THE BLACK HAND FORUM

This news about Semplice being close to Mannino makes me even more sure that the Bonnano's and Gambinos most likely backed the Ndranghta taking over Canada from the Rizzuto's. Because the Sicilian faction get their drugs through Canada's border

UTC wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 1:08 pmLMAO!!

LMAO!!

Phew.

That’s a load off.

While I literally can't do it for some electronic reason, I'll retract my posts on this thread.

Lupara wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 4:08 pm

Laurentian wrote:

Slumpy wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 1:59 pm

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 10:47 am Montreal, if you really look at it on the map, was only important for dope coming FROM EUROPE, and going INTO NYC. Like how is coke going to come from Montreal? That's would be the Carribean route....

This is why Chicago is SO important to the cartels, its equidistant from ALL major American cities, as well as having a huge built in clientele base.

Montreal didn't just import drugs into the US... There is an entire country west of Quebec. Coke was coming into Montreal via shipments sent by the Caruana-Cuntrera clan who had set up a cell in Venezuela to move Colombian coke to Canada. The Caribbean islands are just off the coast of Venezuela. Furthermore, Aruba, the Caribbean island closest to South America, was extremely amenable to mafia interests/money back in the 70's and 80's.

RCMP Operation code named Omerta that run until July 1998 demonstrated very well the role of Alfonso and Gerlando Caruana in importing massive shipments of cocaine to Europa

But did they import it from Montreal or straight from South America?

Straight from South America. The plot to do so was managed by Alfonso, from Toronto, with the help his brothers Gerlando and Pasquale.

Sorry, I have to get it all down before I forget, lol

I would actually argue that the Bonnanos gave tacit approval when they picked the " renegade" Rizzuto crew over their OWN crew, and acting capo, Violi. They let the Rizzutos TRAMPLE over the rules, for the sake of the drug trade.

They seemed to have finally learned their lesson, though.....

Another point I wanted to make about what John Dicke describes as the " Trans-Atlantic Syndicate".

The two best analogies I can come up with is the relationship between the Government and Wall Street.
Now, the government regulates Wall Street. BUT, we all know Wall Strret kinda does whatever it wants, for the most part.

The other is how the Caruana- Cuntreras, really operated like a mafia version of the Rothschilds...
That famous quote.." Give me control over a nations currency, and I care not who makes the laws.."
Okay, replace currency with Narcotics, and laws with Mafia rules, and you have thier whole modus operandi....

Oh, I left out, in the 80s the Bonnanos, could technically be considered, what, renegades? On the outside? What's the protocol for a family kicked off the Commision?

Like, the Genovese didnt want to " recognize" em. This didnt stop them from being a viable as a family and moving mountains of dope, right?

B.

That's a great post, you make some compelling points.... I would pose a few questions..

1. I was a little confused, do you believe Vito made the 2 non Italians?


2. You mentioned Fernandez. When he's in Sicily, how do you think he was received? As an emmisary from the Bonnano Family, or as a representative of, let's call it " an Italian criminal organization based in Montreal"?


(This goes to your point of acknowledgment, I dont think they were hesitant to deal with him because they didnt recognize Vito, more that he wasnt Italian..)

How do you think Vito, who was in the process of building a 7 billion dollar bridge, was perceived by Scicilian mafiosi? As a boss, or something less?

In fact, I mean, wouldn't it take a boss to make a move like that? You have to cut in the Cosa Nostra AND Ndrangheta.

3. I've often compared the Rizzutos to the South American drug clans. Powerful drug clans morph into powerful organizations in their own right all the time.

The Caruana- Cuntrera have more in common with the Ochoas, even so far as BOTH families owning South American ranches...

4. On the point of recognition, it speaks to the crux of the matter...

WHO would have recognized them? The Commision? It hasn't really functioned totally since the Commision case.


Or the Cupola, which was by the late 90s was run by Provenzano, who was more concerned with business..

Like Vito gets out in what 2012? How Is he recieved, in your opinion, when he meets with the New Yorkers in Toronto? You think Vito acquiesced and accepted capo with the Bonnanos. Turned over all the business to NY?
Accepted a NY representante in Montreal?

5. I actually believe Vito was "functionally" under the Caruana- Cuntrera family, and they ran the Venezuela family. I also think Vito started to rival them, at the same time Calabrian ascendancy began....to rival the SICILIAN network.

6. It's very interesting, because in John Dickes book Mafia Republic, his EXACT main point is there is essentially a narcotics syndicate that exists WITHIN the mafia. He describes it as a mafia in it's own right.

It became apparent to me that this was the authors of the Sixth family were trying to describe. The problem is they stopped at the Rizzuto organization, and didnt take it further. It's not a separate family, rather something more similar to the Corleonesi, in that it's like an alliance of Mafiosi ACROSS family lines...

So I thought it fascinating when you said that.....

Any thoughts..... great stuff here...

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 8:44 pm

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 12:47 pm Sonny, I'm not sure what you mean...

Coke doesn't come from Europe, lol? I said Montreal was important when DOPE was coming from Europe...into NY... but forget that...

Its good to see you engage in the discussion... carry on..

My apologies CabriniGreen, a misread on my behalf.

@ UTC: your argument with WG would carry more weight if you’d refrain from throwing barbs.
WG doesn’t need to throw mud to carry his point, neither should you.

Disagree. He has different ways of throwing barbs. But this fight isn't fun anymore anyway.

It's interesting that Fernandez's recorded comments about him and Desjardins being inducted members in Montreal are casually dismissed, while many people readily accept the idea that Bonanno members in Montreal would or could declare themselves independent without direct approval from the leadership, which would be as much a violation of protocol as inducting non-Italians. If the Montreal decina was willing to sever themselves from the group they were inducted into, it's not a stretch to believe they would induct non-Italians.

The important question:
If Montreal broke off and became their own separate mafia organization, who recognized the organization as its own mafia group? If the argument is that they became an "independent mafia-like criminal organization", that is a completely different argument than the idea that they became a new, distinct "mafia family". Mafia families are part of a system that requires acknowledgement as a mafia group from other mafia groups and this is how the system has always worked. We don't have enough info for me to comment one way or another, but I am definitely not comfortable with most of the popular theories that all but believe the Rizzuto/Montreal group is a distinct Cosa Nostra family of its own. Again, a Cosa Nostra family requires the direct acknowledgement of other Cosa Nostra groups regardless of how powerful they are or how much control they have over a city.

This is something that bothers me about just about every Montreal discussion -- nearly 70 years of critical knowledge of how the mafia works gets glossed over because the Rizzuto group were major powers of a large criminal network based in Montreal. It's like saying that everyone involved in the French Connection or Pizza Connection were one mafia family because there was a hierarchy of power in those criminal networks that included mafia members. Fortunately we have had countless sources who broke down exactly how those members fit together and who they were affiliated with outside of the network, but we don't have sources like that for Montreal, only armchair observers, eager journalists, and LE with a completely different approach from LE in the US and Sicily, where there is more expertise in mafia protocol not just criminal relationships.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 12:47 pm Sonny, I'm not sure what you mean...

Coke doesn't come from Europe, lol? I said Montreal was important when DOPE was coming from Europe...into NY... but forget that...

Its good to see you engage in the discussion... carry on..

My apologies CabriniGreen, a misread on my behalf.

@ UTC: your argument with WG would carry more weight if you’d refrain from throwing barbs.
WG doesn’t need to throw mud to carry his point, neither should you.

UTC wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 7:19 pm You are such a little clerk. I'll take "micro" versus zero everyday.
Your game is also to set up false straw men and knock them down, because you have to fit everyone into the same cubbyhole so you can have a one-size-fits-all response like a Teddy Ruxpin doll.
Of course I was saying the activity is bush league compared to the past. And I did not say it consisted of a few no show jobs. I said even mentioning that as evidence of extensive mob activity is absurd.
Up to speed is not the issue. I said when you "contend" based upon the same data as everyone else has, without any remote perspective, your opinion is not something anyone has to take as gospel either.
You have to set up a false dichotomy of knowledge versus anecdote to exist. You can't allow knowledge and perspective versus knowledge to exist. You don't take the truth so seriously. You take yourself too seriously. Kind of like the librarian version of Picasso.

I mentioned several cases involving different unions from 2000 to this year. These cases have involved a variety of forms of labor racketeering - extortion, sweetheart deals, bid-rigging, no show jobs, embezzlement, etc.

You obviously weren't aware of a lot of these, and don't care to know about them, because you think your "perspective" gives you all the insight you need. Call it what you want, you're just ignorant of the facts. Period. Your "perspective + knowledge" equation doesn't work if the knowledge part is severely lacking.

By the way, learn to use the edit function when you post.

You are such a little clerk. I'll take "micro" versus zero everyday.
Your game is also to set up false straw men and knock them down, because you have to fit everyone into the same cubbyhole so you can have a one-size-fits-all response like a Teddy Ruxpin doll.
Of course I was saying the activity is bush league compared to the past. And I did not say it consisted of a few no show jobs. I said even mentioning that as evidence of extensive mob activity is absurd.
Up to speed is not the issue. I said when you "contend" based upon the same data as everyone else has, without any remote perspective, your opinion is not something anyone has to take as gospel either.
You have to set up a false dichotomy of knowledge versus anecdote to exist. You can't allow knowledge and perspective versus knowledge to exist. You don't take the truth so seriously. You take yourself too seriously. Kind of like the librarian version of Picasso.