Sammy / Gotti

[Angelo Santino]

Joe Bonanno's definition of omerta was slightly more romantic: Never be the downfall of another man. There's an element of truth to this logic existing because members can and have spoken to law enforcement throughout the century. Never speaking about the mafia or informing on members doesn't include not divulging information on rivals or even street information to have a relationship that could come in handy later. It came out in the 60's that members were instructed never to talk to agents or something to that effect. It's on MF. But before, during and after, there have always been members who had relationships with law enforcement, that we as outsiders can look at and say, he was a dry snitch.

On one side you have the more dramatic Valachi/Gravanos, on the opposite side you have your Scarpas/Clementes, but in between is an entirely gray area of cooperation with LE. Bill Bonanno, Harry Riccobene are prime examples.

[bert]

A lot of mafia members have been caught on tapes, the biggest being Decalvacante and Castellano. Sammy (The Rat) Gravano was on the same tapes as Gotti. Peter Savino had told and FBI agent that after meeting Grafvano, he felt Gravano would be a rat. Gravano gave up a lot of people, the just left out his crew so as not to get more info about him out there. I think he got that concession after they realized the 19 murders he told them about that he was involved in was enough. Plus Gravno was secretly seeing a psychiatrist for treatment of fear he had of going to prison.. The defense wanted to call him but were denied

[500YearReign]

Bert, where did you source the Peter Savino info from? Also the psychiatrist. Thanks

[bronx]

hello Sonny ,evidence? it made it easy for him to flip...did you know he was seeing a hypnotist before he was pinched? teddy atlas said he was talking to him at the gym and was sounding weak..he was talking to his brother inlaw about flipping together. while in mcc,he killed his friends saying they were weak, drug problems..? when guys like sam ,gas, start killing because they think everyone is or may rat..look at the damage those two did..then ratted..sam had too much money to do a life bid

[SonnyBlackstein]

hello Sonny ,evidence? it made it easy for him to flip...did you know he was seeing a hypnotist before he was pinched? teddy atlas said he was talking to him at the gym and was sounding weak..he was talking to his brother inlaw about flipping together. while in mcc,he killed his friends saying they were weak, drug problems..? when guys like sam ,gas, start killing because they think everyone is or may rat..look at the damage those two did..then ratted..sam had too much money to do a life bid

You might be right bronx, who knows. It’s all loose speculation at the end of the day.

[500YearReign]

Bronx some interesting points you raised, few questions for you:

Seeing a hypnotist for what exactly? That's usually to stop smoking or something.

I'm curious to know what Teddy heard that made him think that because obviously this had to have been before the Ravenite arrests. Do you recall the content or context. I read teddy's book along time ago but don't remember if or what he mentioned.

I do remember little about the brother in law but wasn't this very late in the game and after he already made the deal?

While in mcc you said he killed his friends who had drug problems or who he thought might rat... who is this referring to and did anyone actually get clipped on his order while in the mcc?....I'm not aware of that.

My take:
It's hard to believe he was in the life from a youngster making it all the way up to an underboss and somehow he is all of a sudden afraid of prison--- I mean come on he knows that is almost a guarantee in the life and more than at least 50% of the people he knew and dealt with had to have been convicts at some point in their lives. I'm not biting on that too quickly regardless of what teddy atlas says. I mean really what is he going to say good things about the guy after all is done?

I think Sammy felt like he was old school cosa nostra through and through, lived and operated smart and quietly like the old timers had taught him, had taken a lot of risks to put this thing together (overthrow of castellano/sicilians faction) and finally while at the pinnacle of it all he has to do life for a blowhard egomaniac moron... that is what he couldn't accept. And I'm sure he kept the people he liked and respected clear of indictments, the others he probably figured had f*cked him in one way or another or would have given time and opportunity. And finally do you think he really trusted that family to do the right thing by him and his own through a lifetime bid in the joint? I think he knew better and decided to not wait to see what he already knew to be true.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Good post.

[NYNighthawk]

If Gotti was not arrested when he was I do believe he would have been whacked by one of the other families. I was never a fan of Sammy. He just played a better chess game than John.

[bronx]

hello 500..he went to get help with the up coming pinch.i meant through the years he killed his guys not while in mcc. mcc he talked to brother inlaw about flipping together also sammy was on the lam in the 70's for a double murder ,he did not commit, he was very stand up then..things changed sam..money for one, roids another.power hungry guy. he wanted no part of a life bid..gotti said no deals..sam and frank maybe could have plead out. the G did not need sam to convict john, john convicted john et.al. he was not old school..killed his boss vs cosa rostra rules, he killed to take over guys biz. ect..he became a monster

[bronx]

my opinion.

[bert]

Bert, where did you source the Peter Savino info from? Also the psychiatrist. Thanks

Peter Savino info I saw a few times in columns that were online, and on a message board. It was leaked by someone inside LE, who I can't remember, if anyone was named as the source. It may be inaccurate, so....who knows. As for the hypnotist it was brung up. a few times, as Bronx mentioned Teddy Atlas, a boxing trainer was friends with graven and hooked him up with he doctor. Also at the trial when Gravano testified Gotti's lawyers wanted to bring it up and call the hypnotist, who had notes form sessions with Gravano. In the sessions, Gravano said he was terrified of prison, and would do anything to avoid going. Gotti ad locascio's lawyers felt that it would show Gravano was lying on the stand, the judge ruled against them and would not let them call the witness.

[bronx]

sam did not need any money from the mafia he went into program with 5 mil..and if he does not flip ,yes his family would be taken care of 100 percent.his whole crew was in the street

[bert]

There is a brief mention of the doctor/hypnotist here

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/26/nyre ... trial.html

[SILENT PARTNERZ]

A side point......

Does getting caught on a wire " red handed" so to speak, constitute a violation of omerta?

Or are you just looked at as a Chatty Patty?

It seemed in a case of say, Paolo Violi, it was seen as a violation, how about Tony Ducks, did the wire damage his standing that much in LCN?

Without the Gotti tapes, did they actually have Sammy cold?

All the bosses were caught on tapes that were used to convict them all
in the Commission Case. I don't recall Tony Ducks, Fat Tony of Tom Mix Santoro
suffering disrespect for it.

[Stroccos]

hello 500..he went to get help with the up coming pinch.i meant through the years he killed his guys not while in mcc. mcc he talked to brother inlaw about flipping together also sammy was on the lam in the 70's for a double murder ,he did not commit, he was very stand up then..things changed sam..money for one, roids another.power hungry guy. he wanted no part of a life bid..gotti said no deals..sam and frank maybe could have plead out. the G did not need sam to convict john, john convicted john et.al. he was not old school..killed his boss vs cosa rostra rules, he killed to take over guys biz. ect..he became a monster

ironically the bikers on the west coast had no problem dealing with Sammy. I think most people would of testified agaisnt gotti after hearing the tapes of him talking about murders sam committed. did Sammy testify against people in his drug case ?