Gangland 1/11/2024

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Expand view Topic review: Gangland 1/11/2024

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by SonnyBlackstein » Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:06 am

Southshore88 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 3:01 pm Sonny, who said he was a captain when he was shelved?

Johnny said, guys come off the shelf and then are made captain.
My misunderstanding. Apologies.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by Southshore88 » Fri Jan 19, 2024 3:01 pm

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:42 am
aray22 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:20 pm
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:19 pm
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:37 pm In the old days there were guys who would rather have been wacked than to live in disgrace on the shelf. Nowadays you have guys who are on the shelf then come off and become captains!

Never ever heard of a guy on the shelf keeping a title seems like an oxymoronic scenario.
Is that what happened with Grillo from the Gambinos?
Yes.
Grillo wasn't a captain when he was shelved.
Sonny, who said he was a captain when he was shelved?

Johnny said, guys come off the shelf and then are made captain.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by PolackTony » Fri Jan 19, 2024 9:03 am

B. wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 8:40 pm. In Sicily they call it "posato", meaning "posed", as in the guy is frozen and can't move.
“Posed” (like how one would do a mannequin) is one meaning of the Italian verb posare, others being “to rest”, “to put an object somewhere”, or “to lay something down”. One can see how the different uses of the word relate to the concept of being put on the shelf.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by PolackTony » Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:56 am

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:45 am
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:58 pm I mean...look at Vitale. He was basically shelved, WITH his title...
He was ostracized within his own family to a degree but he could still interact with members from his other families. On the shelf means no one in the entirety of LCN can or should.
Yeah, I think it’s important to also emphasize that a guy just getting sidelined or getting the cold shoulder isn’t the same thing as being shelved, which is a change in a member’s relationship to the organization (as you note, meaning the entire network rather than just the member’s Family). It’s a change in a guy’s status, formally, what anthropologists call a “social death”: exile, loss of one’s identity and place in their community and social network (similar to how the making ceremony is a symbolic death and rebirth into a new “life” as a “man”). As B noted, this is how Michael D has characterized it. It’s the next thing to clipping a guy. In recent years, given the decline in mob murders, it’s also presumably used a lot more than in the past I’d think. Like, 40 years ago they’d have just whacked a guy out, but now they are much more likely to shelve him.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by johnny_scootch » Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:45 am

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:58 pm I mean...look at Vitale. He was basically shelved, WITH his title...
He was ostracized within his own family to a degree but he could still interact with members from his other families. On the shelf means no one in the entirety of LCN can or should.
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:42 am Grillo wasn't a captain when he was shelved.
Yes that's correct but no one was insinuating that. I just stated that these days guys can go from total disgrace to a captain which would never happen in the old days.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by SonnyBlackstein » Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:42 am

aray22 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:20 pm
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:19 pm
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:37 pm In the old days there were guys who would rather have been wacked than to live in disgrace on the shelf. Nowadays you have guys who are on the shelf then come off and become captains!

Never ever heard of a guy on the shelf keeping a title seems like an oxymoronic scenario.
Is that what happened with Grillo from the Gambinos?
Yes.
Grillo wasn't a captain when he was shelved.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by CabriniGreen » Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:58 pm

I mean...look at Vitale. He was basically shelved, WITH his title...

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by aray22 » Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:20 pm

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:19 pm
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:37 pm In the old days there were guys who would rather have been wacked than to live in disgrace on the shelf. Nowadays you have guys who are on the shelf then come off and become captains!

Never ever heard of a guy on the shelf keeping a title seems like an oxymoronic scenario.
Is that what happened with Grillo from the Gambinos?
Yes.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by CabriniGreen » Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:19 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:37 pm In the old days there were guys who would rather have been wacked than to live in disgrace on the shelf. Nowadays you have guys who are on the shelf then come off and become captains!

Never ever heard of a guy on the shelf keeping a title seems like an oxymoronic scenario.
Is that what happened with Grillo from the Gambinos?

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by B. » Thu Jan 18, 2024 8:40 pm

Yeah as DiLeonardo has said, being shelved is basically a form of death. At least while it is in effect, as they've always taken guys on and off the shelf and they can return in good standing afterward. In Sicily they call it "posato", meaning "posed", as in the guy is frozen and can't move.

It was during his testimony in the Asaro trial where Vitale explained how a shelved member can keep his rank and how being shelved isn't the same as "breaking" someone from their rank. He said when someone like this is taken off the shelf, he resumes his rank as before. I just don't know of any examples where it's happened.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by johnny_scootch » Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:37 pm

In the old days there were guys who would rather have been wacked than to live in disgrace on the shelf. Nowadays you have guys who are on the shelf then come off and become captains!

Never ever heard of a guy on the shelf keeping a title seems like an oxymoronic scenario.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by B. » Thu Jan 18, 2024 3:15 pm

Based on what Pennisi has shared, even shelved members have continued to socialize with members, Frank Lastorino and the guy he met at Dom Truscello's house being examples. We also have that story about the shelved Colombo member who still attended a wedding (or was it funeral?) attended by a bunch of members. Obviously it depends on why they are shelved and they now have strict limitations placed on them either way, their membership not being recognized, but this is still the world they live in.

Sal Vitale said guys can be shelved and still keep their title in the Family which threw me for a loop. I don't know of any examples where a captain or admin member is shelved and keeps his rank but Vitale made it a point of saying that happens. Vitale himself was sort of an example though I don't think he was officially shelved. Many sources have said being shelved is often temporary so that is probably a factor. Some guys of course are permanently shelved.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by johnny_scootch » Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:43 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:23 pm It’s important to distinguish between activity in specific criminal activity and membership. As a member, one can live remotely, one can be “retired” from an active leadership role in the organization, and one can be totally uninvolved in organized criminal rackets. But a member is always a member,
This is exactly correct, people have trouble separating criminal activity from membership.
B. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 7:40 pm Listen to Scootch about these things. He has a great understanding of the protocol, rules, and social dynamics of the mafia.
I appreciate the kind words.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by aray22 » Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:52 pm

Pmac2 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:39 am Taking a guess Conte moved his family to Vegas. I believe he was doing time out west to. Pennisi said he had a bookie/drug guy paying him tribute his whole 20yr bid. I'd bet he still active out there. Lotta of guys out there
That was Frank Papagni, not George Conte.

Re: Gangland 1/11/2024

by B. » Wed Jan 17, 2024 7:40 pm

Listen to Scootch about these things. He has a great understanding of the protocol, rules, and social dynamics of the mafia.

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