THE BLACK HAND FORUM

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2025 12:21 am

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2025 3:26 pm Central America? Iran? England?

Good lad. You can name places. Dont stop.

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2025 3:26 pm Central America? Iran? England?

Uforeality wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 2:09 pm

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 4:04 am

Uforeality wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2024 9:04 am As a whole, LCN in America has been so thoroughly infiltrated by Law Enforcement that what we have left is only a memory of what Italian OC used to be. Longtime informants, occasional informants and quite often, jealousy towards one another has taken a very large toll on the organization of organized crime. Let’s remember that American LCN used to have global, geopolitical power and influence. Now these crime families are mostly regional, East coast crime groups that unless you gamble or need a street loan, you probably don’t even know they exist.

I don't know about global geopolitical power....lol

National.......in a limited capacity...maybe. The carribean...Cuba?

Italy... European drug trade.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 4:04 am

Uforeality wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2024 9:04 am As a whole, LCN in America has been so thoroughly infiltrated by Law Enforcement that what we have left is only a memory of what Italian OC used to be. Longtime informants, occasional informants and quite often, jealousy towards one another has taken a very large toll on the organization of organized crime. Let’s remember that American LCN used to have global, geopolitical power and influence. Now these crime families are mostly regional, East coast crime groups that unless you gamble or need a street loan, you probably don’t even know they exist.

I don't know about global geopolitical power....lol

National.......in a limited capacity...maybe. The carribean...Cuba?

PTown wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 9:09 pm I don’t doubt that there are more softer, college-educated types in now, and that they don’t all talk in Brooklynese.

But a college degree and a lack of a street gang origin don’t make one smart. It really is largely an organization of the “why?”

I posted earlier on this thread that I read a really good book over Christmas called “Mafia Mistaken” by J. De Luca. He said in essence that the best and brightest Italian Americans used to join the mob because they couldn’t join the Boardroom or the Oval Office or the Country Club.

Now, it’s the opposite. So the ones who choose prison and death and informants and loss of freedom and always being paranoid are the ones who aren’t successful enough to make it in the Boardroom.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 5:26 pm

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 4:04 am

Uforeality wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2024 9:04 am As a whole, LCN in America has been so thoroughly infiltrated by Law Enforcement that what we have left is only a memory of what Italian OC used to be. Longtime informants, occasional informants and quite often, jealousy towards one another has taken a very large toll on the organization of organized crime. Let’s remember that American LCN used to have global, geopolitical power and influence. Now these crime families are mostly regional, East coast crime groups that unless you gamble or need a street loan, you probably don’t even know they exist.

I don't know about global geopolitical power....lol

National.......in a limited capacity...maybe. The carribean...Cuba?

During the Accardo and Giancana years, Chicago had some contacts related to gambling, hotels, and other activities with state elements in a number of countries, such as Mexico, DR, Panama, Brazil, Spain, Lebanon, and Iran. These things also get greatly exaggerated though. So far as I am aware it amounted to some partnerships with business interests in these countries and maybe some contact with intelligence services (e.g., Giancana-era links to DR caudillo Rafael Trujillo's lapdog Porfirio Rubirosa, aka "the Dominican James Bond") and politicians related to illegal rackets and legit business activities (e.g., slot machines in Spain, etc). The extent of "power" afforded by such ties, however, can be indexed by the fact that Giancana wound up getting his property expropriated when he was forcibly deported by the Mexican government.

Ivan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 8:53 pm

PTown wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 6:16 pm Now it has "dese dem doze" uneducated pretenders

I think there actually might be more high school grads and college degree holders involved now than there ever have been. Was a bunch of middle and high school dropouts in its golden age.

PTown wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 6:16 pm Now it has "dese dem doze" uneducated pretenders, mostly living within 75 miles of NYC.

PTown wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 6:16 pm Now it has "dese dem doze" uneducated pretenders

PTown wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 6:16 pm I forget if I was the source of the "Global Geopolitical Power" line. The context was: to illustrate how far the mob has fallen. As in, before, it had global geopolitical power. Now it has "dese dem doze" uneducated pretenders, mostly living within 75 miles of NYC.

Whether I was the source of the line or not, here is what was meant:

1. During WWII, the U.S. government, with the blessing of the highest in government, ASKED Lucky Luciano for help controlling subversive activities at the docks. Whether he could deliver (and how big the threat was) were both debatable. Nevertheless, the point is that the U.S. government -- generals and the Executive Branch -- asked for his help.

2. Vito Genovese was KNIGHTED by the King of Italy, into the super exclusive Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus. (OSSML). Imagine that.

3. After WWII, the U.S. government asked members of the mob to help introduce them to anti-fascists in Southern Italy.

4. During the Cold War, the CIA asked Johnny Roselli, et al, to assist with the assassination of Fidel Castro.

5. Right up through the mid-seventies, Carlo Gambino was so feared that U.S. presidents reportedly never went after him, because his control of the unions that keep America moving (dockworkers, teamsters, etc.) was so thorough, that he could shut the country down.

6. The drug trafficking operations of old often involved complex routes using contacts in Turkey, Corsica, Sicily, etc. Now it's all a lot simpler.

These are just 5-6 examples. Whether you discount 2-3 of them, I'd say it's safe to say the mob HAD genuine geopolitical power, and now it does not. That was the point. It' a pretty simple one.

Coloboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 10:00 am @Wiseguy....

I only participate sparingly in a few threads, but I've gathered that your angle on most of the board is that the mafia is mostly dead, and any speculation as to the happenings of families are overblown and exaggerated.

Unlike other forums I've perused, it seems that most of the users on this site are pretty well balanced and academic in their analysis. No one (or no one that is taken seriously) seems to be indicating that LCN in America is some huge monolith, with even a fraction of the power that it once had. It has become a niche, small, criminal network, operating amongst hundreds and thousands of other criminal organizations in the country.

With that said, do you truly believe that the FBI has 100% insight into every aspect of a crime family? Again, Chicago is the only family I really know anything about, but you seem to really cling onto the "28" made members figure from family secrets. Do you believe that law enforcement was aware of and had identified every single living and active member of the Chicago Outfit on that list? Nick Calabrese, a long time made member (something that we know is taken very seriously in that city and doesn't come easy), couldn't even confidently identity not only the succession of bosses and admin members, but wasn't even sure who all the capos were across the city. That's how tight security was/is.

I agree with your assessment that Scott B's claim of Sarno making "20-30" new members, just into the Cicero crew alone, is insane. But it is absolutely reasonable to hypothesize that at least 8-12 new guys were brought into that crew alone, a good chunk of whom we now the names of.

It is not unreasonable to assume that a secret society, dedicated to profiting from crime, and committed to hiding it's inner workings, would bring in new people to continue that organization and continue to profit. It is not as simple as saying "they had 28 members, 13 have died, and now they have 15 members." There are certainly many members of LCN, Chicago and otherwise, who have been involved their whole life, and lived and died, without ever being identified as LCN by law enforcement or the public.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 4:04 am

Uforeality wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2024 9:04 am As a whole, LCN in America has been so thoroughly infiltrated by Law Enforcement that what we have left is only a memory of what Italian OC used to be. Longtime informants, occasional informants and quite often, jealousy towards one another has taken a very large toll on the organization of organized crime. Let’s remember that American LCN used to have global, geopolitical power and influence. Now these crime families are mostly regional, East coast crime groups that unless you gamble or need a street loan, you probably don’t even know they exist.

I don't know about global geopolitical power....lol

National.......in a limited capacity...maybe. The carribean...Cuba?

PTown wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 2:58 pm

Coloboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 10:00 am
Unlike other forums I've perused, it seems that most of the users on this site are pretty well balanced and academic in their analysis.

With that said, do you truly believe that the FBI has 100% insight into every aspect of a crime family?

It is not unreasonable to assume that a secret society, dedicated to profiting from crime, and committed to hiding it's inner workings, would bring in new people to continue that organization and continue to profit. There are certainly many members of LCN, Chicago and otherwise, who have been involved their whole life, and lived and died, without ever being identified as LCN by law enforcement or the public.

Agree. Even with the differences of opinion, this is still a pretty civil site. And folks seem to know what they’re talking about, and try to back stuff up with evidence.

This is a valid point. And it’s one I’ve thought about a lot.

Do you think it’s possible to be a made member who never hits a law enforcement list?

I talk pros and cons:

In the “doubt it” side:

1. Some foolish families/bosses/captains implement “you must show up” policies. The Gambians at some point had a few of these. Those fools made it easy for law enforcement. All they needed to do was hang outside the social club where the rings were being kissed.

Could someone be a member and never really show his face around others?

2. 1/5 of the mob is either in prison or an informant. With so many informants, could someone fly beneath all radar?

On the “it’s possible” side:

1. The sheer numbers of families and bosses make me think SOMEONE somewhere had the brains to say “wow the Gotti way doesn’t work. Let’s go full opposite.”

2. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s hubris to assume otherwise.

How do I come down? I’d be curious if there are any examples of people where, after they died, a deathbed confession or an informant, or a member list, or something revealed John Q Businessman to have been a Made Man. Do we have any examples?