Sammy / Gotti

[bronx]

He never plead to drugs. what bikers did sam deal with? agree most guys would have flipped after hearing gotti babble about murders ,point is sam killed to stay out of prison and talked to stay out of prison..sam was always for sam.he killed his wife's brother ,the real reason only sam knows

[Stroccos]

He never plead to drugs. what bikers did sam deal with? agree most guys would have flipped after hearing gotti babble about murders ,point is sam killed to stay out of prison and talked to stay out of prison..sam was always for sam.he killed his wife's brother ,the real reason only sam knows

to bad for Gottis sake , the people peter gotti put on killing Sammy chickened out, because pete ended up in jail for life anyway , to bad gravano wasn't taken out in the process,

I meant post ratting and after he did his 5 years , when he was busted in Arizona , he dealt with bikers in arionza selling drugs. They didn't mind dealing with him even though he was a rat

[maloots]

Bronx some interesting points you raised, few questions for you:

Seeing a hypnotist for what exactly? That's usually to stop smoking or something.

I'm curious to know what Teddy heard that made him think that because obviously this had to have been before the Ravenite arrests. Do you recall the content or context. I read teddy's book along time ago but don't remember if or what he mentioned.

I do remember little about the brother in law but wasn't this very late in the game and after he already made the deal?

While in mcc you said he killed his friends who had drug problems or who he thought might rat... who is this referring to and did anyone actually get clipped on his order while in the mcc?....I'm not aware of that.

My take:
It's hard to believe he was in the life from a youngster making it all the way up to an underboss and somehow he is all of a sudden afraid of prison--- I mean come on he knows that is almost a guarantee in the life and more than at least 50% of the people he knew and dealt with had to have been convicts at some point in their lives. I'm not biting on that too quickly regardless of what teddy atlas says. I mean really what is he going to say good things about the guy after all is done?

I think Sammy felt like he was old school cosa nostra through and through, lived and operated smart and quietly like the old timers had taught him, had taken a lot of risks to put this thing together (overthrow of castellano/sicilians faction) and finally while at the pinnacle of it all he has to do life for a blowhard egomaniac moron... that is what he couldn't accept. And I'm sure he kept the people he liked and respected clear of indictments, the others he probably figured had f*cked him in one way or another or would have given time and opportunity. And finally do you think he really trusted that family to do the right thing by him and his own through a lifetime bid in the joint? I think he knew better and decided to not wait to see what he already knew to be true.

Hey 500, that's an eloquent analysis you post. Maddona mia you onea smarta boy over there.

[500YearReign]

Look fellas when sammy heard those tapes it was very clear that his clock was ticking.

Frankie Loc and Gotti were tap dancing and floating around the reasons they were going to use to justify Sammy's elimination.
That's how I see it and I'm sure that's how sammy heard it.

The important thing to note is that this conversation didn't just spontaneously erupt from the abyss --- there had to have been talk amongst soldiers through their captains up to the consigliere Frankie Loc which sparked the nettie cirelli apartment convo.

[500YearReign]

Wiseguys love to talk about their time in the can, and their most common form of advice to prospects is make yourself a shank right quick & don't hesitate to use it. That's how you do time.

[bronx]

frank was not pumping gotti up the opposite.gotti was trying to get frank to go along with dealing with sam..

[500YearReign]

Do we have a transcript of these ravenite tapes in the cirelli apartment? I remember reading an article about frankie loc not being able to get the tapes because they were destroyed in hurricane sandy or something like that. Certainly we must have transcripts, I mean at least the lawyers and prosecutors.

[gohnjotti]

Wiseguys love to talk about their time in the can, and their most common form of advice to prospects is make yourself a shank right quick & don't hesitate to use it. That's how you do time.

If you're committed to a life of crime, a few years in prison (even today) is great for your career. Even though prisons aren't wiseguy paradises like they used to be, places like Fort Dix and Danbury are teeming with wiseguys. Mobsters from three different crime families were investigated in the prison 2014 stabbing of Albie Crisci in Fairton FCI, and they had to split up all of the mobsters in Danbury in 2015 because a bunch of them from three different families got into that fight with Albanians, not to mention the fact that it was apparently too easy for Bonanno chieftains Mike Mancuso and Tony Urso to convey orders to the family.

[500YearReign]

Yesterday (figuratively) I felt differently about the life and was privileged to be very close with historical personages who represented the traditional values of this structure which is essentially an offshoot of the old Roman 10 family system. My core values and ideals were founded and nurtured under these men.

Fast forward generations --- and clearly the customs and usages of old have withered and are dying.

I also believe that there are many top-echelon informants who have been operating deep cover for just as long as Scarpa into the present.

Even more earth shattering is that there has probably been since the fifties, over 179 persons who have been in the top-echelon program. That's just an FBI program let's not sleep on other agencies of the fed and states.

In consideration of the above, I feel like it is a lose - lose lifestyle. Something that I want no part of.

When your born a winner why plan and prepare to lose?

[Cacuzza]

Tommaso Buscetta became a very disillusioned man too.

[UTC]

Joe Bonanno's definition of omerta was slightly more romantic: Never be the downfall of another man. There's an element of truth to this logic existing because members can and have spoken to law enforcement throughout the century. Never speaking about the mafia or informing on members doesn't include not divulging information on rivals or even street information to have a relationship that could come in handy later. It came out in the 60's that members were instructed never to talk to agents or something to that effect. It's on MF. But before, during and after, there have always been members who had relationships with law enforcement, that we as outsiders can look at and say, he was a dry snitch.

On one side you have the more dramatic Valachi/Gravanos, on the opposite side you have your Scarpas/Clementes, but in between is an entirely gray area of cooperation with LE. Bill Bonanno, Harry Riccobene are prime examples.

Absolutely, breaking omerta is revealing the secrets of the organization, and is very separate from getting some random person in trouble. Therefore, you can be a rat in some cases and not violate your oath.

[CatStevens9]

Didn’t gotti mention in another wire tap that if he ever went down he wanted Sammy to take over?

[Pogo The Clown]

Yeah. He gave Gravano the choice of staying on as Consigliere or being promoted to Official UnderBoss or Acting Boss if he (Gotti) were to go to prison.


Pogo

[CatStevens9]

I don’t they chickened out they had a concrete plan to kill him and were on their way to Arizona to get him when they found out he was arrested in the ecstasy ring.

He never plead to drugs. what bikers did sam deal with? agree most guys would have flipped after hearing gotti babble about murders ,point is sam killed to stay out of prison and talked to stay out of prison..sam was always for sam.he killed his wife's brother ,the real reason only sam knows

to bad for Gottis sake , the people peter gotti put on killing Sammy chickened out, because pete ended up in jail for life anyway , to bad gravano wasn't taken out in the process,

I meant post ratting and after he did his 5 years , when he was busted in Arizona , he dealt with bikers in arionza selling drugs. They didn't mind dealing with him even though he was a rat

[CatStevens9]

Yeah I think the feds may have gave him misinformation that Gotti was planning to whack him to get him to flip. I also remember in the book that he mentioned that he was having a miserable time in prison so most likely he just didn’t want to do the time

Yeah. He gave Gravano the choice of staying on as Consigliere or being promoted to Official UnderBoss or Acting Boss if he (Gotti) were to go to prison.


Pogo