Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Frank]

I think most of us knew a long time ago that none of you guys are going to change your position on this subject. Ive always said that it comes down to what your opinion of a LCN Family is.

[TommyNoto]

I think most of us knew a long time ago that none of you guys are going to change your position on this subject. Ive always said that it comes down to what your opinion of a LCN Family is.

Exactly lol

I’m not even sure what we are argueing at this point ? If now everyone thinks there is still a small functioning family in WNY, then what are we arguing?

It will be interesting if the Hamilton war is in any way tied back to Buffalo. Why would they be killing each other over nothing ? You have to think the Feds wouldn’t devote this much resources to some small time bookmakers / loan sharks .

Pure speculation on my part but I believe what Sergie is saying . A hybrid LCN / Calabrian mafia in WNY that has been expanding since 2014 time frame.

[Pogo The Clown]

It has been established. By the FBI who have an indictment and are investigating the Buffalo Family. These are your rules I'm quoting, broheim. To argue that this is all circumstantial is quite a Dan-like argument to make.

How many times do I (or others) have to repeat that we've seen several examples of residual mob activity (cases, new members inducted, etc.) after a family is defunct? How...many...times? Other than perhaps the media hype around it, how has Buffalo proven to be any different? People in this thread have incorrectly stated that "nothing was happening up until 2014" or whenever in an effort to show a contrast between then and now. That's not entirely correct. As in other places, we still saw minor, ad-hoc residual activity in Buffalo. Much of it, as the FBI stated, "loosely connected individuals committing Mafia-style crimes." I have a list going back to 2000. When we honestly consider this, there simply being an investigation or even an indictment no more automatically establishes what you guys or the media are alleging - the existence of a reestablished formally structured, active LCN family in Buffalo - than similar investigations and even indictments have elsewhere. This is not me "not debating in good faith" or trying to move the goal posts in a vain effort to save my ego. It's what I've been saying from the start.

It is like beating your head against a brick wall. As we have been saying forever there are plenty of examples where the Feds make reference to LCN or the family when they indict some member or associate years or even decades after they have declared that particular family extinct. We saw it with Kansas City, Scranton, Rochester, Cleveland and Rockford. It doesn't mean what so many here are now claiming that the Feds have suddenly changed their stance and are saying said family is still around or making some sort of a comeback.


Likewise we have seen the relatives of members or even bosses indicted long after the family was gone in places like Pittsburgh, New Orleans and even Dallas. The only difference in all of these examples was that the local media didn't have a field day with big sensationalist headlines about the "Mafia" being back.


Pogo

[Cheech]

It has been established. By the FBI who have an indictment and are investigating the Buffalo Family. These are your rules I'm quoting, broheim. To argue that this is all circumstantial is quite a Dan-like argument to make.

How many times do I (or others) have to repeat that we've seen several examples of residual mob activity (cases, new members inducted, etc.) after a family is defunct? How...many...times? Other than perhaps the media hype around it, how has Buffalo proven to be any different? People in this thread have incorrectly stated that "nothing was happening up until 2014" or whenever in an effort to show a contrast between then and now. That's not entirely correct. As in other places, we still saw minor, ad-hoc residual activity in Buffalo. Much of it, as the FBI stated, "loosely connected individuals committing Mafia-style crimes." I have a list going back to 2000. When we honestly consider this, there simply being an investigation or even an indictment no more automatically establishes what you guys or the media are alleging - the existence of a reestablished formally structured, active LCN family in Buffalo - than similar investigations and even indictments have elsewhere. This is not me "not debating in good faith" or trying to move the goal posts in a vain effort to save my ego. It's what I've been saying from the start.

It is like beating your head against a brick wall. As we have been saying forever there are plenty of examples where the Feds make reference to LCN or the family when they indict some member or associate years or even decades after they have declared that particular family extinct. We saw it with Kansas City, Scranton, Rochester, Cleveland and Rockford. It doesn't mean what so many here are now claiming that the Feds have suddenly changed their stance and are saying said family is still around or making some sort of a comeback.


Likewise we have seen the relatives of members or even bosses indicted long after the family was gone in places like Pittsburgh, New Orleans and even Dallas. The only difference in all of these examples was that the local media didn't have a field day with big sensationalist headlines about the "Mafia" being back.


Pogo

bro thats not even close to being true. thats far from the only difference. you are being overly simplistic.

the posters in this thread who lean towards a reemergence of a once possibly defunct family aren't your run of the mill average posters. would you not agree? these aren't gullible posters hoping that a loosely connected organization is real.

you and wiseguy have done this thread a disservice with the constant references of detroit and real deal circa no one cares.

[Pogo The Clown]

Sure it is. In fact it is almost exactly like the Rochester situation 20 years ago with a named Boss, drug dealing, a taped induction ceremony and contacts to the Bonannos and other families. It didn't mean that Rochester and Clevleand were still around or making some big comeback in 1999 anymore than it does Buffalo making some big comeback in 2021.



http://newsmine.org/content.php?ol=secu ... ia-man.txt

Cleveland mobster Anthony Delmonti couldn't believe what he was hearing.

In the summer of 1999, he was winding down a meeting in a hotel room with Rochester, N.Y., mob boss Tommy Marotta about laundering money and moving some cocaine. Delmonti also had a line on some contraband food stamps. They were planning some golf for later . . . then Marotta became curiously quiet.

He suggested "making" Delmonti on the spot.

Delmonti was floored. Get "straightened out" right here, right now? Marotta just stared, tightening his steel-blue eyes. He was the boss, he said. He could do whatever he wanted.

There had been discussions about officially making Delmonti a member of the Mafia. He had been a good "earner" for the Rochester arm of New York City's Bonanno family. Marotta had permission from Delmonti's Cleveland mob boss to make him. But what about the ceremony? Delmonti asked. The sponsor? Burning the holy card? The speeches in Sicilian?

Marotta waved it off. He was still on probation and not supposed to associate with any of the guys. The ceremony was unnecessary. Made guy Joe T. would be the sponsor. He explained to Delmonti what being "made" entailed, its privileges and responsibilities.

This family comes first. Even before Delmonti's own family. No other member could kill him without permission from Marotta. Delmonti would turn over all his earnings to Marotta. He would be getting a share of whatever the family was bringing in. No fooling with drugs. Delmonti was never to mess with the wives or girlfriends of any other made guys. That was sacred. No made guys would ever mess with Delmonti's wife or girlfriend.

Delmonti was in shock. Marotta was a legend. An old-school wiseguy. He did nine years on a racketeering violation in 1987 and survived two different attempts on his life in 1983. He caught eight bullets from a .22 and was still walking.

And now he was officially bringing Delmonti into the family. Emotionally, Delmonti was all over the map. He was awed and humbled. It was something he never expected to happen. It was a wiseguy's dream come true.

Marotta got up from his chair and embraced Delmonti, kissing him on both cheeks. It was done. Marotta said there would be a reception later. Told him to bring his appetite. Pressed for time, Marotta said he had another appointment and left the room.

Delmonti sat dazed for a minute. He went to unlock the door that opened to the adjoining room. He paused, savoring what had just happened. He took a breath, opening the door wide.

"That's riiiiigght!" he said to the five FBI agents who were there with the video equipment. "I'm the big boss now. You saw it."

The agents cheered and high-fived Delmonti. They jokingly kissed his ring and laughed. He was already an outstanding informant. But this was unprecedented. An FBI informant being "made" by a mob boss. And it was all on tape. It was one of the undercover coups of all time. Delmonti was pumped.

[Cheech]

lmao thats not even close to the same thing. you guys keep moving the goal posts. cabrini hit on the head. you dont debate in good faith. thinkreal hard what that means.

why do you two even come in this thread? youre derailing good research being done. you and wiseguy can start a thread and talk about all the gullible people that think loosely connected crimes are a resurgence of a once mafia clan.

[Pogo The Clown]

Yeah except for being almost exactly the same situation there are no similarities at all.


Pogo

[Cheech]

Yeah except for being almost exactly the same situation there are no similarities at all.


Pogo

I dont have time to point out all of the differences. theres so many. perhaps someone else can. the fact that you think its EXACT is scary.

let me ask you just one question. and then I wont engage with you or wiseguy in this thread again because you dont debate in good faith. saying that rochester article is the exact same thing is exactly not debating in good faith.

why did Porky leave his nice little area in staten island to go up there? why do you think?

btw, the article you mentioned references Rochester being the arm of The Bonnannos. Not the Bonannos being involved in the actual making ceremony like you have here. but you know that but like your buddy you dont debate in good faith. cause its EXACT right?

[TommyNoto]

It has been established. By the FBI who have an indictment and are investigating the Buffalo Family. These are your rules I'm quoting, broheim. To argue that this is all circumstantial is quite a Dan-like argument to make.

How many times do I (or others) have to repeat that we've seen several examples of residual mob activity (cases, new members inducted, etc.) after a family is defunct? How...many...times? Other than perhaps the media hype around it, how has Buffalo proven to be any different? People in this thread have incorrectly stated that "nothing was happening up until 2014" or whenever in an effort to show a contrast between then and now. That's not entirely correct. As in other places, we still saw minor, ad-hoc residual activity in Buffalo. Much of it, as the FBI stated, "loosely connected individuals committing Mafia-style crimes." I have a list going back to 2000. When we honestly consider this, there simply being an investigation or even an indictment no more automatically establishes what you guys or the media are alleging - the existence of a reestablished formally structured, active LCN family in Buffalo - than similar investigations and even indictments have elsewhere. This is not me "not debating in good faith" or trying to move the goal posts in a vain effort to save my ego. It's what I've been saying from the start.

It is like beating your head against a brick wall. As we have been saying forever there are plenty of examples where the Feds make reference to LCN or the family when they indict some member or associate years or even decades after they have declared that particular family extinct. We saw it with Kansas City, Scranton, Rochester, Cleveland and Rockford. It doesn't mean what so many here are now claiming that the Feds have suddenly changed their stance and are saying said family is still around or making some sort of a comeback.


Likewise we have seen the relatives of members or even bosses indicted long after the family was gone in places like Pittsburgh, New Orleans and even Dallas. The only difference in all of these examples was that the local media didn't have a field day with big sensationalist headlines about the "Mafia" being back.


Pogo

It’s not just the media saying the Buffalo mafia is back , it’s that the FBI, DOJ and Canada LE have repeatedly said so recently under oath and in court. I thought that was the gold standard.


If the Feds ever said Cle/ Pitt have IOC activity in court , went about launching multiple IOC investigations ( int’l) by their top RICO prosecutor, made multiple arrests, then yes I would consider them back on the board lol.

The Feds and Canada feel there is a functional IOC in WNY that is dangerous and needs to be reigned in. Case closed

Next shoe to drop is whether they were involved in the Hamilton war. That’s a very real possibility now , especially with Serge comments.

[Cheech]

It has been established. By the FBI who have an indictment and are investigating the Buffalo Family. These are your rules I'm quoting, broheim. To argue that this is all circumstantial is quite a Dan-like argument to make.

How many times do I (or others) have to repeat that we've seen several examples of residual mob activity (cases, new members inducted, etc.) after a family is defunct? How...many...times? Other than perhaps the media hype around it, how has Buffalo proven to be any different? People in this thread have incorrectly stated that "nothing was happening up until 2014" or whenever in an effort to show a contrast between then and now. That's not entirely correct. As in other places, we still saw minor, ad-hoc residual activity in Buffalo. Much of it, as the FBI stated, "loosely connected individuals committing Mafia-style crimes." I have a list going back to 2000. When we honestly consider this, there simply being an investigation or even an indictment no more automatically establishes what you guys or the media are alleging - the existence of a reestablished formally structured, active LCN family in Buffalo - than similar investigations and even indictments have elsewhere. This is not me "not debating in good faith" or trying to move the goal posts in a vain effort to save my ego. It's what I've been saying from the start.

It is like beating your head against a brick wall. As we have been saying forever there are plenty of examples where the Feds make reference to LCN or the family when they indict some member or associate years or even decades after they have declared that particular family extinct. We saw it with Kansas City, Scranton, Rochester, Cleveland and Rockford. It doesn't mean what so many here are now claiming that the Feds have suddenly changed their stance and are saying said family is still around or making some sort of a comeback.


Likewise we have seen the relatives of members or even bosses indicted long after the family was gone in places like Pittsburgh, New Orleans and even Dallas. The only difference in all of these examples was that the local media didn't have a field day with big sensationalist headlines about the "Mafia" being back.


Pogo

It’s not just the media saying the Buffalo mafia is back , it’s that the FBI, DOJ and Canada LE have repeatedly said so recently under oath and in court. I thought that was the gold standard.

If the Feds ever said Cle/ Pitt have IOC activity in court , went about launching multiple IOC investigations ( int’l) by their top RICO prosecutor, made multiple arrests, then yes I would consider them back on the board lol.

The Feds and Canada feel there is a functional IOC in WNY that is dangerous and needs to be reigned in. Case closed

Next shoe to drop is whether they were involved in the Hamilton war. That’s a very real possibility now , especially with Serge comments.

not if it doesn't back up there narrative. they dont debate in good faith.

[Pogo The Clown]

I dont have time to point out all of the differences. theres so many. perhaps someone else can. the fact that you think its EXACT is scary.

let me ask you just one question. and then I wont engage with you or wiseguy in this thread again because you dont debate in good faith. saying that rochester article is the exact same thing is exactly not debating in good faith.

why did Porky leave his nice little area in staten island to go up there? why do you think?

btw, the article you mentioned references Rochester being the arm of The Bonnannos. Not the Bonannos being involved in the actual making ceremony like you have here. but you know that but like your buddy you dont debate in good faith. cause its EXACT right?

You said it is different but now you don't want to list how it is different.


As for your question that has been answered about a hundred times. Billy D'Elia was meeting with members in NY and Philly. Joe Iacobacci and Russell Papalardo had ties to members in LA, Chicago, Rochester and possibly NJ and Pittsburgh. It had no bearing on the state of Bufalino or Cleveland families.


For your third point you misunderstood what I said. I never said the Bonannos were at the ceremony. I said Rochester had ties to the Bonannos which they had through Msrottas drug trafficking.

It’s not just the media saying the Buffalo mafia is back , it’s that the FBI, DOJ and Canada LE have repeatedly said so recently under oath and in court. I thought that was the gold standard.

Evidently you can't read because I just addressed this very point.


Plenty of examples where the Feds make reference to LCN or the family when they indict some member or associate years or even decades after they have declared that particular family extinct. We saw it with Kansas City, Scranton, Rochester, Cleveland and Rockford. It doesn't mean what so many here are now claiming that the Feds have suddenly changed their stance and are saying said family is still around or making some sort of a comeback.


Two examples below. Doesn't mean that the Feds suddenly believe that KC and Scranton were still around or making comebacks.

According to the filing, the FBI believes “that Vincent Pisciotta is a ‘made member’ of the Kansas City LCN and that Mark Sorrentino is a close associate of that criminal enterprise.”


"William J. D'Elia has been publicly identified as a member of La Cosa Nostra and the boss of the Bufalino Crime Family in Northeastern Pennsylvania."

[stubbs]

Hi all, watching this space for a bit to learn from you all (I am more into the Calabrian stuff over to Canada and Europe) - by the way this could be Sergi's response to the issue discussed here a few days back. https://twitter.com/annasergi/status/13 ... 51392?s=20

This is an excellent Twitter thread, thanks for sharing!

[Wiseguy]

Hi all, watching this space for a bit to learn from you all (I am more into the Calabrian stuff over to Canada and Europe) - by the way this could be Sergi's response to the issue discussed here a few days back. https://twitter.com/annasergi/status/13 ... 51392?s=20

That's gotta be due partly to the ongoing debate here. The timing can't just be a coincidence.

I think most of us knew a long time ago that none of you guys are going to change your position on this subject. Ive always said that it comes down to what your opinion of a LCN Family is.

And that's fair, I suppose. Early on, Christie made the argument it should really be about whoever the mob families themselves recognize. But the debate here arises out of the assertion the FBI has changed it's view on the state of the Buffalo family.

bro thats not even close to being true. thats far from the only difference. you are being overly simplistic.

the posters in this thread who lean towards a reemergence of a once possibly defunct family aren't your run of the mill average posters. would you not agree? these aren't gullible posters hoping that a loosely connected organization is real.

you and wiseguy have done this thread a disservice with the constant references of detroit and real deal circa no one cares.

That's just it. You're not average, run of the mill posters. You guys (well some of you) should know better. I get John Q. Public, who doesn't follow the mob, believing the media hype or being completely unaware that the government has referred to a Mafia family when there's no real family left. But what's your excuse?

lmao thats not even close to the same thing. you guys keep moving the goal posts. cabrini hit on the head. you dont debate in good faith. thinkreal hard what that means.

Actually, I'm starting to wonder if you (or Cabrini) understand what that phrase means.

you and wiseguy have done this thread a disservice with the constant references of detroit and real deal circa no one cares.

I make reference to that because it's the same thing happening all over again. And it will be the same result. Those jumping on the Buffalo is back-bandwagon now will be in the cricket choir later.

It’s not just the media saying the Buffalo mafia is back , it’s that the FBI, DOJ and Canada LE have repeatedly said so recently under oath and in court. I thought that was the gold standard.

Where have the FBI or DOJ said the Buffalo Mafia is back?

Evidently you can't read because I just addressed this very point.

Plenty of examples where the Feds make reference to LCN or the family when they indict some member or associate years or even decades after they have declared that particular family extinct. We saw it with Kansas City, Scranton, Rochester, Cleveland and Rockford. It doesn't mean what so many here are now claiming that the Feds have suddenly changed their stance and are saying said family is still around or making some sort of a comeback.

And, as we see, making reference to a family isn't the same as declaring a defunct family is back. It's only been the media that has posited the idea the Buffalo mob has reorganized and reactivated. And even they have posed it as a question more than anything. We've seen nothing from the FBI even approaching that.

[eboli]

'4/ in 2018 I wrote a report for Jane’s Intelligence Review on #mafia families in #NewYork. Among other things that article said: a) that #Buffalo defunct mafia family was alive; originally #LCN the current functioning might adapt to new times. Local Identity IS NOT business'

That's what Dr. Sergi wrote in the twitter feed shared by calabrianwatch. I find that very interesting. The way she describes it makes me think of how a company goes from private to public to inject more money by luring new investors. The Buffalo crime family's leadership might've opened their doors for other organized crime groups in the region by providing their old LCN connections. By doing so, Buffalo might've created new business opportunities that were otherwise unattainable by either group working on their own. Another aspect is the new blood they allegedly injected that likely rejuvenated a dying organization in just a few short years.

And just like a company that attracts many new investors or merges with another company, over time the way it does business adapts to the changes. If most of the key people in this new Buffalo crime family were unfamiliar with the way Cosa Nostra works until they were made, it certainly affected how they went on about their business. We're having a discussion about a criminal entity that might be less traditional Cosa Nostra and more cosmopolitan in the way it operates. If that's true, we're looking at a precedent and a completely different situation compared to that of the defunct crime families around the country. The historical and geographical prerequisites for the BCF to make this jump were there.

[Frank]

Are they making a comeback or just or actually loosing ground?