THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Villain wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:56 pm

Pete wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:27 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:04 am

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:36 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:37 am

Frank wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:39 pm Alderman Fred Roti died 1999

Was he made?

Yup, he and Marcy were both made guys

When those two were indicted, i believe it could be the most impactfull hit on the Outfit.

I agree regarding the early 90s. Alex, Marcy, Roti....the old protection was completely gone....on top of that, Carlisi, Marcello and Zizzo were also taken out of the game...it seems that the early 90s were most crucial regarding the downfall of the Outfit

The 90’s decimated the outfit. Carlisi, difronzo, marcello, damico, infelise, Delaurentis, Marino, list goes on and on

And we also must not forget the "deaths" of two crews, the North Side crew and the Chicago Heights/Indiana crew....also both Solano and Accardo died in 1992

Pete wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:27 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:04 am

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:36 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:37 am

Frank wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:39 pm Alderman Fred Roti died 1999

Was he made?

Yup, he and Marcy were both made guys

When those two were indicted, i believe it could be the most impactfull hit on the Outfit.

I agree regarding the early 90s. Alex, Marcy, Roti....the old protection was completely gone....on top of that, Carlisi, Marcello and Zizzo were also taken out of the game...it seems that the early 90s were most crucial regarding the downfall of the Outfit

The 90’s decimated the outfit. Carlisi, difronzo, marcello, damico, infelise, Delaurentis, Marino, list goes on and on

cavita wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:32 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:24 am This is the report in question: http://www.ipsn.org/characters/coia/mag ... hicago.htm

At the last estimate, there are about seventy 'made' members of the Chicago Outfit

70 is probably an overestimation based on other figures from the surrounding time periods:

A 1984 FBI report listed 46 identified made members of the Outfit.

FBI sources in 1990 were quoted with the Outfit having "around 50" made members.

The often-cited figure of 28 was provided by the FBI in 2005, after the Family Secrets verdicts.

Even if you add a ten-percent "error" increase (i.e. ones that the feds missed or overlooked), you wouldn't get much closer to 70.

Some clarification on the "46" number from above. I've since found out that it does not include names like Al Tocco, Frank DeMonte, Al Tornabene, James Marcello, Anthony Zizzo, John Matassa, or Nick and Frank Calabrese. Essentially, nobody from the 1983 making ceremony. It could also be assumed that Carlisi was not listed yet, either, as his name appears elsewhere, unredacted. A list I have from 1985 had 44 members with 5 being from Rockford. The FBI later split Rockford off, leaving an estimated 39 for Chicago but again, without the previously mentioned names (see below). Tocco, DeMonte, and a couple of other guys were later added to the list. It seems like the FBI adjusted it's requirements for members in the mid-1980s and made it much more restrictive as to what constituted a "made" member and what didn't. Additionally, there were undoubtedly made members left off due to lack of confirmation from sources due to this "readjustment" in classification. Later lists are probably much more accurate as they had more time to gather intelligence and confirm status of members. It also bears mentioning that some of the older, less active guys were left off as they either (a) did not hold a position commensurate with assuming "made" status (i.e. Aiuppa, Cerone, Lombardo, etc.) or (b) were not discussed as their relative inactivity either did not merit intelligence from active informants or led to ignorance or absence on status from informants and wiretaps. For the record, here is who the FBI had listed as confirmed members in late 1985:

Accardo, Anthony Joseph
Aiuppa, Joseph John
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
Cerone, John Peter
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
DeAngeles, Ronald Eugene
[Redacted]
DiVarco, Joseph Vincent
[Redacted]
Fecarotta, John Anthony
Ferriola, Joseph Anthony
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
Inserro, Vincent Joseph
LaPietra, Angelo
LaPietra, James
[Redacted]
Lombardo, Joseph
Marcy, Pat
Marzullo, Vito
Messino, William Joseph
[Redacted]
Ortenzi, Anthony Joseph
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
Pilotto, Alfred J.
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
Spilotro, Anthony John
Varelli, John A.
[Redacted]

I have some ideas about the redacted names but I'm still doing some research and digging.

Snakes we may have had this conversation before but I had think I requested something similar to the file you mention but it was a subfile. It took two years to get a response and it was denied. Did you ever get the names of the Rockford guys or were those redacted?

Snakes wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:24 am This is the report in question: http://www.ipsn.org/characters/coia/mag ... hicago.htm

At the last estimate, there are about seventy 'made' members of the Chicago Outfit

70 is probably an overestimation based on other figures from the surrounding time periods:

A 1984 FBI report listed 46 identified made members of the Outfit.

FBI sources in 1990 were quoted with the Outfit having "around 50" made members.

The often-cited figure of 28 was provided by the FBI in 2005, after the Family Secrets verdicts.

Even if you add a ten-percent "error" increase (i.e. ones that the feds missed or overlooked), you wouldn't get much closer to 70.

Some clarification on the "46" number from above. I've since found out that it does not include names like Al Tocco, Frank DeMonte, Al Tornabene, James Marcello, Anthony Zizzo, John Matassa, or Nick and Frank Calabrese. Essentially, nobody from the 1983 making ceremony. It could also be assumed that Carlisi was not listed yet, either, as his name appears elsewhere, unredacted. A list I have from 1985 had 44 members with 5 being from Rockford. The FBI later split Rockford off, leaving an estimated 39 for Chicago but again, without the previously mentioned names (see below). Tocco, DeMonte, and a couple of other guys were later added to the list. It seems like the FBI adjusted it's requirements for members in the mid-1980s and made it much more restrictive as to what constituted a "made" member and what didn't. Additionally, there were undoubtedly made members left off due to lack of confirmation from sources due to this "readjustment" in classification. Later lists are probably much more accurate as they had more time to gather intelligence and confirm status of members. It also bears mentioning that some of the older, less active guys were left off as they either (a) did not hold a position commensurate with assuming "made" status (i.e. Aiuppa, Cerone, Lombardo, etc.) or (b) were not discussed as their relative inactivity either did not merit intelligence from active informants or led to ignorance or absence on status from informants and wiretaps. For the record, here is who the FBI had listed as confirmed members in late 1985:

Accardo, Anthony Joseph
Aiuppa, Joseph John
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
Cerone, John Peter
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
DeAngeles, Ronald Eugene
[Redacted]
DiVarco, Joseph Vincent
[Redacted]
Fecarotta, John Anthony
Ferriola, Joseph Anthony
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
Inserro, Vincent Joseph
LaPietra, Angelo
LaPietra, James
[Redacted]
Lombardo, Joseph
Marcy, Pat
Marzullo, Vito
Messino, William Joseph
[Redacted]
Ortenzi, Anthony Joseph
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
Pilotto, Alfred J.
[Redacted]
[Redacted]
Spilotro, Anthony John
Varelli, John A.
[Redacted]

I have some ideas about the redacted names but I'm still doing some research and digging.

Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:24 am This is the report in question: http://www.ipsn.org/characters/coia/mag ... hicago.htm

At the last estimate, there are about seventy 'made' members of the Chicago Outfit

70 is probably an overestimation based on other figures from the surrounding time periods:

A 1984 FBI report listed 46 identified made members of the Outfit.

FBI sources in 1990 were quoted with the Outfit having "around 50" made members.

The often-cited figure of 28 was provided by the FBI in 2005, after the Family Secrets verdicts.

Even if you add a ten-percent "error" increase (i.e. ones that the feds missed or overlooked), you wouldn't get much closer to 70.

Villain wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:04 am

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:36 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:37 am

Frank wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:39 pm Alderman Fred Roti died 1999

Was he made?

Yup, he and Marcy were both made guys

When those two were indicted, i believe it could be the most impactfull hit on the Outfit.

I agree regarding the early 90s. Alex, Marcy, Roti....the old protection was completely gone....on top of that, Carlisi, Marcello and Zizzo were also taken out of the game...it seems that the early 90s were most crucial regarding the downfall of the Outfit

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:36 am

Villain wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:58 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:32 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm

Snakes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:05 pm

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:48 pm What about Barbera? Did nick calabrese say he was made?

No, I don't think he was.

He was Chinatown i think so maybe Nick wouldve known if Barbara was made, although the feds once labelled him as a "self-made" guy, whatever that means....

That's kind of a slang term here in America for a someone who came from nothing and became successful.

Thanks. Well he was/is obviously far from being a self-made guy lol btw whats your opinion on T Zizzo, meaning what time did he switch crews? Was it during the late 70s or when his dad Frank Zizzo died, mid 80s i think?

Sorry, haven't been on in a while so I missed this. Zizzo was working for Carlisi by at least 1980 or 1981.

Villain wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:58 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:32 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm

Snakes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:05 pm

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:48 pm What about Barbera? Did nick calabrese say he was made?

No, I don't think he was.

He was Chinatown i think so maybe Nick wouldve known if Barbara was made, although the feds once labelled him as a "self-made" guy, whatever that means....

That's kind of a slang term here in America for a someone who came from nothing and became successful.

Thanks. Well he was/is obviously far from being a self-made guy lol btw whats your opinion on T Zizzo, meaning what time did he switch crews? Was it during the late 70s or when his dad Frank Zizzo died, mid 80s i think?

Villain wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:04 am

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:36 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:37 am

Frank wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:39 pm Alderman Fred Roti died 1999

Was he made?

Yup, he and Marcy were both made guys

When those two were indicted, i believe it could be the most impactfull hit on the Outfit.

I agree regarding the early 90s. Alex, Marcy, Roti....the old protection was completely gone....on top of that, Carlisi, Marcello and Zizzo were also taken out of the game...it seems that the early 90s were most crucial regarding the downfall of the Outfit

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:36 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:37 am

Frank wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:39 pm Alderman Fred Roti died 1999

Was he made?

Yup, he and Marcy were both made guys

When those two were indicted, i believe it could be the most impactfull hit on the Outfit.

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:32 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm

Snakes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:05 pm

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:48 pm What about Barbera? Did nick calabrese say he was made?

No, I don't think he was.

He was Chinatown i think so maybe Nick wouldve known if Barbara was made, although the feds once labelled him as a "self-made" guy, whatever that means....

That's kind of a slang term here in America for a someone who came from nothing and became successful.

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm

Snakes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:05 pm

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:48 pm What about Barbera? Did nick calabrese say he was made?

No, I don't think he was.

He was Chinatown i think so maybe Nick wouldve known if Barbara was made, although the feds once labelled him as a "self-made" guy, whatever that means....

Snakes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:05 pm

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:48 pm What about Barbera? Did nick calabrese say he was made?

No, I don't think he was.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:55 am

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:37 am

Frank wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:39 pm Alderman Fred Roti died 1999

Was he made?

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:05 am Just for the record, while Family Secrets came down in 2005, it was in 2007 that the FBI (Richard Grant) said, "We have 28 made members of the Chicago Outfit roaming in the Chicagoland area. We have over 100 associates of the Chicago Outfit."

So we can add

James “Jimmy” Cozzo (2007) – Made?
Anthony "Little Tony/The Trucker" Zizzo (2006) (Killed)


Since Zizzo was only missing I don't if he was included in the estimate. So counting up all the losses a a membership of about 50 for 1997 seems accurate.


Pogo

FWIW I was once told by someone with close contacts in LE that Jimmy Boy Cozzo was not made specifically because he was of Northern Italian ancestry. I can't substantiate this, but thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone else has any further info on this.