they are now essentially a Boston organization with remnants in Providence and next to nothing in Connecticut. From all accounts Philly has started to slow down. Same with activity in Florida. We are even seeing the Luccheses and Colombos starting to downsize in terms of the number of crews they can field.


So how likely is it that a family whose membership has been shrinking and aging for 40 years, who has shown so little activity over 20 years and has been considered dormant by LE for at least 15 years is now suddenly not only replenishing its ranks (after being unable to do so in the previous decades) but enough to start growing again? And it all flying right under the nose of the FBI, NY state LE and local LE?


To put it in perspective Philly has made almost 100 new members since 1980 and they have barely been able to keep their membership in the 40s range. So really how likely is it that Buffalo has been able to keep it up in the 30s range? Isn't it far more likely Violi was simply exaggerating/boasting when he made that 30 guys remark?


Pogo