sicilians/corleonesi

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Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by Tmr88 » Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:52 pm

stubbs wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 10:39 am I would also recommend reading Excellent Cadavers if you want a good history of Riina and the mafia wars of that era.

The Sicilians really had a beautiful thing with their heroin pipelines and all of the systemic corruption in Italy. Riina fucked it all up and now they’re super weak, especially compared to the Calabrians.
This books so fucking great! Am reading it atm and can’t put it down.

I’ve read most books there is on the Sicilian mafia but Excellent Cadavers was better than Falcones book in terms of the info on all the bullshit he had to put up with

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by cobra » Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:38 pm

- falcone and borsellino murder + terroristic campaign has hidden agenda from services
- in one side achieved political aims
- in other side created a situation to control the mafia, change from criminal file to security file
- the services will not completely destroy the mafia, they never destroy something they can use later
- but the mafia, adter 1963 and especially under corleonesi, became exclusively a criminal phenomenon so only highly criminals want to join
- this will eventually kill it
- giovanni falcone say many times, the mafia is a human phenomenon, has a beginning, will have an end. is not invincible.

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by B. » Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:21 pm

A number of the big Sicilian pentiti also said they were too afraid to provide info on the relationship between the mafia and politicians.

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by scagghiuni » Sun Jun 23, 2024 11:48 am

Strax wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 11:16 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:17 am we should keep in mind that Riina didn't do all this shit by his own, the massacres of judges Falcone and Borsellino for example were ordered by other entithies, Berlusconi, Dell'Utri, the freemasons and the secret services
Riina just did dirty work for them, they are the real brains behind the mafia in Italy, problem is, they almost never go to prison.

Few years ago during 'Ndrangheta stragista trial Stefano Carmelo Serpa ex member of the De Stefano clan when asked about relations between Sicilian Mafia and 'Ndrangheta said: "I'm afraid, these people are very dangerous. I speak neither of the "Ndrangheta nor of politicians, but of the secret services. And before talking about the relations between 'Ndrangheta and Cosa Nostra, I want serious assurances about my security. You don't know the submerged part of the 'Ndrangheta. It means that inside there are people who have even greater power than what Paolo De Stefano had. There are characters inside that at their command were worth and still worth more than him. But these are people you don't even know. They don't even have a fine."
I think that Riina couldn't refuse to do those things because the consequences would have been worse for Cosa Nostra, but also for the other mafias

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by Strax » Sun Jun 23, 2024 11:16 am

scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:17 am we should keep in mind that Riina didn't do all this shit by his own, the massacres of judges Falcone and Borsellino for example were ordered by other entithies, Berlusconi, Dell'Utri, the freemasons and the secret services
Riina just did dirty work for them, they are the real brains behind the mafia in Italy, problem is, they almost never go to prison.

Few years ago during 'Ndrangheta stragista trial Stefano Carmelo Serpa ex member of the De Stefano clan when asked about relations between Sicilian Mafia and 'Ndrangheta said: "I'm afraid, these people are very dangerous. I speak neither of the "Ndrangheta nor of politicians, but of the secret services. And before talking about the relations between 'Ndrangheta and Cosa Nostra, I want serious assurances about my security. You don't know the submerged part of the 'Ndrangheta. It means that inside there are people who have even greater power than what Paolo De Stefano had. There are characters inside that at their command were worth and still worth more than him. But these are people you don't even know. They don't even have a fine."

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by scagghiuni » Sun Jun 23, 2024 6:59 am

CabriniGreen wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:29 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:59 am
Uncle Pete wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:53 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:17 am we should keep in mind that Riina didn't do all this shit by his own, the massacres of judges Falcone and Borsellino for example were ordered by other entithies, Berlusconi, Dell'Utri, the freemasons and the secret services
Good point. Considering how loved Falcone was, perhaps he was seen as a serious threat politically down the road
yes, what the Corleonesi did in the 80s and 90s cannot be limited to the Sicilian mafia alone, it was a wide-ranging plan that also involved politics
To do....WHAT? What was the point? They did ALL THAT just to kill Falcone?

Was it the plan of the brainyrust of the Masonry to WEAKEN the Mafia? Because that seemed to be the net result.

What was the endgame?
the endgame is a political plan that would have led to Berlusconi's victory, in fact Berlusconi and Dell'Utri are implicated in the trials of the massacres, the goal of the Freemasons was not to weaken the mafia, but to make Berlusconi win...
if Falcone and Borsellino were still alive Cosa Nostra, Ndrangheta and Camorra would probably have already disappeared, I am not convinced that the mafia made a mistake in killing them

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by CabriniGreen » Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:29 am

scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:59 am
Uncle Pete wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:53 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:17 am we should keep in mind that Riina didn't do all this shit by his own, the massacres of judges Falcone and Borsellino for example were ordered by other entithies, Berlusconi, Dell'Utri, the freemasons and the secret services
Good point. Considering how loved Falcone was, perhaps he was seen as a serious threat politically down the road
yes, what the Corleonesi did in the 80s and 90s cannot be limited to the Sicilian mafia alone, it was a wide-ranging plan that also involved politics
To do....WHAT? What was the point? They did ALL THAT just to kill Falcone?

Was it the plan of the brainyrust of the Masonry to WEAKEN the Mafia? Because that seemed to be the net result.

What was the endgame?

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by scagghiuni » Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:59 am

Uncle Pete wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:53 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:17 am we should keep in mind that Riina didn't do all this shit by his own, the massacres of judges Falcone and Borsellino for example were ordered by other entithies, Berlusconi, Dell'Utri, the freemasons and the secret services
Good point. Considering how loved Falcone was, perhaps he was seen as a serious threat politically down the road
yes, what the Corleonesi did in the 80s and 90s cannot be limited to the Sicilian mafia alone, it was a wide-ranging plan that also involved politics

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by Uncle Pete » Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:53 am

scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:17 am we should keep in mind that Riina didn't do all this shit by his own, the massacres of judges Falcone and Borsellino for example were ordered by other entithies, Berlusconi, Dell'Utri, the freemasons and the secret services
Good point. Considering how loved Falcone was, perhaps he was seen as a serious threat politically down the road

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by scagghiuni » Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:17 am

we should keep in mind that Riina didn't do all this shit by his own, the massacres of judges Falcone and Borsellino for example were ordered by other entithies, Berlusconi, Dell'Utri, the freemasons and the secret services

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by CabriniGreen » Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:38 pm

PolackTony wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:15 pm The way that I’ve always understood it is that the mafia forms a shadow state, one that presupposes the existence of the state (a certain kind of state, with specific types of patron-client relationships and patronage networks) and essentially parasitizes off of it, rather than seeking to supplant the state or create its own state. This of course makes the mafia a totally distinct phenomenon from revolutionary political groups, which seek to either outright seize control of the state apparatus or overthrow the existing apparatus and install an alternative one.
Yes! They NEED the State. This is how I perceived it. I mean.... unless they were going to like.... split Western and Eastern Sicily and create a new country? Maybe?

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by PolackTony » Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:15 pm

The way that I’ve always understood it is that the mafia forms a shadow state, one that presupposes the existence of the state (a certain kind of state, with specific types of patron-client relationships and patronage networks) and essentially parasitizes off of it, rather than seeking to supplant the state or create its own state. This of course makes the mafia a totally distinct phenomenon from revolutionary political groups, which seek to either outright seize control of the state apparatus or overthrow the existing apparatus and install an alternative one.

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by B. » Fri Jun 21, 2024 7:50 pm

CabriniGreen wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:26 pm
B. wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:33 pm
cobra wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:09 pm - riina now blame for all murders but...
- stefano bontate killed after he try and fail to set riina in a trap and kill him
- giovanni bontate is happy with murder of his brother stefano
- salvatore montalto, underboss of inzerillo, is happy about inzerillo murder
- nino madonia telling riina he must kill pino greco for years before
- many other example, they tell "uncle toto" to kill and when everybody jailed, they say "u curtu" is a violent
100%.

Riina the Terrible makes for a popular narrative and the guy was responsible or a lot of death and terror but many of the murders attributed to him came from internal factionalism. This happens with every mafia war, where members within a Family take advantage of the instability to try and gain power. It happened in Villabate in the 1920s, where the D'Agati-Profaci clan was involved in the wider Palermo war going on at the time but it was actually a rival faction within the Villabate Family who killed Giulio D'Agati and Domenico Profaci. Same thing happened during the Castellammarese War with many Families.

I've said the same about Scarfo recently. The Testa murder for example came from other members close to Testa trying to convince Scarfo to kill Testa for a long time before Scarfo relented and approved it.

Whether you consider Riina and his cronies alone, or the Corleonesi as a collective whole they amounted to abject failure. What was their endgame? To secede and form their own State? That's nonsense bro... that's not Mafia. That's some Taliban type shit.... Direct challenge to the State? Thats like....Cartel style even...

I do agree that guy's like Bontade and Inzerillo made really boneheaded moves that all but granted their enemies permission to act against them. Even the Montreal stuff. Scoppa alluded to this in the book. That it more tit for tat murders and settling scores than coordinated mass conspiracies. Excluding Vito, the "Grappa Table" seems to have fucked MANY guys outta either their livihood, or years of their lives or BOTH. They couldn't wait for an excuse....


I agree with Dicke's assessment. That the Mafia in its most effective form essentially operate like vassals for the State. An instrument of local government.

Everything Ndrangheta built from the mid 90s onward probably should have been Cosa Nostras.

Bro.. I've said it before...to me... the 70s marked a period where Cosa Nostra's strategy started to become more....corporate. More business minded, more divorced from specific territory/geography. You can't become a GLOBAL criminal power corrupting the LOCAL budget of your municipalities, even if your city is huge.

Ndrangheta, to me seemed to take what the Caruanas did and applied it wholesale to MANY clans.
I disagree that forming their own quasi-statehood is not mafia. The Sicilian mafia going back to the 1800s strived to be its own government independent of the legitimate state.

But my point wasn't about the mafia's larger intentions in the 1980s or whether they succeeded, it was just that Riina wasn't the one pushing for a lot of these murders and many of them came from within as people realized that allying with the Corleonesi gave them the opportunity to take out rivals and gain power like Cobra said.

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by CornerBoy » Fri Jun 21, 2024 6:21 am

all the names get very confusing.

Re: sicilians/corleonesi

by CabriniGreen » Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:26 pm

B. wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:33 pm
cobra wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:09 pm - riina now blame for all murders but...
- stefano bontate killed after he try and fail to set riina in a trap and kill him
- giovanni bontate is happy with murder of his brother stefano
- salvatore montalto, underboss of inzerillo, is happy about inzerillo murder
- nino madonia telling riina he must kill pino greco for years before
- many other example, they tell "uncle toto" to kill and when everybody jailed, they say "u curtu" is a violent
100%.

Riina the Terrible makes for a popular narrative and the guy was responsible or a lot of death and terror but many of the murders attributed to him came from internal factionalism. This happens with every mafia war, where members within a Family take advantage of the instability to try and gain power. It happened in Villabate in the 1920s, where the D'Agati-Profaci clan was involved in the wider Palermo war going on at the time but it was actually a rival faction within the Villabate Family who killed Giulio D'Agati and Domenico Profaci. Same thing happened during the Castellammarese War with many Families.

I've said the same about Scarfo recently. The Testa murder for example came from other members close to Testa trying to convince Scarfo to kill Testa for a long time before Scarfo relented and approved it.

Whether you consider Riina and his cronies alone, or the Corleonesi as a collective whole they amounted to abject failure. What was their endgame? To secede and form their own State? That's nonsense bro... that's not Mafia. That's some Taliban type shit.... Direct challenge to the State? Thats like....Cartel style even...

I do agree that guy's like Bontade and Inzerillo made really boneheaded moves that all but granted their enemies permission to act against them. Even the Montreal stuff. Scoppa alluded to this in the book. That it more tit for tat murders and settling scores than coordinated mass conspiracies. Excluding Vito, the "Grappa Table" seems to have fucked MANY guys outta either their livihood, or years of their lives or BOTH. They couldn't wait for an excuse....


I agree with Dicke's assessment. That the Mafia in its most effective form essentially operate like vassals for the State. An instrument of local government.

Everything Ndrangheta built from the mid 90s onward probably should have been Cosa Nostras.

Bro.. I've said it before...to me... the 70s marked a period where Cosa Nostra's strategy started to become more....corporate. More business minded, more divorced from specific territory/geography. You can't become a GLOBAL criminal power corrupting the LOCAL budget of your municipalities, even if your city is huge.

Ndrangheta, to me seemed to take what the Caruanas did and applied it wholesale to MANY clans.

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