THE BLACK HAND FORUM

[quote=Dwalin2014 post_id=61441 time=1510603891 user_id=122]
Villain, since the St.Valentine day massacre was mentioned in the earlier posts, in your opinion did Bob Carey actually kill himself after killing his girlfriend or is the theory about Moran killing him as revenge for the 1929 massacre, more plausible? There is a book about Moran by Rose Keefe which mentions the interview with a former North Side bootlegger, E.Barnett, who says Moran told him that he "had gone to the coast (without mentioning which coast) to take care of a guy named Bob Carey"; Barnett didn't ask for details since he didn't know back then who Carey was, but later, after hearing Carey was identified as a likely participant in the St.Valentine day massacre, so theoretically it made sense for Moran to kill him.
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By "coast" he probably meant the east coast, since Carey was running away from the Outfit and fled to NY after hearing the news regarding the murder of his buddy Ray Nugent. I'm not saying that its not possible but for Moran to go by himself all the way to NY, find Carey and kill him and his wife in such a professional way that everyone in the end would think its a murder and a suicide...I highly doubt. Who knows, maybe Moran had the ability or skills but this kind of stuff smells more like the Mafia, especially in NY. Even if Moran had done it, he must've been backed up by someone from the Mafia. But as I previously said that I highly doubt since some of Moran's alleged implication in some of the killings came out to be untrue. Like for example the McGurn hit which during the old days it was generally believed that it was Morans revenge but later it was confirmed by Humphreys that it was executed by Maddox and White or in other words by the Outfit.

You see, most of the guys who were the main individuals in the St Valentines job, after that they were absorbed into the Mob, mainly the Cicero crew, obviously on Capones orders. For example, since he was a professional killer, Nugent acted as constant companion and bodyguard for Ralph Capone and followed him everywhere and Carey was often in close contact, or Fred Goetz who controlled some of the rackets in Cicero for Claude Maddox and Willie Heeney, and even Gus Winkler remained as enforcer for the Outfit on the city's North Side. According to my research everyone was killed for a different reason but my personal opinion is that the general or main reason was that Capone, their main protector and sponsor, was no longer at the top. In 1931, when Capone began having problems and became a sensation in Chicago's courts, well that same year Nugent disappeared and was never seen again. Story goes that he became uncontrolable, same story as Goetz who allegedly tried to claim independence and on top.of that, one of his close associates Verne Miller, was accused of helping gun down three policemen and a federal agent in an attempt to free bank robber Frank Nash during the infamous Kansas City Massacre and story goes that Goetz gave informations about the massacre to FBI’s Chicago field office. So in 1933 he was also murdered in a drive-by shooting and later gangster Alvin Karpis gave his opinion that Frank Nitto ordered the murder and Maddox together with Heeney delivered it. Several months later, Winkler was killed in similar fashion.

So I also believe that Carey was killed for some similar reasons but as I previously said that who knows, maybe Moran waited for Carey to loose his guard and complete the job, although I think that if it was double murder, then it was too professional. In plane words, I personally believe that it was one huge clean up

[quote=Frank post_id=61437 time=1510603265 user_id=5387]
Thanks Snakes. That was something I was wondering for awhile. So the hits that took place after the attempted Pilotto murder we're for trying to kill Capo.
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Sam Guzzino was killed for being involved in the attempted hit. Nick D'Andrea was suspected as being involved in some way by the bosses, although I don't believe that it's ever been definitively proven. Bounds, the shooter, never mentioned D'Andrea by name in his testimony. Perhaps he knew something about it, perhaps not. The Guzzino brothers probably told Bounds that the hit was sanctioned in order to get him to play along.

Villain, since the St.Valentine day massacre was mentioned in the earlier posts, in your opinion did Bob Carey actually kill himself after killing his girlfriend or is the theory about Moran killing him as revenge for the 1929 massacre, more plausible? There is a book about Moran by Rose Keefe which mentions the interview with a former North Side bootlegger, E.Barnett, who says Moran told him that he "had gone to the coast (without mentioning which coast) to take care of a guy named Bob Carey"; Barnett didn't ask for details since he didn't know back then who Carey was, but later, after hearing Carey was identified as a likely participant in the St.Valentine day massacre, theoretically it made sense for Moran to kill him.

Thanks Snakes. That was something I was wondering for awhile. So the hits that took place after the attempted Pilotto murder we're for trying to kill Capo.

No, but it was thought of as a possibility at the time.

Speaking of Pilotto, does anyone know if the Pilotto hit was sanctioned by the bosses.

Speaking of Pilotto, does anyone know if the Pilotto hit was sanctioned by the bosses.

Accardo's problems began at the beginning of 1981, and so he together with Angelo Fosco, James Caporale and Al Pilotto were taken to trial and the next year, Pilotto and Caporale were sentenced to jail, as for Accardo and Fosco, they were dismissed. Now, as Snakes already pointed out, Accardo began spending more of his time out of Chicago and as for Fosco, he remained a "giant" in the union business and took a year salary of over $100,000, which in 1986 reached to $146,000. And so story goes that large part from that cash went to Accardo, which I personally believe that it was just one of his own pension funds. So my point is that Aiuppa might've had some sort of complete independence from 1981/82 until 1984/85 when he went to prison and took some kind of role of a jailed top boss. I believe that when Aiuppa stepped on the scene as independent boss, he was the one who issued an order regarding the street taxes which were paid by the bookmakers to operate in the Chicago area, to be increased from 15 to 25%, and Dave Yaras' son, Lenny was allegedly killed because he refused to pay the extra cash

Yes, it's confusing to pinpoint when exactly Accardo stopped being the "last word" in the Outfit but it was probably by the early 80's, as he was spending a lot of time in Palm Springs by that point. As Villain pointed out, the racketeering trial probably was probably a big influence on this decision.

Aiuppa was almost independent until 1981 or 1982 or until Accardos multi-million dollar extortion trial, and obviously he didn't need every time permission from Accardo but dont forget that the old man, and possibly including Alex, was the one who groomed Aiuppa for the boss position and on top of that, Accardo was the one who gave orders to the rest of the captains to respect the new administration, and this is all documented. So whether he liked it or not, or whether anyone understands this or not, Accardo was always looked upon as his mentor, same as the relationships of the previous bosses, Fischetti, Capezio/Accardo; Ricca, Campagna/Accardo; Ricca, Accardo/Giancana and I believe that later Aiuppa groomed Carlisi for that same position and so on...I think that there were some pics of Aiuppa and Carlisi fishing somewhere and I also believe that Tornabene also showed up on one of the pics

Yes I agree Snakes

Yes, but someone of Giancana's stature would probably at least need the blessing of Accardo if not his outright permission. Aiuppa had been boss for a very short amount of time before that hit.

[quote=Frank post_id=61338 time=1510433842 user_id=5387]
Great info on the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre. Also info on Giancana hit definitely more of a in depth look at who was responsible and why. Didn't Calebrese testify that Accardo ordered the hit because Giancana wasn't paying him tribute. Maybe that was part of the reason. What I don't get he had been out of the country for about 8 years.Thats a long time he got away without paying tribute. I think like you stated they were afraid he was going to talk. No matter how you slice it Accardo had the final say, if it wasn't CIA or some other government agency.
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Aiuppa didn't need accardos approval to hit someone. I think this whole this guys the boss but someone else is pulling the strings is completely overblown. Did aiuppa consult with accardo on a lot of things? Sure he did but the whole reason accardo stepped down is because he didn't wanna be the boss anymore. He didn't wanna make the decisions on who gets what and who kills who. He wanted to stay in the background and if someone asked his opinion he would give it. If aiuppa wanted someone gone they were gone. The boss needs approval from no one that's why they are the boss

[quote=Frank post_id=61390 time=1510506367 user_id=5387]
Well it seems pretty solid seeing that they ordered his death. Also wasn't Ricca his protector.
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I would lean towards the theory that Ricca was more of a Mad Sam's protector rather than Giancana's but its possible

Well it seems pretty solid seeing that they ordered his death. Also wasn't Ricca his protector.