THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Who carried out the murders of Ronnie Turchi, Long John Martorano and Johnny Gongs? Several names have been implicated but nothing concrete. I'm sure in time we will get the asnwers to these.


Who were the two gunmen who tried to kill Mike Ciancaglini in 1992? Mike suspected his brother Joey Chang as one of them but who was the other?


Pogo

[quote="jimmyb"]There are a couple of things related to the "Bananas War" I would really like to know:

*We know that JB asked the Buccellatos for help during the Bananas War and Castellammare sent 12 shooters to NY. Six of the guys stayed in Brooklyn. Presumably they became part of the Bonanno org. One of the guys was Pino D'Aquanno. I'd really like to know who the other five guys were.

*The murder of Gaspare Magaddino in 1970. Gaspare took JB's side in the Bananas War. This was interesting because Gaspare and Stefano were first cousins. Gaspare was probably involved in the Cypress Gardens Massacre. As a result, it's tempting to think Stefano Magaddino and the DiGregorio faction ordered the hit. The problem is: 1970 is prob too late for retaliation. The Banana conflict was over by then. So who hit Gaspare Magaddino? The timeline is interesting, because remember there were Castellammarese (zips) active in Brooklyn. My theory is the orders came from CDG. Gaspare was the capomafia when he fled to the United States. This was a good opportunity to make sure he could never return to Sicily and resume power.[/quote]

Good questions for sure.

He could have been killed by someone close to one of the people he murdered in the US but probably not. Crazy that a Sicilian boss was in the US participating in hits. You had both Peter and Gaspare siding with their cousin JB against their other cousin. Shows how blood ties can get pushed aside.

I assume you've read the transcripts of Stefano talking to Paul Sciacca and the unidentified "Bill Loffa"? JB was no doubt an egomaniac who was high on himself, but after reading those transcripts his take on Magaddino during that time sounds spot on. Magaddino seemed to take everything Bonanno did as a personal insult and/or attempt to outdo him, even Bill Bonanno's wedding. When Magliocco confessed to the Commission that he had conspired with Joe Bonanno against Lucchese/Gambino, he supposedly also implicated Magaddino, which Magaddino denied. Seems he believed he could play games from his position up in Niagara Falls without worrying about the repercussions.

You made me think about an unanswered question I've had for a while, too... who was the real architect behind the Pizza Connection as far as the Bonannos are concerned? Does it go back to the alleged meetings in Italy with JB himself and Galante? Galante might get too much credit for heading the operations when he got out of prison. My hunch is that it was Natale Evola who was managing what would later become the Pizza Connection and that Galante just picked up where Evola left off.

There are a couple of things related to the "Bananas War" I would really like to know:

*We know that JB asked the Buccellatos for help during the Bananas War and Castellammare sent 12 shooters to NY. Six of the guys stayed in Brooklyn. Presumably they became part of the Bonanno org. One of the guys was Pino D'Aquanno. I'd really like to know who the other five guys were.

*The murder of Gaspare Magaddino in 1970. Gaspare took JB's side in the Bananas War. This was interesting because Gaspare and Stefano were first cousins. Gaspare was probably involved in the Cypress Gardens Massacre. As a result, it's tempting to think Stefano Magaddino and the DiGregorio faction ordered the hit. The problem is: 1970 is prob too late for retaliation. The Banana conflict was over by then. So who hit Gaspare Magaddino? The timeline is interesting, because remember there were Castellammarese (zips) active in Brooklyn. My theory is the orders came from CDG. Gaspare was the capomafia when he fled to the United States. This was a good opportunity to make sure he could never return to Sicily and resume power.

[quote="B."]Didn't someone find info suggesting that Vito Rizzuto wasn't made until the early 80's sometime after the 3 capos hit?[/quote]

As far as I know know, no info about that is available. I'm inclined to think that he was already made when he attended the Bono wedding. But then again the 1970s were very chaotic in Montreal and I doubt there were any making ceremonies there at the time, espcially when the books were reopened. So if any Montreal guys were inducted, they probably were in New York at the earliest in 1978.

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When you're the boss you make the rules. If that's what Aiuppa wanted then it happened. Accardo at that point probably didn't care one way or the other. I'm also sure that there was probably pressure from the other Families, esp. the Genoveses, which is close to the Outfit. Who knows? Maybe Aiuppa met with Catena or Salerno and they convinced him. I don't think we'll ever know for sure, but the fact is that multiple source report a ceremony at least from the 1980s forward.

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[quote="Chicago"]1). Why would the Outfit all of a sudden supposedly start having a few "Making Ceremonies" in the 1980's when they never had any previously???
It had always been done in the past by having a man being put in charge of something and running a sub crew.
2). Why would Al Tocco supposedly be "Made" in a Ceremony in 1983 when he already was the Boss of the Chicago Heights Crew?[/quote]


I don't know why, but for some reason I thought I read it was an Auippa move to bring the more traditional making ceremony into the outfit.

I get that Meyer Lansky was an elite business advisor to Luciano, but not sure de facto consigliere really describes him. The idea of consigliere has gotten distorted through pop culture but really it's a position designed to handle internal organization matters and "Tom Hagen" is mostly myth.

That makes sense about Costello having it before he became boss. For as famous as Costello is and the length of time he was a player, it's surprising we don't know more about what he did within Cosa Nostra. Or maybe we do? Any idea if he was a captain before becoming part of the admin? A story that's been told is that Luciano, Genovese, and Costello all came up together, possibly even being in the same crew, but like a lot of stories about those three it seems more unlikely to me now.

As for the Montreal questions... based on what Violi said, it sounds like Cotroni got permission from NYC to induct members and then made guys in Canada. Some wiretaps from the 60's indicate that Joe Bonanno was allowing members to be made there after the books were closed which was one of the many complaints people had. I'd be willing to believe that Sciascia was made in NY by Galante and maybe some of the other guys who were rising in the 70's and 80's. Didn't someone find info suggesting that Vito Rizzuto wasn't made until the early 80's sometime after the 3 capos hit?

Not suprisingly I have questions on Montreal:

* Was Nick Rizzuto originally inducted into the Sicilian Mafia or the Bonanno family?
* Where members of the Montreal crew inducted in Montreal or New York and when did these ceremonies take place?
* Who pulled the trigger on Violi and who pulled the trigger on Nick Rizzuto?
* Was it really Gerlando Sciascia who replaced Vic Cotroni as caporegime of the Montreal crew? If so, when did he replace Cotroni and why him instead of Nick Rizzuto?
* What was the exact relationship between the Montreal organization and the Bonanno family after the murder of Gerlando Sciascia and what is their relationship today?

Questions on the Mafia in general:

* Who killed Bugsy Siegel?
* Who ordered the murder of Joe Colombo?
* What was exactly discussed at the 1957 meetings in Palermo and Apalachin?
* Are there any surviving pictures of Salvatore D'Aquila and Salvatore Maranzano?

[quote="B."]Despite what all of the books and movies say, Lucky Luciano didn't create anything. The only thing he arguably may have had a hand in was the Commission, but there was something very similar in place before that and they just tweaked it and gave the chairman less power. The positions, structure, traditions, and everything else about Cosa Nostra existed before Luciano was alive.

What's funny about him being credited with creating the consigliere position is that we don't know who his consigliere even was... which I guess is another one of those unanswered questions I'd like to know.[/quote]

Meyer Lansky was his de facto consigliere, officially it might have been Frank Costello, which makes sense for obvious reasons.

[quote="B."]What's funny about him being credited with creating the consigliere position is that we don't know who his consigliere even was... which I guess is another one of those unanswered questions I'd like to know.[/quote]


According to Bill Bonannos latest book it was Frank Costello. Since he got that from his old man it is probably accurate. The big mystery is who was Frank Costellos Consiglieri.


Pogo

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Despite what all of the books and movies say, Lucky Luciano didn't create anything. The only thing he arguably may have had a hand in was the Commission, but there was something very similar in place before that and they just tweaked it and gave the chairman less power. The positions, structure, traditions, and everything else about Cosa Nostra existed before Luciano was alive.

What's funny about him being credited with creating the consigliere position is that we don't know who his consigliere even was... which I guess is another one of those unanswered questions I'd like to know.

Yeah I've heard the buffalo theory aswel pogo , prob a mixture of both . I've been after the book the hammer conspiracies for years but it's mega expensive